Are women allowed to Preach?

[Ralph-]

Please post the Scripture where elders, pastors, and overseers are conflated to one office, or even mentioned together.

I was not conflating them.

 

[Dino246]

Teaching with authority belongs to elders/pastors/overseers. Paul says women are not to be appointed to that office because of the order God has ordained in creation.

Don't confuse that with the privilege all of us have to teach one another outside of the office of elder/pastor/overseer.

I am not a pastor. So what are you talking about my 'perceived authority'? The authority I'm defending is the authority of the man who is called to the office of elder/pastor/overseer.

I was not conflating them.

You wrote "the office" (singular) of elder/pastor/overseer" twice. I suggest you rethink that last comment.

 

[Ralph-]

PS. I am no liberal feminist. I abandoned that long ago, when I saw the untold damage they were doing to the family and society. But, I do read and study Greek. If the Greek said men were only to be in authority, I would submit to the Word of God on this.

But, it does not say that only men can be pastors or in authority, anywhere in the Greek. As for English, well, I think I have posted enough about that, and only gotten nonsense like because Bullinger, a heretic, says a certain verse is "he" even though Greek says no such thing.

Someone is going to have to prove to me from the Greek that men have authority and only men can be pastors. And no one can, because it just isn't there! It is translations that continue to push this terrible bias, and the terrible excesses and abuse of power in the church, that the English, unfortunately, has brought! And the verses are obscure, and disputed, and so few of them to construct such a major doctrine.

Which of these 28 translations accurately represent the Greek? (Click link)

1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

 

[Ralph-]

You wrote "the office" (singular) of elder/pastor/overseer" twice. I suggest you rethink that last comment.

"the offices of elder/pastor/overseer"

There, fixed it for you, so there is no more misunderstanding.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

[FONT=&quot]Mathew 20:25-28

Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”[/FONT]

 

[Dino246]

"the offices of elder/pastor/overseer"

There, fixed it for you, so there is no more misunderstanding.

Better... now we're making progress.

Next, since you have acknowledged that Scripture does not conflate these three, please post the Scripture that says "pastor" is an "office" (or any cognate).

 

[lightbearer]

.... as the AV now appears to me as one, though oh so elegant in its speech, to be the more culpable suspect.

Thanks for the Testimony!

Years ago we had Lab/husky. Best dog I ever had. She was a rescue which came with a surprise 2 1/2 months later. 8 of the 9 puppies went back to the Humane society. They were theirs since she got serviced there; so to speak. So Coco and Midnight had the run of the house until we got home.

So sits my chair with all it's accessories. All my reference books and bibles neatly stacked at it's side for my convenience. 20 or so; which usually ended up before me as I laid on the floor in devotion studying the Word of GOD.

Coming home one evening from work entering into the living to a not so pleasant surprise. There in the middle of the floor piled up rather symmetrically were all my collection the only ones that were not tore apart if memory serves me correctly was my KJV Bible, A Strongs, and a Clear Word translation with it's corner chewed off. As if they started into it and it did not set well with them. In retrospect I felt the same way when I was chewing on it in my Devotional time.

All translations have issues my friend. The KJV is difficult for quit a few due to the time it was written. I was weaned on it and for the most part it is the main version in my devotional life. But when digging deeper I prefer Interlinears and literal translations like J. P. Greens. (links provided)

Once again thanks for the testimony I really enjoyed it!

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Which of these 28 translations accurately represent the Greek? (Click link)

1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Are "you people" aware that there are other verses in the Bible?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Which of these 28 translations accurately represent the Greek? (Click link)

1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

None of them really convey the meaning of αὐθεντέω. I wouldn't allow a man in a church to act this way towards me.

37.21 αὐθεντέω: to control in a domineering manner—‘to control, to domineer.’ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω … αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός ‘I do not allow women … to dominate men’ 1 Tm 2.12. ‘To control in a domineering manner’ is often expressed idiomatically, for example, ‘to shout orders at,’ ‘to act like a chief toward,’ or ‘to bark at.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996, c1989). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (1:473). New York: United Bible societies.​

 

[Angela53510]

Which of these 28 translations accurately represent the Greek? (Click link)

1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Umm, let's see!

None of them!

If you want to read a Greek exegesis of this passage from 1 Tim. 2:8-15, try Word Biblical Commentary #46 Pastoral Epistles, by William D. Mounce. He was my Greek professor. Pages 94 to 149.

Mounce notes on page 126, that

"The translation of "authentein" is the crux of the passage. Authentein is difficult to define."

In fact, a good deal of the people he quotes say this word means "to domineer." I have no problem with that translation, because it is wrong for one Christian to domineer another, men or women. The trouble is, because of an issue with this word, the reverse has happened through the church, where men dominate women, and other men, for that matter!

"The question of the meaning of the word "authentein" is not insignificant. If it means "to exercise authority over" [which breaks the rules grammar,] then Paul is prohibiting any type of authoritative teaching that places a women over a man. [Over is added, my addition!] If it means "to domineer" in a negative sense, then it is preventing a certain type of authoritative teaching, one that is administered in a negative, domineering, coercive way, thus leaving the door open for women to exercise teaching authority in a proper way over men." pg. 128

Of course there is much, much more, quotes and discussions of each word, and lots more on authentein. For instance, he quotes HS Baldwin and his survey of every known use of both didaskilos (teaching) and authentein, in existence.

In the end, despite all the difficulties, Mounce decides to side with roles and authentein meaning "exercise authority" while acknowledging it is an extremely difficult matter. I then talked to him a bunch in class about this, respectfully, and he agreed while I might be right, he has chosen the other side. Now, I respect him and his choices, but even he acknowledges the whole discussion of women in authority rests on one word "authentein" which is found no where else in the Bible, and at least 2 meanings in secular sources, being either "exercise authority" or "to domineer."

So, do you really think after all the research, both reading Greek commentaries, and actually talking with a Greek professor in class about the translational issues and biases, that posting some English translations are going to make me change my mind?

As I said, let's exegete the Greek! Oh wait, you can't! You have to rely on a bunch of English translation from men who have been brought up from childhood to not only believe in the divine right of men, but the divine right of kings. And how more complementarian men, brought up with this presupposition continue to reinforce this issue in English translations.

I always remember my theology prof in seminary. He had been a missionary in China, for many years, and spoke Mandarin fluently. In a nearby city, a Chinese woman, a graduate of the seminary was planting Mandarin churches like mad. He was asked to supervise the churches, because of his understanding of the language and culture. He was shocked, when he found only women preaching. When he asked about it, they said, "The men don't want to, and feel the women talk better, and know the bible better." He came to the conclusion that he had been culturally biased, especially after trying to interest the men in preaching, and they would not. So, the women continued to preach, and the churches continued to grow!

So, these verses really are cultural, and the translational issues are many. So, I will read you the final conclusion that Bill Mounce gives in the Word Biblical Commentary on this loaded passage.

"The good news of the kingdom, is that it does not matter what function a person performs. What matters is repentance from sin, entrance into the kingdom, and living out one's salvation as a regenerated human being of equal worth with all members of the same body, regardless of role. With this, all biblical egalitarians and complimentarians can agree!" pg. 148.

Please, no more posting English versions, I am well read on the topic, and I have discussed this whole issue extensively with one of the top Greek translators on the planet, and we agreed to disagree! I will do the same with you, except of course, you are not agreeing to disagree, as my Greek professor did, and so respectfully, considering I was the student, and he is someone who has studied the Bible and Greek since childhood, his father having also been a Greek commentator.

Got it? No English!


[Square brackets my commentary.]

 

[Ralph-]

Mathew 20:25-28

Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Wonderful.

Now, how does this make it so women can be in authority over men in the church?


Peter shows us that those who are in authority over the congregation entrusted to them not lord it over them, so we know the matter of 'lording it over another' is not a matter of having authority over another vs. not having authority over another.

 

[Ralph-]

Umm, let's see!

None of them!

My point exactly.


I will read the rest of your post later.

 

[Magenta]

 

[lightbearer]

I like the ABP a lot. don't know if they dropped the ball. That word can mean either depending on the immediate or surrounding context.

They weren't consistent. Starting in verse eight with the thought they translated ἄνδρας men rather than husband. Verse 5 is good place to start. It says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."(1Ti 2:5 KJV)


Men in this verse is ἀνθρώπων. Which is not gender specific and means mankind; manfaced. So the context is humanity is it not?

Nothing in the immediate context even hints that Paul through the Spirit went from speaking about mankind. Men and women in general; to the subject being wives and husbands.

Unless I am missing something. What see you brother?

Anyone please feel free to chime in. Not that anyone needs permission...lol

 

[Ralph-]

Next, since you have acknowledged that Scripture does not conflate these three, please post the Scripture that says "pastor" is an "office" (or any cognate).

Ephesians 4:11

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

They weren't consistent. Starting in verse eight with the thought they translated ἄνδρας men rather than husband. Verse 5 is good place to start. It says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."(1Ti 2:5 KJV)

Men in this verse is ἀνθρώπων. Which is not gender specific and means mankind; manfaced. So the context is humanity is it not?

Nothing in the immediate context even hints that Paul through the Spirit went from speaking about mankind. Men and women in general; to the subject being wives and husbands.

Unless I am missing something. What see you brother?

Anyone please feel free to chime in. Not that anyone needs permission...lol

I'm not saying one way or the other. Just investigating possibilities. Paul does get very specific in verse 15 that he is referring to wives. I think it's reasonable to back that context up two more verses. Where to stop? Don't know.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

None of them really convey the meaning of αὐθεντέω. I wouldn't allow a man in a church to act this way towards me.

37.21 αὐθεντέω: to control in a domineering manner—‘to control, to domineer.’ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω … αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός ‘I do not allow women … to dominate men’ 1 Tm 2.12. ‘To control in a domineering manner’ is often expressed idiomatically, for example, ‘to shout orders at,’ ‘to act like a chief toward,’ or ‘to bark at.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996, c1989). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (1:473). New York: United Bible societies.​

Nothing in the immediate context even hints that Paul through the Spirit went from speaking about mankind. Men and women in general; to the subject being wives and husbands.

Unless I am missing something. What see you brother?

Look at my post above your post that I'm replying to. From my experience women typically don't act that way towards men, but I have seen wives act like that towards their husbands. Just another point to consider.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

This makes a lot more sense. Because it could well be wives causing a problem, and dealing with it, and the husbands being part of helping them grow and learn.

And finally a translation that uses “to domineer” for authentein in verses 12. That is what it means, and it is in the infinitive form, not the nonsense with turning a verb into a noun, adding a verb and a preposition, like most translations do since the KJV.

Plus, the context of Timothy is Ephesus, not the modern church. He was talking about some very real problems in the church there, and it was not just women that were the problem. He outright condemned Alexander and Hymaneus. Cast them out of the church. And yet, no one ever worries about the damage men can do in a church, although cumulatively, men have done so much more damage than women, from the RCC to evangelical pastors dallying and using their positions to sleep with teenage girls.

“Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.” 1 Tim. 1:20

Perhaps we need a 60 or 100 page thread on what did Hymenaeus and Alexander did, that was so bad, and how it applies to every single man, today! We won’t even get into the context of what was happening in Ephesus, with regards to goddess worship of Artemis, which is clearly laid out in Acts 19:24-35.

Besides, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus are called the “pastoral” Epistles for a reason! Paul is writing to encourage these pastors, and to help them deal with problems within their churches. None of these books was about an all time prohibition on women speaking and preaching, if they were properly qualified and prepared, as someone like Prisca (Priscilla) was. Just another example of male dominance and misogny in the church, and how men seeking power use these out of context and mistranslated verses to pursue their own evil agendas.

History has always been my subject.

You'll notice that discussion of historical context (and language) in these matters has been thoroughly resisted by the more extreme male power-trippers because it blows their position to smithereens. It's the preferred method to dismiss information and accuse others of denying scripture and disobeying God. They puff themselves up and cry "It's God's command!" with all manner of [presumed] "authority". I'm not sure it would be possible to "teach" anything to people with that attitude....... even if we were allowed to

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Wonderful.

Now, how does this make it so women can be in authority over men in the church?


Peter shows us that those who are in authority over the congregation entrusted to them not lord it over them, so we know the matter of 'lording it over another' is not a matter of having authority over another vs. not having authority over another.

I'm not trying to be in "authority over" men in church or anywhere else. You sound insecure.

 

[jaybird88]

Here is this entire debate in a nutshell. God has issued much greater authority unto man in the society and in the church as opposed to the woman. This is demonstrated within many, many verses in the Bible. However many are not willing to acknowledge these clear differences in authority as defined by God, so they will attempt anything and everything to try to nullify the authority structure God has clearly given. Normally, it is women who do not wish to properly acknowledge God's authority structure due their desire to be equal in authority with man, but there are also some very weak men willing to give up the authority God has given unto them as demonstrated within these pages.

there are also those that refuse to look at scripture that completely blow up their micky mouse doctrines.

Paul is such a great teacher, it is such a shame that because of the way he writes, some people cant handle it and it carries them way off into left field. you have to have common sense to read Paul. here is a good rule of thumb to follow with Paul, if something he teaches can not be confirmed anywhere else in scripture, you are without out a doubt misunderstanding Paul. how many places outside the Pauline literature do we find no women teachers, the answer would be ZERO. if the answer is zero its usually a good indicator to stop beating the dead horse.