correct my summary

[GraceBeUntoYou]

This is a re-post of a statement I made just a couple days ago concerning the same arguments set forth on these forums. The posting was actually directed towards a certain forum user, so there may be portions there not directed towards you. This is to help clear up the Oneness controversy, since it seems some didn't see the post. Be sure to read it all, and you'll get a clearer picture of the argument as a whole:

First, let me tell you that what I’m about to proclaim is going to make you really, really upset, or it is going to be really, really insightful.

In a previous post you said, ‘You can refute modalism all you want I am not a modalist, and that is not what Ricke was teaching.’ I contend that this is precisely what is being taught by you, and Ricke. Sequential modalism may differ than the view that Oneness Pentecostals hold true to, but regardless, you agree that God is one in Person, with three distinct personalities, thus you are a modalist. Of course, there are different forms of modalism, such as, Patripassianism, which Oneness Pentecostals deny, but all Oneness groups (whether you be a Oneness Pentecostal, or Patripassianist) are considered modalists. Modalism is simply the belief that God is one in Person. David Bernard, a Oneness advocate, even said, "Modalism is the same as the modern doctrine of Oneness." (the Oneness of God p.318 ).

I find it almost fascinating that some Jehovah Witnesses, as well as some Mormons, but not always, make the false accusation that Trinitarian’s actually adhere to Oneness theology, that is, most often, believe that we think Jesus is the Father, and the Holy Spirit is the Son, and every other combination of the sort. Then it comes to Oneness proponents, and they accuse the Trinitarian of tri-theism, which is actually a Mormon view of God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all separate, and individual Gods, no unity), but it is even evident, that Mormons are actually more polytheistic, in their belief that they too can achieve a status equivalent to God, and that they too could rule over planet(s). And then we have the Trinitarian caught in the center of the cross hairs of fire, waving that big red flag, saying, ‘No, no, no, and no… that’s not what we believe, you’ve got it all wrong!’ The Jehovah Witnesses, the Mormons, and the Oneness folks don’t quite get their accusations right at all. So here I am, holding that big red flag. Let me share with you what a Trinitarian is, and what a Trinitarian is not.

• A Trinitarian is totally Monotheistic, that is, the belief in One God (please note the difference between One Being, and One Person). Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 45:18, James 2:19
  
  
• A Trinitarian believes that the Scripture declares that the Father is 100% God (Galatians 1:1, Romans 1:7, 1 Corinthians 1:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 1:2; 3), that the Son is 100% God (Isaiah 48:11-16, Hebrews 1:8-12, John 1:1-14, Colossians 1:13-17, Revelation 22:12-16), and that the Holy Spirit is 100% God (Acts 5:1-5, Job 33:4, Psalms 139:7-8, Hebrews 9:14, Acts 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 21:11, 1 Timothy 4:1, Hebrews 3:7)

• A Trinitarian believes that the Father is Eternal, that the Word (Christ before His manifestation) is Eternal, and that the Spirit is Eternal. That is, Christ as the Eternal Word pre-existed with the Father, as well as the Holy Spirit.

• A Trinitarian believes that God exists in three Persons revealed to us as the Father, Son, and Spirit, and that they are One in Being and in purpose, that is, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit make up a tri-unity (Trinity). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist in unity in the Godhead.

• A Trinitarian does not believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate, or distinct Beings (not to be confused with Persons).

• The Doctrine of the Trinity teaches that there is One Being, that is God. Not that there’s three Being that are One Being. Nor does it teach that there is One Person that is three Persons. The Trinity is One Being that is God, three Persons that fully share that Divine Being.

(Continued...)

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

(Continuation...)

The argumentation you set forth is not what is considered exegesis, that is, drawing an interpretation from the text. Rather, you use eisegesis-- introducing ones own ideas, reading it into the text.

You give an explanation of what you believe, and you try to make the text fit around your ideas, but you haven’t actually exegeted any passages that confirms anything that you’ve said. Never does the Scripture identify the Father as the Son, the Son as the Father, or the Holy Spirit as the Son. Passages such as John 10:30 do not identify the Father as the Son, or the Son as the Father, or teach that they are the same Person, rather, the same in Being. In short, you confess that as a human, Jesus is distinct, but prior to His manifestation in the flesh, He existed as the Father (the key difference between Patripassianist modalism, and Oneness Pentecostal modalism). And because that is the root of your argument, that is the root in which I must rebut.

Isaiah 48:12-16
‘Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.’ – Isaiah 48:12-16

To make this straight forward, follow the personal pronouns in the bold. Notice the difference in language used, ‘I,’ ‘Me,’ ‘Him,’ ‘He.’ The speaker has claimed that He Himself is the first, and the last, and has claimed ownership over all creation. But yet, this same Person speaks of a ‘He,’ and a ‘Him,’ that is, someone other than the speaker. Notice, the Person speaking did not say, ‘I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and I will make his ways successful.’ Rather, He says, ‘…and He will make his ways successful.’ This very same Person says, ‘…the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.’ May I submit to you, that the One speaking here is the pre-incarnate Lord Jesus Christ, the Eternal Word, the Alpha and the Omega, and He is referring to being sent by the Father.

To reaffirm that this is indeed Christ speaking, refer to Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 22:14-16 where Christ claims to be the first, and the last. Also, see Hebrews 1:8-12, which is the Father’s proclamation of the Son, ‘…YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS… .’ The ‘He,’ ‘Him,’ and ‘Lord GOD’ that is made mention here in Isaiah 48 is clearly in reference to the Father, whom has sent the ‘Me,’ ‘the first and the last,’ that is, Christ.

May I suggest, that if Jesus is the Father, He wouldn’t speak of another as ‘He,’ and ‘Him,’ and ‘Lord GOD.’ If Jesus was the Father before His pre-incarnation, He would have said something on the lines of, ‘…From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there And now I, the first and the last, am coming in the flesh.’

John 1:1-2, 18
‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.’ – John 1:1-2 (NASB)

Key term to take note of here is ‘pros,’ otherwise, ‘with.’ The term ‘pros’ is a preposition (Ex: The pen is on the floor; The cat is under the bed; My shoes are beside the couch) which means, ‘toward,’ ‘together,’ ‘near,’ ‘with,’ that is, ‘face-to-face’ with another. A couple examples from Scripture include:

Mark 2:2, ‘And many were gathered together [pros], so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them.’

Luke 6:11, But they themselves were filled with rage, and discussed together [pros] what they might do to Jesus.
​

It is evident that what we have in John 1:1-2 is an interpersonal relationship between the Word and God. The phrase, ‘…kai ho logos en pros ton theon,’ that is, ‘…and the Word was with God,’ demonstrates the distinct personage of the pre-existent Word. This is also demonstrated in John 17:5, where Christ said, ‘Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.’

‘No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.’ – John 1:18 (ESV)

I contest that John 1:18 can not be understood outside the lens of the Doctrine of the Trinity. According to the Old Testament, clearly, men have seen God:

Genesis 32:24-30, “Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob's thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him. Then he said, ‘Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.’ But he said, ‘I will not let you go unless you bless me.’ So he said to him, ‘What is your name?’ And he said, ‘Jacob.’ He said, ‘Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.’ Then Jacob asked him and said, ‘Please tell me your name.’ But he said, ‘Why is it that you ask my name?’ And he blessed him there. So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, ‘I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.’”

Joshua 5:13-15, “Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, ‘Are you for us or for our adversaries?’ He said, ‘No; rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the LORD.’ And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, ‘What has my lord to say to his servant?’ The captain of the LORD'S host said to Joshua, ‘Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.’ And Joshua did so.”

Job 42:5, “Then Job answered the LORD and said, ‘I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge? Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me. I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You;”
​

And yet, no man has ever seen the Father, for the Scriptures say, ‘Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father’ (John 6:46), and ‘And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form’ (John 5:37).

Amos 4, Genesis 18 & 19, and John 8 – The Consistency
I’ll be first to say that I don’t take the most common Trinitarian approach to Genesis 18, which usually teaches that the three men that appeared before Abraham as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

In Genesis 18, you’ll recall that ‘Ieue,’ that is the Hebrew term used for ‘Yahweh’ aka ‘LORD’ in most of our Bible translations, appeared before Abraham (v. 1). Since we can conclude that no one has seen the Father, might I suggest that since Jesus is a distinct Person from the Father, it was the pre-incarnate Christ that had appeared before Abraham, with two angels. It was the pre-incarnate Christ that Abraham pleaded with, and it was the pre-incarnate Christ, the Eternal Word that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Cross reference Genesis 18, with what Christ said in John 8:56-58, ‘Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad. So the Jews said to Him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.’”

With that being said, Genesis 19 takes into account the grand destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and in v. 24-25 it declares, ‘Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.’ That is, two Persons that are named Yahweh, one on earth, which appeared before Abraham, and the other in Heaven. Likewise, Amos 4:10-11 also declares,

“‘I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me,’ declares the LORD. ‘I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me,’ declares the LORD.”

Revelation 5:1-7
“I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, ‘Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?’ And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; and one of the elders said to me, ‘Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.’ And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.”

Revelation 5:1-7 portrays the Father sitting on the throne with a sealed book, along with another that is standing in the midst of the elders, the Lamb, whom takes the book out of the hands of the One sitting on the throne – a clear distinction.

Putting the Finish Over the Paint – The Conclusion
Since there is clear distinction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, there is only one way that is expressed in the Scripture that can present God as One, and I contend that the Scripture clearly portrays through unity (added: that is, Tri-UNITY).

Paul wrote in the book of Galatians that, ‘There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus’ (Galatians 3:28). That is, that the Church, the Body of Christ are in unity, unified together as one Body. Not literal ‘one body,’ but a unified Body. Jesus compared the unity between the Church as to the unity with He and His Father when He said,

John 17: 9-11, ‘I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.’ John 17 goes onto say in verses 22 and 23, ‘The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.’
​

Christ prayed for His Sheep, He said, ‘…may they be one even as We are (v. 11)… that they may be one, just as We are one (v. 22)… that they may be perfected in unity (v. 23)… .’ That is what the Scripture clearly says, and clearly hints at throughout (refer to Deuteronomy 6:4, Genesis 2:24, John 10:30, Galatians 3:28, and John 17:9-11, 22-23).

‘Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.’ – John 17:5

 

[ed]

Paul stated that Abraham was the Father of asll those who had not been circumcised but believed in order that righteousness might be credited to them. So I suppose Abraham could be called an everlasting Father.

I in no way diminish that Christ is the eternal Son of God and that the very nature of the Father is on Christ. But we do need to be careful when reading scripture and jumping to conclusions

Hi livingbygrace,
Thank you very much for this scripture. It certainly is spot on.
love
edwin

 

[ed]

I am not comforted by your words. I believe that you may be looking to hold me to doctrines that I do not believe by interpreting my words in ways that I do not mean.

Hi charisenexcelcis,
The post you wrote was number 56. Your total and completed sentence reads; " I have no problem saying that the Son of God came in the flesh. "
I understood you to mean that the Son of God came in the flesh.

Can you explain to me how I am interpreting your words in ways that you do not mean?
love
edwin.

 

[VW]

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


could you address this please?

why did you omit this in your prior post? which translation are you using?

The NASB. I quoted the entire relevant passage earlier.

 

[VW]

thanks living by Grace.
Spurgeon's attempt to explain this proves my point.

the twisting required there makes TWO FATHERS. the Old Father apparently went somewhere and the Son is now the NEW Father???? When Jesus supposedly "became" the Father, what happened to The Son?

or is Jesus, after the New Covenant a Step-Father, or Godfather or some new breed of Father? is the Father now the Son? HUH?

i wanted to know why Isaiah 9:6 verse is ALWAYS EDITED by those who DENY THAT JESUS IS THE GREAT I AM - Spurgeon's explanation is absurd. it is given as an attempt to needlesly justify a TRINITY instead of just understanding with simplicity THE GODHEAD.call it a Trinity if you want to - but not if it leads to IDOLATRY. there are NOT 3 GODS.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

i just can't seem to get a straight answer using ONE verse.


does this or does this NOT say Jesus is the Everlasting Father?

Jesus Himself said He is I AM.
He also told the Pharisees if they didn't believe it, they would die in their sins.

In order for anyone to RECEIVE an INHERITENCE, the ONE with the TESTAMENT (WILL) has to DIE!


John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

In KJV it says as you quote. In the NASB it says Mighty God.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

The Trinity or "Jesus Only" -- What Do the Scriptures Teach? at ATRI Resource Center

In 1985 on the John Ankerberg Show, leaders of the Oneness movement formally debated authentic historical Christian Bible scholars. It was worth the $27.00. Authentic historical Christians 1 - Oneness heretics 0.

 

[zone]

Hi Zone,
1 Corinthians 4:15 "Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father, through the gospel."
1 Cor 11:3 Now I want you to realise that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man and the head of Christ is God.

If Paul claims he is one of our fathers as he taught us of the gospel, do you think it is too far a stretch for Jesus also to be called Father.
love
edwin

edwin

you STILL have not answered the original questions posed directly to you.

please have the courage of your convictions. it appears (though i have not had a direct answer yet) that a charge OF HERESY is being levelled against me due to my understanding of the GodHead.

i take this extremely seriously.

why did you moit the last part of Isaiah 9:6 from your post?
which bible do you use?
the Jehovah's Witnesses also declare that Isaiah 9:6 means Jesus is only one of MANY FATHERS.
the Mormons teach this also.

i am a sinner saved by Grace who belongs to no denomination. i do not follow men when it comes to foundational doctrine.

i have said that if it can be proven (and my text was Isaiah 9:6) that i am an heretic for repeating what God has said EMMANUEL WITH US WOULD BE KNOWN AS, i will repent.

i understand the GodHead based upon what i read in my Bible.

i have asked that if it can be proven using Isaiah 9:6 that God speaking through OLD TESATMENT PROPHET ISAIAH did not mean what He said, that Jesus would be cknown as the Everlasting Father, the Mighty God (not to mention the Son and the Wonderful Counsellor/Comforter), i will repent.

frankly, i couldn't care less about anyone's FEELINGS about what the GodHead is, or arguments between denominations. i don't care about this Oneness thing or words like Trinity or anything else. the Bible calls Father Son and Holy Spirit The Godhead.

i asked you to explain why you deleted half of Isaiah 9:6.

i asked what GOD meant by using all those titles to describe the Son that would be given. in your answer please examine the use of the word EVERLASTING.

even though it certainly appears so, you are not suggesting there are more than One Father are you?
would this not amount to Polytheism? how many Gods are in the Godhead if Jesus is yet another Father?

even if you did say such a thing, i would not level a charge of heresy against you as though it were a daisy in the wind. this is not a formal church where such a charge can be arbitrated biblically. i have even read on another post that (i THINK) following a post i made regarding the GodHead and Jesus being God manifest in the flesh that not only would i be an heretic, but also excommunicated. i have asked that if those that say these things have the courage of their convictions, they need to address it directly, or be very careful with such grevious charges.

respectfully,
zone.

 

[zone]

edwin

you STILL have not answered the original questions posed directly to you.

please have the courage of your convictions. it appears (though i have not had a direct answer yet) that a charge OF HERESY is being levelled against me due to my understanding of the GodHead.

i take this extremely seriously.

why did you moit the last part of Isaiah 9:6 from your post?
which bible do you use?
the Jehovah's Witnesses also declare that Isaiah 9:6 means Jesus is only one of MANY FATHERS.
the Mormons teach this also.

i am a sinner saved by Grace who belongs to no denomination. i do not follow men when it comes to foundational doctrine.

i have said that if it can be proven (and my text was Isaiah 9:6) that i am an heretic for repeating what God has said EMMANUEL WITH US WOULD BE KNOWN AS, i will repent.

i understand the GodHead based upon what i read in my Bible.

i have asked that if it can be proven using Isaiah 9:6 that God speaking through OLD TESATMENT PROPHET ISAIAH did not mean what He said, that Jesus would be cknown as the Everlasting Father, the Mighty God (not to mention the Son and the Wonderful Counsellor/Comforter), i will repent.

frankly, i couldn't care less about anyone's FEELINGS about what the GodHead is, or arguments between denominations. i don't care about this Oneness thing or words like Trinity or anything else. the Bible calls Father Son and Holy Spirit The Godhead.

i asked you to explain why you deleted half of Isaiah 9:6.

i asked what GOD meant by using all those titles to describe the Son that would be given. in your answer please examine the use of the word EVERLASTING.

even though it certainly appears so, you are not suggesting there are more than One Father are you?
would this not amount to Polytheism? how many Gods are in the Godhead if Jesus is yet another Father?

even if you did say such a thing, i would not level a charge of heresy against you as though it were a daisy in the wind. this is not a formal church where such a charge can be arbitrated biblically. i have even read on another post that (i THINK) following a post i made regarding the GodHead and Jesus being God manifest in the flesh that not only would i be an heretic, but also excommunicated. i have asked that if those that say these things have the courage of their convictions, they need to address it directly, or be very careful with such grevious charges.

respectfully,
zone.

edwin......

i believe i owe you an apology.
it appears it was VW that deleted the portion of Isaiah 9:6 i referred to.
and i have been away and haven't gone back to examine the charges of heresy.

if none of the above applied to you, please forgive me for posting it in your name.
i'll get it sorted out.

this is irritating since i believe we have bigger fish to fry, but apparently my Christianity is in question.
zone.

 

[zone]

The NASB. I quoted the entire relevant passage earlier.

RELEVANT?
the entire verse was THE WHOLE CRUX OF MY POSITION.
omitting any of it does damage to understanding the Godhead.

 

[zone]

In KJV it says as you quote. In the NASB it says Mighty God.

well,
i wonder why the NASB would leave off THE DIVINE ARTICLE "THE"??

it leaves it open to mean Jesus could be just any mighty God, doesn't it?

 

[zone]

Hi livingbygrace,
Thank you very much for this scripture. It certainly is spot on.
love
edwin

what scripture?
i see no documentation.
livingbygrace is giving his/her opinion, edwin.

 

[zone]

The Trinity or "Jesus Only" -- What Do the Scriptures Teach? at ATRI Resource Center

In 1985 on the John Ankerberg Show, leaders of the Oneness movement formally debated authentic historical Christian Bible scholars. It was worth the $27.00. Authentic historical Christians 1 - Oneness heretics 0.

HUH???
there's that charge of heresy again.
tell me....do you count yourself among your so-called Authentic historical Christians?
are you so certain all your beliefs line up with biblical doctrine? have they always? are you so sure even now?

getting back to THE BIBLE,
if you think the GodHead is so simple, please explain your understanding of the following:

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

which God is it that was manifest in the flesh? how many Gods are there?

 

[zone]

(Continuation...)

The argumentation you set forth is not what is considered exegesis, that is, drawing an interpretation from the text. Rather, you use eisegesis-- introducing ones own ideas, reading it into the text.

You give an explanation of what you believe, and you try to make the text fit around your ideas, but you haven’t actually exegeted any passages that confirms anything that you’ve said. Never does the Scripture identify the Father as the Son, the Son as the Father, or the Holy Spirit as the Son. Passages such as John 10:30 do not identify the Father as the Son, or the Son as the Father, or teach that they are the same Person, rather, the same in Being. In short, you confess that as a human, Jesus is distinct, but prior to His manifestation in the flesh, He existed as the Father (the key difference between Patripassianist modalism, and Oneness Pentecostal modalism). And because that is the root of your argument, that is the root in which I must rebut.

Isaiah 48:12-16
‘Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.’ – Isaiah 48:12-16

To make this straight forward, follow the personal pronouns in the bold. Notice the difference in language used, ‘I,’ ‘Me,’ ‘Him,’ ‘He.’ The speaker has claimed that He Himself is the first, and the last, and has claimed ownership over all creation. But yet, this same Person speaks of a ‘He,’ and a ‘Him,’ that is, someone other than the speaker. Notice, the Person speaking did not say, ‘I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and I will make his ways successful.’ Rather, He says, ‘…and He will make his ways successful.’ This very same Person says, ‘…the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.’ May I submit to you, that the One speaking here is the pre-incarnate Lord Jesus Christ, the Eternal Word, the Alpha and the Omega, and He is referring to being sent by the Father.

To reaffirm that this is indeed Christ speaking, refer to Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 22:14-16 where Christ claims to be the first, and the last. Also, see Hebrews 1:8-12, which is the Father’s proclamation of the Son, ‘…YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS… .’ The ‘He,’ ‘Him,’ and ‘Lord GOD’ that is made mention here in Isaiah 48 is clearly in reference to the Father, whom has sent the ‘Me,’ ‘the first and the last,’ that is, Christ.

May I suggest, that if Jesus is the Father, He wouldn’t speak of another as ‘He,’ and ‘Him,’ and ‘Lord GOD.’ If Jesus was the Father before His pre-incarnation, He would have said something on the lines of, ‘…From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there And now I, the first and the last, am coming in the flesh.’

John 1:1-2, 18
‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.’ – John 1:1-2 (NASB)

Key term to take note of here is ‘pros,’ otherwise, ‘with.’ The term ‘pros’ is a preposition (Ex: The pen is on the floor; The cat is under the bed; My shoes are beside the couch) which means, ‘toward,’ ‘together,’ ‘near,’ ‘with,’ that is, ‘face-to-face’ with another. A couple examples from Scripture include:

Mark 2:2, ‘And many were gathered together [pros], so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them.’

Luke 6:11, But they themselves were filled with rage, and discussed together [pros] what they might do to Jesus.
​

It is evident that what we have in John 1:1-2 is an interpersonal relationship between the Word and God. The phrase, ‘…kai ho logos en pros ton theon,’ that is, ‘…and the Word was with God,’ demonstrates the distinct personage of the pre-existent Word. This is also demonstrated in John 17:5, where Christ said, ‘Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.’

‘No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.’ – John 1:18 (ESV)

I contest that John 1:18 can not be understood outside the lens of the Doctrine of the Trinity. According to the Old Testament, clearly, men have seen God:

Genesis 32:24-30, “Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob's thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him. Then he said, ‘Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.’ But he said, ‘I will not let you go unless you bless me.’ So he said to him, ‘What is your name?’ And he said, ‘Jacob.’ He said, ‘Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.’ Then Jacob asked him and said, ‘Please tell me your name.’ But he said, ‘Why is it that you ask my name?’ And he blessed him there. So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, ‘I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.’”

Joshua 5:13-15, “Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, ‘Are you for us or for our adversaries?’ He said, ‘No; rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the LORD.’ And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, ‘What has my lord to say to his servant?’ The captain of the LORD'S host said to Joshua, ‘Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.’ And Joshua did so.”

Job 42:5, “Then Job answered the LORD and said, ‘I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge? Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me. I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You;”
​

And yet, no man has ever seen the Father, for the Scriptures say, ‘Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father’ (John 6:46), and ‘And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form’ (John 5:37).

Amos 4, Genesis 18 & 19, and John 8 – The Consistency
I’ll be first to say that I don’t take the most common Trinitarian approach to Genesis 18, which usually teaches that the three men that appeared before Abraham as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

In Genesis 18, you’ll recall that ‘Ieue,’ that is the Hebrew term used for ‘Yahweh’ aka ‘LORD’ in most of our Bible translations, appeared before Abraham (v. 1). Since we can conclude that no one has seen the Father, might I suggest that since Jesus is a distinct Person from the Father, it was the pre-incarnate Christ that had appeared before Abraham, with two angels. It was the pre-incarnate Christ that Abraham pleaded with, and it was the pre-incarnate Christ, the Eternal Word that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Cross reference Genesis 18, with what Christ said in John 8:56-58, ‘Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad. So the Jews said to Him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.’”

With that being said, Genesis 19 takes into account the grand destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and in v. 24-25 it declares, ‘Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.’ That is, two Persons that are named Yahweh, one on earth, which appeared before Abraham, and the other in Heaven. Likewise, Amos 4:10-11 also declares,

“‘I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me,’ declares the LORD. ‘I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me,’ declares the LORD.”

Revelation 5:1-7
“I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, ‘Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?’ And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; and one of the elders said to me, ‘Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.’ And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.”

Revelation 5:1-7 portrays the Father sitting on the throne with a sealed book, along with another that is standing in the midst of the elders, the Lamb, whom takes the book out of the hands of the One sitting on the throne – a clear distinction.

Putting the Finish Over the Paint – The Conclusion
Since there is clear distinction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, there is only one way that is expressed in the Scripture that can present God as One, and I contend that the Scripture clearly portrays through unity (added: that is, Tri-UNITY).

Paul wrote in the book of Galatians that, ‘There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus’ (Galatians 3:28). That is, that the Church, the Body of Christ are in unity, unified together as one Body. Not literal ‘one body,’ but a unified Body. Jesus compared the unity between the Church as to the unity with He and His Father when He said,

John 17: 9-11, ‘I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.’ John 17 goes onto say in verses 22 and 23, ‘The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.’
​

Christ prayed for His Sheep, He said, ‘…may they be one even as We are (v. 11)… that they may be one, just as We are one (v. 22)… that they may be perfected in unity (v. 23)… .’ That is what the Scripture clearly says, and clearly hints at throughout (refer to Deuteronomy 6:4, Genesis 2:24, John 10:30, Galatians 3:28, and John 17:9-11, 22-23).

‘Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.’ – John 17:5

............................


Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

which God is it that was manifest in the flesh? how many Gods are there?

You're not fooling anyone with a strawman. You already know the Bible teaches one God in three persons and that is what authentic Christians believe (not to be confused with excommunicated heretics) and simply choose to discard this sound doctrine for the gymnastics of Oneness heresy.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

This is a re-post of a statement I made just a couple days ago concerning the same arguments set forth on these forums. The posting was actually directed towards a certain forum user, so there may be portions there not directed towards you. This is to help clear up the Oneness controversy, since it seems some didn't see the post. Be sure to read it all, and you'll get a clearer picture of the argument as a whole:

First, let me tell you that what I’m about to proclaim is going to make you really, really upset, or it is going to be really, really insightful.

In a previous post you said, ‘You can refute modalism all you want I am not a modalist, and that is not what Ricke was teaching.’ I contend that this is precisely what is being taught by you, and Ricke. Sequential modalism may differ than the view that Oneness Pentecostals hold true to, but regardless, you agree that God is one in Person, with three distinct personalities, thus you are a modalist. Of course, there are different forms of modalism, such as, Patripassianism, which Oneness Pentecostals deny, but all Oneness groups (whether you be a Oneness Pentecostal, or Patripassianist) are considered modalists. Modalism is simply the belief that God is one in Person. David Bernard, a Oneness advocate, even said, "Modalism is the same as the modern doctrine of Oneness." (the Oneness of God p.318 ).

I find it almost fascinating that some Jehovah Witnesses, as well as some Mormons, but not always, make the false accusation that Trinitarian’s actually adhere to Oneness theology, that is, most often, believe that we think Jesus is the Father, and the Holy Spirit is the Son, and every other combination of the sort. Then it comes to Oneness proponents, and they accuse the Trinitarian of tri-theism, which is actually a Mormon view of God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all separate, and individual Gods, no unity), but it is even evident, that Mormons are actually more polytheistic, in their belief that they too can achieve a status equivalent to God, and that they too could rule over planet(s). And then we have the Trinitarian caught in the center of the cross hairs of fire, waving that big red flag, saying, ‘No, no, no, and no… that’s not what we believe, you’ve got it all wrong!’ The Jehovah Witnesses, the Mormons, and the Oneness folks don’t quite get their accusations right at all. So here I am, holding that big red flag. Let me share with you what a Trinitarian is, and what a Trinitarian is not.

• A Trinitarian is totally Monotheistic, that is, the belief in One God (please note the difference between One Being, and One Person). Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 45:18, James 2:19
  
  
• A Trinitarian believes that the Scripture declares that the Father is 100% God (Galatians 1:1, Romans 1:7, 1 Corinthians 1:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 1:2; 3), that the Son is 100% God (Isaiah 48:11-16, Hebrews 1:8-12, John 1:1-14, Colossians 1:13-17, Revelation 22:12-16), and that the Holy Spirit is 100% God (Acts 5:1-5, Job 33:4, Psalms 139:7-8, Hebrews 9:14, Acts 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 21:11, 1 Timothy 4:1, Hebrews 3:7)

• A Trinitarian believes that the Father is Eternal, that the Word (Christ before His manifestation) is Eternal, and that the Spirit is Eternal. That is, Christ as the Eternal Word pre-existed with the Father, as well as the Holy Spirit.

• A Trinitarian believes that God exists in three Persons revealed to us as the Father, Son, and Spirit, and that they are One in Being and in purpose, that is, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit make up a tri-unity (Trinity). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist in unity in the Godhead.

• A Trinitarian does not believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate, or distinct Beings (not to be confused with Persons).

• The Doctrine of the Trinity teaches that there is One Being, that is God. Not that there’s three Being that are One Being. Nor does it teach that there is One Person that is three Persons. The Trinity is One Being that is God, three Persons that fully share that Divine Being.

(Continued...)

Excellent post btw.

 

[zone]

You're not fooling anyone with a strawman. You already know the Bible teaches one God in three persons and that is what authentic Christians believe (not to be confused with excommunicated heretics) and simply choose to discard this sound doctrine for the gymnastics of Oneness heresy.

so you do level this at me.
and among other things, that i am attempting to "fool" people with a strawman.
also, i apparently am aware of CORRECT doctrine, yet choose to discard it for heresy.

though i am ashamed for your sake that you have called me an heretic,
i do respect you for answering directly.
i would ask, are you "excommunicating" me? by what authority?
you are most assuredly very certain that you stand on solid ground ageofknowledge.
i'll take some time to look into your posts to see what i might learn about your authentic Christian beliefs.
zone.

 

[phil36]

This could go on and on and on. The simple plain truth is that 'oneness pentecostals' hold to heresy, and in that are heretics. The Trinity is a foundational doctrine of Christianity, or should I say true Christianity.

Lets not beat around the bush. this is plain and simple heresy and always has been. How many other heresies will we pander after and tippy toe around the people who apply them and ply them as truth?

Blessings

Phil

 

[zone]

This could go on and on and on. The simple plain truth is that 'oneness pentecostals' hold to heresy, and in that are heretics. The Trinity is a foundational doctrine of Christianity, or should I say true Christianity.

Lets not beat around the bush. this is plain and simple heresy and always has been. How many other heresies will we pander after and tippy toe around the people who apply them and ply them as truth?

Blessings

Phil

i still don't know what Oneness is, and i reject Pentecostalism.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Hi charisenexcelcis,
The post you wrote was number 56. Your total and completed sentence reads; " I have no problem saying that the Son of God came in the flesh. "
I understood you to mean that the Son of God came in the flesh.

Can you explain to me how I am interpreting your words in ways that you do not mean?
love
edwin.

But I also know that Jesus is God, without beginning and without end. So, I do not believe that my theology agrees with yours in the matter.