Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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Any verse that promotes obedience brings name dalling and accusation from you.

I once posted this:

Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”



John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”


and you called me a lawyer in reply...

ohh and you mentioned Mat 7...

yet you focus on 22 but ignore verse 21 and 23, verse 22 is showing some did "good works" according to what they thought was right, but Yahshua says those who do the will of the father go and those that practice iniquity do not, for you doctrine you need to alter the definition of iniquity to "self justified" rather than "anomia" = without Law.

Mat 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to Me; Master! Master! will enter into the Kingdom of YHWH, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day; Master! Master! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity.”



practice” is word #G2038 Strong's Concordance - ergazomai: I work, trade, do, Original Word: ἐργάζομαι, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: ergazomai, Phonetic Spelling: (er-gad'-zom-ahee), Short Definition: I work, trade, do, Definition: I work, trade, perform, do, practice, commit, acquire by labor.


iniquity” is word #G458 Strong's Concordance - anomia, lawlessness, Short Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin

"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459
Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness


Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

why does love grow cold?

what is love?


1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

this leads me back to what you called me a lawyer for:




Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”



John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

Fact is YHWH knows the heart of every human.



That is because I know what you peddle....a faith/law blend....and no matter how many show you your error...you still post walls of law abiding text that does not justify a man before God.....You may fool some, but many have seen through your thinly veiled self saving working for law keeping Hebrew roots dogma...Your not even a Hebrew and you post all these words like you are....at the end of the day if you are not a blood born JEW you are a GENTILE....you are NOT under the LAW, you are UNDER GRACE.....the LAW does nothing for you BUT CONDEMN you....YOU DO NOT KEEP THE LAW....NEVER HAVE, NEVER WILL....

Exactly why I cut you very little slack......You season your law keeping drivel with just enough grace and faith to make it seem valid....but at the end of the day man.....it is not valid...and deep down...it saddens me and makes me sick....it is tragic that you are so wrapped around the axle of law that you cannot see the full blown face of grace found in Christ and how HIS righteousness is IMPUTED BY FAITH to US who believe without ONE ounce of the LAW being attached......
 
J

joefizz

Guest
No Sir. That is what you have concluded, not we. Others do have a right to their interpretation as well, you know.
Ok so dcontroversal isn't quoting a person and speaking in general concerning scripture and you attempt to retort him by "jumping in" and responding to his statement without "thinking" not good to do.
 
L

loyaldisciple

Guest
You are still accusing me...I wrote NOTHING in any manner like it was my own idea......just forget it...it seems obvious that you cannot admit error....same issue the Pharisees and lawyers had in the days of OLD....

By the way...Book, chapter an verse were added by men.....

THEREFORE, WE conclude that a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH without the deeds of the LAW
Who is it not admitting any error here? I didn't recognize the scripture because you didn't present it as scripture. I didn't hear you say it was wrong for you to call me a deceiver, when I never have any intention to deceive anyone. It would seem that to be some sort of mistake. But if you say it isn't, then I must be mistaken about that also. Carry on soldier.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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When it comes to works and faith, if you think I'm pitting one against the other and choosing only one of them, then you have misunderstood my position. I am full aware of the value of faith. I am also full aware of the value of works. What I'm saying is they both hold great value for a Christian just as the Bible says. To choose only one is not wise according to the scriptures that I read. Many scriptures speak of the value of good works in tandem with faith. I believe it a misreading of scripture to claim only one is important. My position is not one of picking one over the other. My position is to understand the importance of both.

MATTHEW 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Sorry, but you can't mix Law and Grace. Grace is unmerited, the Law is performance based. Jesus said in regard to mixing the old covenant with the new:

“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.” (Matthew 9:14-17)
 
J

joefizz

Guest
You wrote it as if you, yourself had concluded it by not presenting it as scripture. When you don't present it as scripture, it is only natural for anyone to conclude it to be your words. It was not my mistake to believe it was your words, because that is exactly how you presented it. Furthermore, I have not and will not call you any names, which you have done unto me. You have jumped, out of your anger, and completely misjudged me my friend.
No you "jumped" onto his post in "mistake" and are trying to act as if you didn't why not just "admit" that that was what happened?
I have myself been "mistaken" it's good to "accept" being wrong or "having a misunderstanding".
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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When it comes to works and faith, if you think I'm pitting one against the other and choosing only one of them, then you have misunderstood my position. I am full aware of the value of faith. I am also full aware of the value of works. What I'm saying is they both hold great value for a Christian just as the Bible says. To choose only one is not wise according to the scriptures that I read. Many scriptures speak of the value of good works in tandem with faith. I believe it a misreading of scripture to claim only one is important. My position is not one of picking one over the other. My position is to understand the importance of both.

MATTHEW 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
l...,

Point well made.

Scripture guides us well of the importance of faith as well as servitude......good works. Both are necessary for righteous living.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
Who is it not admitting any error here? I didn't recognize the scripture because you didn't present it as scripture. I didn't hear you say it was wrong for you to call me a deceiver, when I never have any intention to deceive anyone. It would seem that to be some sort of mistake. But if you say it isn't, then I must be mistaken about that also. Carry on soldier.
Yeah I saw he called you a "deceiver" probably his feelings towards you but no big deal I've been called multiple "names" here and in general over the years typically it's a sign of "desperation" so best not to "react" to such a possible "bait".
 
L

loyaldisciple

Guest
Ok so dcontroversal isn't quoting a person and speaking in general concerning scripture and you attempt to retort him by "jumping in" and responding to his statement without "thinking" not good to do.
ok Joe, you tell me how "anyone" is to be expected to believe something is not one's own words when that is precisely how they are presented ? Are we now expected to be mind readers on here ? When I quote a verse, I always present it as a verse. Makes sense to me that this is how to do it so there is no confusion about who's words those actually are.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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....................if you are not a blood born JEW you are a GENTILE....you are NOT under the LAW, you are UNDER GRACE........
d...,

Hebrew is a nationality...Jew is a religion. Would you reconcile the above with that fact?

Further, are you suggesting a gentile is under a different law than any one else?
 
L

loyaldisciple

Guest
Yeah I saw he called you a "deceiver" probably his feelings towards you but no big deal I've been called multiple "names" here and in general over the years typically it's a sign of "desperation" so best not to "react" to such a possible "bait".
So, essentially what you have just said here is that it IS a big deal when I interpret something just as it was presented, but it IS NOT any big deal when someone calls me a false name. I believe that is known as showing some sort of bias Joe. Certainly does not appear to be fair play to me.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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So, essentially what you have just said here is that it IS a big deal when I interpret something just as it was presented, but it IS NOT any big deal when someone calls me a false name. I believe that is known as showing some sort of bias Joe. Certainly does not appear to be fair play to me.
l...,
Report anyone calling names to the administrator. It should not be allowed under the rules.
 
L

loyaldisciple

Guest
l...,
Report anyone calling names to the administrator. It should not be allowed under the rules.
I won't be spending my time reporting anybody. I would rather just have a debate without all the name calling.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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You are still accusing me...I wrote NOTHING in any manner like it was my own idea......just forget it...it seems obvious that you cannot admit error....same issue the Pharisees and lawyers had in the days of OLD....

By the way...Book, chapter an verse were added by men.....

THEREFORE, WE conclude that a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH without the deeds of the LAW
Agreed amego,
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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That is because I know what you peddle....a faith/law blend....and no matter how many show you your error...you still post walls of law abiding text that does not justify a man before God.....You may fool some, but many have seen through your thinly veiled self saving working for law keeping Hebrew roots dogma...Your not even a Hebrew and you post all these words like you are....at the end of the day if you are not a blood born JEW you are a GENTILE....you are NOT under the LAW, you are UNDER GRACE.....the LAW does nothing for you BUT CONDEMN you....YOU DO NOT KEEP THE LAW....NEVER HAVE, NEVER WILL....

Exactly why I cut you very little slack......You season your law keeping drivel with just enough grace and faith to make it seem valid....but at the end of the day man.....it is not valid...and deep down...it saddens me and makes me sick....it is tragic that you are so wrapped around the axle of law that you cannot see the full blown face of grace found in Christ and how HIS righteousness is IMPUTED BY FAITH to US who believe without ONE ounce of the LAW being attached......
I dont need any slack from you, you are an accuser and act like a child with your name calling.

That is because I know what you peddle....a faith/law blend....and no matter how many show you your error...
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and possessing the Witness of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah."[/FONT]
 
L

loyaldisciple

Guest
Sorry, but you can't mix Law and Grace. Grace is unmerited, the Law is performance based. Jesus said in regard to mixing the old covenant with the new:

“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.” (Matthew 9:14-17)
Sorry, but that is your opinion. It is not listed as fact in the Bible I am reading.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jerome responds saying of the Nazarenes: “though believing in Christ, [they] were anathematized* by the [church] fathers for this one error, that they mixed up the ceremonies of the law with the gospel of Christ, and professed their faith in that which was new, without letting go what was old.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and possessing the Witness of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
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Sorry, but that is your opinion. It is not listed as fact in the Bible I am reading.
Hi loyaldisciple,
Jesus' Sermon on the Mount is a criticism of the Pharisees's, they were the law breakers', not his disciples. The whole of the Sermon on the Mount is pointing back to the Pharisee's and how they lowered God's standard's . Further more Jesus is the fulfillment of God's law.

If you continue to teach on this forum that we are under law not grace, that is a false gospel and so yes you are, "deceiving people." It is the policies of this Christian website that you cannot teach "false doctrine", so yes my brother decontoversal is correct and you are deceiving people by pushing a works doctrine. Jesus is the fulfillment of the law, and we are under grace not law. You could not be more wrong, time to rethink your false teaching.

Law vs Grace: Romans10:3,4

3)
Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
4) Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
 
Last edited:

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:3, “For not knowing the righteousness of Yah, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of Yah.”

This is a much misunderstood passage, for it would be sticking up forthe pharisees who made their own law if misunderstood, it was exposing those who would not submit to Yah but again made their own “way”

Mat 15:2-3, “Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them; And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?”
[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:3-4, "For not knowing the righteousness of Yah, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of Yah. For Messiah is the goal of the ‘Torah unto righteousness’ to everyone who believes."

For not knowing the righteousness of Yah, and seeking to establish their own righteousness
[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them; And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We can not earn Salvation by only obedience to the Law of the Creator, as James said and as Yahshua Himself said it takes YHWH’s mercy and our faith and works. Romans 10:4 is a verses mistranslated in the majority of Bibles thus blurring the lines of truth. Christ is not “the end of the Law” but rather Yahshua showed the intent, ultimate result or goal (telos) of keeping the Law of YHWH.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word translated “end” is word#G5056, τέλος, telos, tel'-os[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Lets look at places this word is used in the Konie Greek originals to get an idea of it meaning and context;[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Peter 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith – the salvation of your souls."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away or at an end in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away or at an end in 1 Peter 1:9. Unless of course “telos” means the goal.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #G5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose (telos) of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”[/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end (telos) of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the goal (telos) of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:22, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end (telos) everlasting life.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:22, “But now, having been set free from sin, and having become servants of Yah, you have your fruit resulting in set-apartness, and the goal (telos); everlasting life.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word is used in the sense of the end result, the goal, the outcome, not in the sense of the obliteration of the Law…[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5-7, " But the goal* of our instruction/command is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*goal is word #G5056 télos - Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 4:20, “"If someone says, "I love Yah," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love Yah whom he has not seen."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]
 
L

loyaldisciple

Guest
Hi loyaldisciple,
Jesus' Sermon on the Mount is a criticism of the Pharisees's, they were the law breakers', not his disciples. The whole of the Sermon on the Mount is pointing back to the Pharisee's and how they lowered God's standard's . Further more Jesus is the fulfillment of God's law.

If you continue to teach on this forum that we are under law not grace, that is a false gospel and so yes you are, "deceiving people." It is the policies of this Christian website that you cannot teach "false doctrine", so yes my brother decontoversal is correct and you are deceiving people by pushing a works doctrine. Jesus is the fulfillment of the law, and we are under grace not law. You could not be more wrong, time to rethink your false teaching.

Law vs Grace: Romans10:3,4

3)
Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
4) Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Not one time did I ever say we are not under grace. You make false accusations just as others. What I very clearly said was that I believe faith and works are BOTH important. If you want to understand my position then you need to pay attention to what I say, not just what you want to hear. You are now the 2nd one to falsely accuse me of being a deceiver.