Hebrews 10:26-31

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No worries I can look it up on my own, if not I will let you know, thank you for the info..and I will be back once I have done the research.

I can save you a lot of work - Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book I, Chapter VI, sections 2-4

 

[Ralph-]

But fruit doesn't tell us how to get there.

Get where?

What work produces that fruit?

Saving faith produces in us the qualities of the Spirit that then cause us to do righteous works.

There's a lot of confused ideas IMO about what work really is required of us. Not required by GOD, but required by our condition and the fallen world we live in to allow us to walk in his holiness.

LOVE.

That is what is required of us.

Love does no harm or wrong to it's neighbor-Romans 13:10.

That is what Christians are to be doing--living self controlled and upright lives in this age as we wait for the appearing of our Lord and Savior. Lives that do no harm to others and which even reach out to help others in their distress and need--that is the life of work that we are to live. This happens in us because we have the living example of Christ and how he did that for us in our salvation and in our own lives. He loved us unconditionally, and by his example we learn how to love too, and are empowered to love others without regard to selfish conditions.

The person who can't/won't do this, they show that they do not have Christ's love in them to cause them to do that, or that even in their salvation they have yet to experience that love in a deep, abiding, intimate 'knowing'.

That's why/how works are required in salvation without those works not earning your salvation. Ultimately, you show by your life if you have the love of God in salvation in you. Mean, insensitive, harsh, brutal people show they have yet to know God in salvation, or grow up into their salvation. To stay in your meanness and unloving, conditional, selfish ways is to show you are not born again to begin with. That's how/why works are necessary in salvation. They won't save you, but you can't be saved without them.

 

[UnderGrace]

Oh Ralphie,

How I have missed our talks.

Only those who do not have God's grace would try to excuse and rationalize, God's grace/truth is His very essence at work in our lives.
All that you are saying is the antithesis of Grace.

What is an old life? What is it you want people to do to prove they are believers and truly born again?

Which church?

The gospel of grace in the hands of non-believers and even believers has always been a problem..by the first century the gospel was already being distorted, either works/law was added to it, or grace was defamed by stating it is a license to sin or lawlessness.

In truth, Grace Is Neither.

Right, but in the end, generally speaking, if you're not 'shined up' in some measure of spiritual growth when Jesus comes back you won't be saved. You still being in your old self - the flesh - shows you were not saved in this life.....or you forfeited your salvation through a return to unbelief.

Too many people are using God's grace as the excuse and rationalization that they do not have to be changed/changing and can continue to live in their old lives or that would be them trying to earn their own salvation. That is some of the worst doctrine I have ever heard. But it is winning over the church at this time in church history. The end is near, IMO.

 

[BillG]

Get where?



Saving faith produces in us the qualities of the Spirit that then cause us to do righteous works.




LOVE.

That is what is required of us.

Love does no harm or wrong to it's neighbor-Romans 13:10.

That is what Christians are to be doing--living self controlled and upright lives in this age as we wait for the appearing of our Lord and Savior. Lives that do no harm to others and which even reach out to help others in their distress and need--that is the life of work that we are to live. This happens in us because we have the living example of Christ and how he did that for us in our salvation and in our own lives. He loved us unconditionally, and by his example we learn how to love too, and are empowered to love others without regard to selfish conditions.

The person who can't/won't do this, they show that they do not have Christ's love in them to cause them to do that, or that even in their salvation they have yet to experience that love in a deep, abiding, intimate 'knowing'.

That's why/how works are required in salvation without those works not earning your salvation. Ultimately, you show by your life if you have the love of God in salvation in you. Mean, insensitive, harsh, brutal people show they have yet to know God in salvation, or grow up into their salvation. To stay in your meanness and unloving, conditional, selfish ways is to show you are not born again to begin with. That's how/why works are necessary in salvation. They won't save you, but you can't be saved without them.

I have embolded the above.

There is a difference between someone who can't and won't.

If you should not one love how can you early walk in it?

If you don't know God loves you how can you love?

I'm think you can in terms of loving others, yet they love God has for you is not true for you.

 

[Ralph-]

If I'm totally honest and I will be honest.
I'm not gonna put OSAS aside as I know it's an issue for you.

It's only an issue for me if one uses once saved always saved as an excuse to live in sin.

I'm okay with traditional, Calvinistic once saved always saved. At least it defends the necessity to be a changed/changing person who continues to believe to the very end. I just happen to believe a person CAN stop believing. That's all.

Firstly I will say that if I understand you then I think you believe a person can struggle with sin yet hate it and want rid of it.
That being the case they are genuine belivers.
If I'm right then we agree.

Correct.
As long as they continue to believe and seek to please the Lord by seeking him out to win over sin they are in fact a genuine believer.

Yet if a person does not overcome then that's evidence they are not saved.

IN THE END if they do not overcome and they are still n the flesh (that is, they are unsaved-see Romans 8) then, yes, they don't have that which accompanies salvation and so aren't saved (see Hebrews 6).

That being the case then you deserve the right to say they are not saved.

Jesus has given every believer the right to decide who they will CONSIDER a believer and who they will not (Matthew 18). That's not condemning them. Only God can pass a judgment like that.

Yet I can't recall you ever saying you would walk with people who struggle with sin.

I did say it, and I have walked with people who struggle with sin.

I know a single man and a single woman who the pastor caught having sex in the church after hours. I never doubted the salvation of the man or the woman. I was aware through personal conversations that the man (a friend of mine) struggled with sexual temptation and sometimes couldn't keep himself from stopping at a nudie bar when he was out, but I never, not even for a moment, thought he was not saved because of what he did.

I still laugh about it to myself to this day.

I remember asking you if you would and you said "Yes and no" and left it at that.
When I pressed in you just said along the lines (my interpretation) if they continue in it they are not saved.

I do remember you misunderstanding me terribly, lol.

I don't remember the details. Bring it up again and I will explain.

So you use this to lambast OSAS because it's a license to sin but do not seem willing to come alongside those who struggle with sin.

I detest hypergrace once saved always saved. But as I say, the original Calvinistic once saved always saved is not offensive to me. I just happen to disagree with the part that says the true believer can't stop believing. The rest of it--the evidence of salvation, the persevering, etc.--I agree with.

Maybe you think I'm a greasy gracer, I think you do.

No, I don't. But I really don't have enough knowledge about you to know for sure.

If you think that once saved always saved makes it so you can live in old ways without concern then you are a greasy/hyper/free gracer. At this point I do not think you are that. There are those in this forum who have come right out and said they can do that.

 

[Ralph-]

There is a difference between someone who can't and won't.

Maybe, maybe not.

If you should not one love how can you early walk in it?

Huh?

In English, man! And I don't mean the Queen's English, lol.

If you don't know God loves you how can you love?

I'm think you can in terms of loving others, yet they love God has for you is not true for you.

That is what I think.

The person who does not love as God loves has either never accepted God's love in salvation, or is saved but has not experienced his love in a 'knowing' intimate relationship with God, yet.

 

[Ralph-]

Oh Ralphie,

How I have missed our talks.

I bet you have, lol.

I'm going outside for a while to get some things done before dark. I'll come back to this.

 

[preacher4truth]

It's amazing really, this new gospel that has been around for a few years.

We have people preaching a gospel that doesn't transform, shows no evidence of converting the person, teaches there need be no evidence of any change or conversion whatsoever, all contrary to the testimony of Scripture, and shockingly predicted in 2 Timothy 3, and especially described in verse 4.

This newer gospel contains a repentance that does not really change the minds of those under its influence about God or sin, nor does it turn them from their sins of which sins Christ came to save them note John 8:31-36; Matthew 1:21. There can be no real change of mind about God without it becoming a reverent fear in turning to him, or about sin without it being a turning away from those sins. The Thessalonians got it. Those in 1 John got it. Peters epistle recipients got it. Those at Pentecost got it. Those converted get it.

On the other hand their "good news" which rejects biblical turning from sin at conversion appears to tell the person they can live how they desire (which they're already doing, mind you) but if they assent to facts and "change their mind about God" they'll go to heaven when they die, but they can still live in sin in this "change of mind about God." No one has a true "change of mind about God" and continues on living and practicing sin.

Why wouldn't it teach them they can live how they desire? It would be hypocritical to teach otherwise when they are so set to tell others it does not entail any turning from sin, nor any evidence of conversion, and denies that works show forth true conversion. The person is then settled to remain as they are with no change. What good news this is! Come unto me you who are weary and heavy laden? Naw! We'll keep our sin, just give tell us we're going to heaven when we die!

Of course these deny they believe this or teach this in their gospel, yet their gospel betrays such a denial.

The true Gospel does turn the person from their sins, 1 Thessalonians 1:1-10 (note also Revelation 9:20-21 for the opposite take among those who are lost). This is what a change of mind entails. Peter preached this repentance of which all the elect will be partakers, 2 Peter 3:9. God awaits their repentance. Not really you say? Note 2 Peter 3:11 describing those in their repentance. Note the warning of Christ in Luke 13:1-9 that shows the need to repent of sin, a gift granted by God at conversion.

This true repentance is shown in personal sanctification of the believer; Hebrews 12:14, and the noted evidence of transformation is exhaustively spoken of in 1 John where evidence of conversion (and "not so much") is described by tests of conversion. 1 John 5:13 is only ascribed to those, contextually, who pass those tests. Paul also notes this transformation in 2 Corinthians 3:18-4:6 where "all" is used to describe true converts undergoing this process of which none are exempt.

I'm glad to have and preach a transforming Gospel that turns people to God and from their sin. Including me.

The elect get it, repent of their sins, believe the Gospel, and are being transformed, sanctified by the power of godliness that stems from the one true Gospel of Christ. I've witnessed many persons transformed by the Gospel, who lived in grievous sin, and at the hearing of the Gospel and conversion their lives have walked away from that former lifestyle of sin. Not into sinless perfection, mind you, but a complete change of mind about that lifestyle culminated with a striving against sin.

That's what the true Gospel does and I want zero to do with this new gospel come lately that isn't and can't transform anyone, and isn't expected to.

 

[BillG]

Maybe, maybe not.




Huh?

In English, man! And I don't mean the Queen's English, lol.




That is what I think.

The person who does not love as God loves has either never accepted God's love in salvation, or is saved but has not experienced his love in a 'knowing' intimate relationship with God, yet.

In English.

Your last paragraph.

They don't know Gods love for them therefore cannot form an intimate relationship with him.
It's different from someone who says they know God loves them but does not want relationship with him

 

[BillG]

It's only an issue for me if one uses once saved always saved as an excuse to live in sin.

I'm okay with traditional, Calvinistic once saved always saved. At least it defends the necessity to be a changed/changing person who continues to believe to the very end. I just happen to believe a person CAN stop believing. That's all.




Correct.
As long as they continue to believe and seek to please the Lord by seeking him out to win over sin they are in fact a genuine believer.




IN THE END if they do not overcome and they are still n the flesh (that is, they are unsaved-see Romans 8) then, yes, they don't have that which accompanies salvation and so aren't saved (see Hebrews 6).




Jesus has given every believer the right to decide who they will CONSIDER a believer and who they will not (Matthew 18). That's not condemning them. Only God can pass a judgment like that.




I did say it, and I have walked with people who struggle with sin.

I know a single man and a single woman who the pastor caught having sex in the church after hours. I never doubted the salvation of the man or the woman. I was aware through personal conversations that the man (a friend of mine) struggled with sexual temptation and sometimes couldn't keep himself from stopping at a nudie bar when he was out, but I never, not even for a moment, thought he was not saved because of what he did.

I still laugh about it to myself to this day.




I do remember you misunderstanding me terribly, lol.

I don't remember the details. Bring it up again and I will explain.




I detest hypergrace once saved always saved. But as I say, the original Calvinistic once saved always saved is not offensive to me. I just happen to disagree with the part that says the true believer can't stop believing. The rest of it--the evidence of salvation, the persevering, etc.--I agree with.





No, I don't. But I really don't have enough knowledge about you to know for sure.

If you think that once saved always saved makes it so you can live in old ways without concern then you are a greasy/hyper/free gracer. At this point I do not think you are that. There are those in this forum who have come right out and said they can do that.

God bless.

Bill

 

[BillG]

Night night peeps

God bless you all.

Rejoice in the Lord always.

He is our rock.

He is our foundation.

He is greater than it all.

 

[UnderGrace]

I was absolutely sincere, while you do not back down you have never been disrespectful towards me.

I am good with that.

I think your avatar helps too, who could dislike such a cute face.

I bet you have, lol.

I'm going outside for a while to get some things done before dark. I'll come back to this.

 

[DiscipleDave]

What is willfully sin mean, it is not easy to answere.

Let say if you hate people that cheat your money to the point that you lost your home, car and make you homeless, sleep on the street.

we know Jesus say, love your enemy, and we hate them, it is willfully sin?

how about when you look a woman with lust, you know it is sin, is that willfully sin?

There are three types of sins:

1) Sins unto Death
2) Sins not unto Death
3) Blaspheme of the Holy Ghost

Sins unto death are those that are knowingly and willingly committed, that is to say, you know full well what you are about to do is sinful and against God, but you choose to do it anyways. These are sins unto death.
Sins not unto death are those that are NOT knowingly and willingly committed. When you lust after someone because of maybe what they are wearing or not wearing, you commit sin. But that is not a sin unto death. But when you reach a point that you know what you are doing is lusting and do not cease from doing that, then it becomes a sin unto death, because you know it is evil and wicked, but you choose to continue to do it anyways.

This generation would do well to learn how to abhor sin. Sin is the very thing that put your Lord and Savior on the Cross. Sin is the very thing that He had to be killed for. Why on Earth would you continue to live in it.

Those who suffer in the flesh are they that have given up sinning. Those who can't cease from sin are cursed children. Woe to this generation indeed, who pick and choose which verses they will believe and which ones they will ignore, make void, or interpret away.


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Ralph-]

Only those who do not have God's grace would try to excuse and rationalize...

I tend to agree with you.

The real test, IMO, is in how they respond to being corrected about the matter. And that's not just true for being corrected about hyper-grace theology, but for other things to. Being able and willing to change and conform to God's truth is a sign that you have God's grace.

What is an old life?

The programming and bondage of your human fleshly, selfish, over indulgent, conditional loving ways.

What is it you want people to do to prove they are believers and truly born again?

Of course you mean what is it that GOD wants people to do to prove they are believers and truly born again.

Well, here's an example:

"14Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain."-Philippians 2:14-16


The key is in the 'grumbling and complaining'. By nature we are selfish and will only do things gladly and easily if they serve our personal interests and tastes and well being. If I do good for someone because they are an attractive or talented person or popular person and I want to win this person's attention or favor, or I do it because I'll get a raise, or the person I'm serving is valuable to me somehow, that is evil conditional human love--love that is conditioned on the value to us of who or what is being served.

But that is not how God loves. He loves by doing things because they are the right and good thing to do for the person receiving the love, irregardless of personal gain or comfort for doing so (human love loves for it's own benefit and good), and irregardless of the person deserving that love. That's how we are supposed to love. That is the obedience that shows we have God's supernatural love in us in a salvation experience. That is the narrow road and narrow gate that leads to life that Jesus says few find.

Which church?

Which church, you ask? The Evangelical churches this side of the great divide between Catholicism and Protestantism. Those churches.

We Evangelical Protestants don't understand how works are necessary in salvation without them earning salvation for us. We do not even understand the nature of works of the Spirit very well in the first place. Let alone how they are the required manifestation of saving faith in the person who has the love of God in them in salvation.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Hebrew 10:26-31 is against Christians who willingly obey satan and continue to live in sins.

Starts with:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

and ends with:

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Those who accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, all their past sins are forgiven to them, and Jesus has paid the price for all those past sins. Then that person AFTER Jesus did this for them, goes and gets back into the mud. Goes back and eats his/her own vomit. Draws back into perdition. A new man in Christ is to get rid of the deeds of the old man as it is written, but not these, These draw back into perdition, doing the very same sins that Jesus forgave them of, these love to sin and do not want to cease from them. Hebrew 10:26-31 is referring to those who return back to get dirty again, and take thought that Jesus goes to the cross for them every single DAY, that Jesus takes stripes for them every single day they continue to live in sin. Jesus told a man and woman to "Go and sin no more" a prophet of Jesus Christ also is now telling you "Go and sin no more".

This generation teaches you can continue to live in sin and still go to Heaven, NO SCRIPTURES teaches that doctrine. Matters of fact ALL of Scriptures teaches what God told me to teach, and that is AGAINST SIN. All sin is selfishness. If you are not willing to lay down your life for Jesus Christ, then you are not worthy of Him. What? You say with your mouth that you are willing to lay down your life for Him, but how is it you are NOT willing to lay down that sin that so easily besets you?

Heb_12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Oh Wait, doesn't this generation teach it is not possible to set aside the sin that so easily besets us? Woe to this generation, for the Word of God teaches against sin, and a prophet of God teaches you now, against sin as well, but will you hear them, or will you continue to love the sin and not cease from them?

There is no sin that you do that you can't cease from, be prepared to answer for yourself to Jesus Christ on Judgment Day, why you did not cease from them? What will you possibly say the reason for you NOT ceasing from those sins will be?

But here is good news. Now you know the Truth, now you can find that narrow and difficult path that only a very few will find.

Tell me would it be a good thing for you to set aside that sin that so easily besets you? Then why are you not doing it?


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[UnderGrace]

Okay I have read once and will read it again....hwr sadly right now I have other work to do.

I can say this much, you have a tremendous concern over the present day sad state of affairs, I respect that and understand it, however, it is not God's grace that is the problem though..... it is the overarching culture/beliefs/behaviour of the country that have been accepted by the churches that is the problem.

More later..

I tend to agree with you.

The real test, IMO, is in how they respond to being corrected about the matter. And that's not just true for being corrected about hyper-grace theology, but for other things to. Being able and willing to change and conform to God's truth is a sign that you have God's grace.





The programming and bondage of your human fleshly, selfish, over indulgent, conditional loving ways.




Of course you mean what is it that GOD wants people to do to prove they are believers and truly born again.

Well, here's an example:

"14Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain."-Philippians 2:14-16


The key is in the 'grumbling and complaining'. By nature we are selfish and will only do things gladly and easily if they serve our personal interests and tastes and well being. If I do good for someone because they are an attractive or talented person or popular person and I want to win this person's attention or favor, or I do it because I'll get a raise, or the person I'm serving is valuable to me somehow, that is evil conditional human love--love that is conditioned on the value to us of who or what is being served.

But that is not how God loves. He loves by doing things because they are the right and good thing to do for the person receiving the love, irregardless of personal gain or comfort for doing so (human love loves for it's own benefit and good), and irregardless of the person deserving that love. That's how we are supposed to love. That is the obedience that shows we have God's supernatural love in us in a salvation experience. That is the narrow road and narrow gate that leads to life that Jesus says few find.





Which church, you ask? The Evangelical churches this side of the great divide between Catholicism and Protestantism. Those churches.

We Evangelical Protestants don't understand how works are necessary in salvation without them earning salvation for us. We do not even understand the nature of works of the Spirit very well in the first place. Let alone how they are the required manifestation of saving faith in the person who has the love of God in them in salvation.

 

[Cee]

I can tell how much a person knows God by their focus on love and on Him. In Scripture the focus on sin wasn’t to lead them to themselves to change themselves, but to see Him and His available grace in a new way. A new way that by faith would set them free. Fix yourself Christianity doesn’t work, if it did people who continually preach we need works would have more of them themselves.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Fix yourself Christianity doesn’t work...

Not sure what you mean by "fix yourself Christianity", but Scripture is very clear about one thing. God has said those who are His children "Be ye holy, for I am holy". If that does not mean a change in a Christian through the power of the Holy Spirit, you tell us what that means. Loving God = keeping His commandments.

 

[Cee]

Not sure what you mean by "fix yourself Christianity", but Scripture is very clear about one thing. God has said those who are His children "Be ye holy, for I am holy". If that does not mean a change in a Christian through the power of the Holy Spirit, you tell us what that means. Loving God = keeping His commandments.

It means be like Me. Because we are the sons of God. Like you said by the power of the Holy Spirit. And keeping His commands is fulfilled by loving one another.

 

[Ralph-]

I can tell how much a person knows God by their focus on love and on Him. In Scripture the focus on sin wasn’t to lead them to themselves to change themselves, but to see Him and His available grace in a new way. A new way that by faith would set them free. Fix yourself Christianity doesn’t work, if it did people who continually preach we need works would have more of them themselves.

Paul, particularly, speaks at length about the need for works. Ephesians chapters 4-6 and Colossians 3 are good examples. Does this mean Paul promoted 'Fix yourself Christianity'?