-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I seem to have stopped quoting one line too soon. I thought that the following line was part of verse 7:
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
So, to you this proves that Jesus is the Father.
That is okay, I won't condemn you for this. I don't agree that Jesus is the Father. I hope that you don't condemn me for what I believe.
Sorry for the confusion I caused.
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
So, to you this proves that Jesus is the Father.
That is okay, I won't condemn you for this. I don't agree that Jesus is the Father. I hope that you don't condemn me for what I believe.
Sorry for the confusion I caused.
Hi Phil,
I don't really believe that oneness should actually be classified as heresy. The distinction is really subtle, and it does not seem to me to deny Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, nor does it seem to speak against the Holy Spirit. I also don't see that anything one can say will change another person's mind about this belief. I know that I won't be change in believing that Jesus and the Father are separate individuals, except revelation from the Holy Spirit.
Blessings brother,
vic
I don't really believe that oneness should actually be classified as heresy. The distinction is really subtle, and it does not seem to me to deny Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, nor does it seem to speak against the Holy Spirit. I also don't see that anything one can say will change another person's mind about this belief. I know that I won't be change in believing that Jesus and the Father are separate individuals, except revelation from the Holy Spirit.
Blessings brother,
vic
I think that the use of the word heresy was an unfortunate choice. And I also think that heresy and heretic are two entirely separate things. I believe that we should be careful in the use of these two words. I don't believe that anyone here has entirely perfect truth about the Godhead. There is much we will learn, I believe that we will be learning Him from now on, into eternity.
Blessings In His name sister,
vic
Hi VW,
There is nothing subtle about it... it 'modalism' with a new name. I am not saying what I will say will change their minds, that was not the intent of my post. The intent was for us to wake up and smell the coffee and stop pandering after every heresy. where do we go next? maybe a bit of Pelagianism? Arianism? they could be argued for couldnt they? yet they are not truth. neither is 'oneness' it is as plane as that.
The only 'subtle' thing about oneness is how they try to explain it, very much similar to mormons using christian terminology to make you think they are the same as you. the best lies are very subtle... remember the Garden of Eden incident.. the best lies are based around truth!!
Im not sure if you have quite caught what oneness are saying... basically there was no Jesus or Holy Spirit just differing office names to suit differing office tasks. in fact dmurray said it himself. he has three titles yet he is dmurray.. certainly is not the God of Scripture.
Heresy is heresy, wether it is subtle or not.. in this case it is not subtle... the language used may be but the heresy remains the same.
Blessings
Phil
Well, I still have to disagree with you because they still believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
I am not prepared to say that believers in this are not christian. In fact, just because one believes in the trinity would not make them saved, any more than not believing in the trinity would make one to be unsaved.
Am I wrong?
Blessings,
vic
I am not prepared to say that believers in this are not christian. In fact, just because one believes in the trinity would not make them saved, any more than not believing in the trinity would make one to be unsaved.
Am I wrong?
Blessings,
vic
Many people believe in the Trinity yet are not saved I agree with you there, however that is not the heart of the issue. The heart of the issue is teaching unbiblical doctrines as truth, that is the heart of the matter!
I think you are maybe getting confused, by what they exactly mean that Jesus came in the flesh. Lets be totally honest, even the Satan has a better grasp of what went on when Jesus came in the flesh than 'modalism' or 'oneness' I may have raised some eyebrows. but if don't stand guard by the truth we will start pandering after every whim and breeze and 'subtle' lie that gets tossed before us.
And you are right in a previous post that we will never truly understand the fulness of the trinity for our minutiae created brains cannot possibly fathom the depths and heights of God. But we can have an assurance of one God but 3 persons of the same substance.
Just one last thing, according to you, anyone who says Jesus came in the flesh is christian??
Blessings
Phil
I think you are maybe getting confused, by what they exactly mean that Jesus came in the flesh. Lets be totally honest, even the Satan has a better grasp of what went on when Jesus came in the flesh than 'modalism' or 'oneness' I may have raised some eyebrows. but if don't stand guard by the truth we will start pandering after every whim and breeze and 'subtle' lie that gets tossed before us.
And you are right in a previous post that we will never truly understand the fulness of the trinity for our minutiae created brains cannot possibly fathom the depths and heights of God. But we can have an assurance of one God but 3 persons of the same substance.
Just one last thing, according to you, anyone who says Jesus came in the flesh is christian??
Blessings
Phil
Re: Dr. David Bernard - The Identity of Jesus Christ
'' I am who I am'' is God's title!. Jesus is the title of the Son and God's Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
YYou arte totally correct to say Jesus is God, So is the Holy Spirit and ''I am who I am'' all three are one God yet seperate 'persons' for a lack of a better word, this is not to say they are individualistic for that would be false but of the same substance. All three members of the Godhead work together in perfect harmony, perfect relationship and Holiness.
Blessings
Phil
which is it Phil?
are they "individualistic" or not? and why do you qualify your use of the word "persons"? it seems to work for you in other posts. not so sure of your MIRACULOUS GRASP of the GodHead?
i don't speak for anyone else on this thread, not the Oneness thing or any other thing you talk about. i don't know about that. i speak for myself here.
but you are SO sure of yourself that you dare to sit in judgment of a Christian who professes that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God? that the Word was God and the Word became flesh? God manifest in the flesh to make a full and finished work of Atoning for the sins of men, and was Raised from the Dead?
and that salvation is by faith alone in the finshed work of Jesus the Christ?
and you dare to equate what i and others have written to describe our understanding of the GodHead as the work of SATAN IN THE GARDEN?
the only problem with being God's Hammer, Phil is that EVERYONE becomes a nail. it's you who has a problem.
According to John, every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.
I have a friend, been my friend for over 30 years, and during that time, we have both been receiving revelation from the Spirit into the nature of God and what He wants from us, what is important. Many times, too many to count, we have disagreed over these things. One of us would try to convince the other, and many times there was actually doubt raised rather than increased faith and love. We have learned, over the many discussions we have had, to let the other speak, listen to the Spirit in our hearts, and share what is given rather than challenge what the other says. We have been doing this for a long time now, and it works. We have actually grown closer and closer in our thoughts and beliefs rather than apart. This because we know in our hearts that the other is in Jesus, and we each seek to see what the Spirit says about what we hear.
There are many things which we believe that although they are right and correct, can be a stumbling block to others, if we lay them out in a certain fashion. I only ask that we think on this, and seek the Spirit about what we should say, and how we should say it. In the end, He is the arbiter of all truth, at least I believe Him to be so.
In His peace and love,
vic
I have a friend, been my friend for over 30 years, and during that time, we have both been receiving revelation from the Spirit into the nature of God and what He wants from us, what is important. Many times, too many to count, we have disagreed over these things. One of us would try to convince the other, and many times there was actually doubt raised rather than increased faith and love. We have learned, over the many discussions we have had, to let the other speak, listen to the Spirit in our hearts, and share what is given rather than challenge what the other says. We have been doing this for a long time now, and it works. We have actually grown closer and closer in our thoughts and beliefs rather than apart. This because we know in our hearts that the other is in Jesus, and we each seek to see what the Spirit says about what we hear.
There are many things which we believe that although they are right and correct, can be a stumbling block to others, if we lay them out in a certain fashion. I only ask that we think on this, and seek the Spirit about what we should say, and how we should say it. In the end, He is the arbiter of all truth, at least I believe Him to be so.
In His peace and love,
vic
Leaving aside weho is right and who is wrong John also said
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God God lives in him amd he in God. 1John4:15
So you do not have to acknowledge Jesus is God Himself for true Christianity. But many who say Jesus is God Himself say you do. This is unscriptural
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God God lives in him amd he in God. 1John4:15
So you do not have to acknowledge Jesus is God Himself for true Christianity. But many who say Jesus is God Himself say you do. This is unscriptural
That is true. I would not dream of saying that someone had to believe as I do, exactly as I do, in order to be saved, but some do this.
We say that Jesus is God. I believe that He is God. But He is not the Father. He is the representative of the Father and the Father is in Him, and He is in the Father. In fact, the Father was in Him reconciling the creation back to Himself.
I really like that whole passage in 1st John starting with verse 12 about God living in us and His love in us.
'No one has beheld God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us His Spirit. And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. And we have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
I know that this is a touchy subject, but I do believe that we should be careful of how we address ourselves to those who believe differently. I believe that we should stand in love first, middle, and last. I just don't think that calling what others believe heresy is bearing good fruit. I am not saying that this is not an important issue, but rather how we treat others is more important. Answer what we believe, back it up with scripture, but hold back on strong words.
Anyway, that is just what I believe.
Blessings brother,
vic
I believe you are on safe ground. If someone calls a person a heretic that God has accepted then that person will have to answer for that on the day of judgement.
Scripture says that if we believe Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in us. It does not say. If we believe Jesus is God Himself God lives in us. I am not debating here whose opinion is right or wrong, simply stating scripturally what is needed to be a true Christian
Scripture says that if we believe Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in us. It does not say. If we believe Jesus is God Himself God lives in us. I am not debating here whose opinion is right or wrong, simply stating scripturally what is needed to be a true Christian
A
If someone calls a person who practices and expouses heresy (leading others into their error) a heretic while correcting them, there is no condemnation in that. They are simply pointing out the truth and there is no condemnation in the truth only in the heresy.
The word Heresy in scripture is the Greek word [hairesis], from the root [haireomai], which literally means "a choosing," and by extension, a choice of one side over another, hence faction, party or sect. Heresy is, a matter of choice.
In the biblical Christian application (and this is an important distinction) Heresy refers to any doctrine held by any faction or party that departs from essential Christian truths in disunion with the established laws of God. Parties, sects or factions holding to such caustic doctrines, alienate themselves from the body and are called Heretics.
Excommunicated cults certainly qualify.
1st Corinthians 11:18-19
"For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."
Now God loves them very much and wants them to simply abandon their heresies and come into the truth. It's a decision they certainly can make and those of us who are in the truth pray they do.
Again, if you have been called a heretic and are not practicing or teaching excommunicated heresy then the person made a false assertion as opposed to a true one. correct them and go do something good
Case closed.
The word Heresy in scripture is the Greek word [hairesis], from the root [haireomai], which literally means "a choosing," and by extension, a choice of one side over another, hence faction, party or sect. Heresy is, a matter of choice.
In the biblical Christian application (and this is an important distinction) Heresy refers to any doctrine held by any faction or party that departs from essential Christian truths in disunion with the established laws of God. Parties, sects or factions holding to such caustic doctrines, alienate themselves from the body and are called Heretics.
Excommunicated cults certainly qualify.
1st Corinthians 11:18-19
"For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."
Now God loves them very much and wants them to simply abandon their heresies and come into the truth. It's a decision they certainly can make and those of us who are in the truth pray they do.
Again, if you have been called a heretic and are not practicing or teaching excommunicated heresy then the person made a false assertion as opposed to a true one. correct them and go do something good
Case closed.
I
John 4:19-22
The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
The Jews never heard of a trinity as they knew exactly what they worshiped. So many people that hold to the trinitarian view seem to all come to an " our mortal minds can't phathom how this works but it is truth" conclusion whenever the dead end approaches on this subject. I choose to take a common sense approach to scripture.
1. The terms, father and son are given in the Bible for a reason and to the best of my ability, I have yet to see any son that did not come after his father; nor have I seen any son who has been in existence for as long as his father. How is this possible given the clear terms that our Bible uses?
2. If God is a Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is a spirit, how are there TWO spirit beings in one triune god?
In my Bible, God has a proper name (YHWH), and the Son has a proper name (Yeshua or Jesus).
Why doesn't the Holy Spirit have a name if he is also God? And in Revelation why is he not getting any
recognition for the work he has done in all of this? I see the Father and the Son, but where is he at?
3. If the God of the old testament said that beside Him there were no other gods, would not three revealed beings in one triune god make the OT God a liar? I mean, no matter how you slice it, three is three.
The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
The Jews never heard of a trinity as they knew exactly what they worshiped. So many people that hold to the trinitarian view seem to all come to an " our mortal minds can't phathom how this works but it is truth" conclusion whenever the dead end approaches on this subject. I choose to take a common sense approach to scripture.
1. The terms, father and son are given in the Bible for a reason and to the best of my ability, I have yet to see any son that did not come after his father; nor have I seen any son who has been in existence for as long as his father. How is this possible given the clear terms that our Bible uses?
2. If God is a Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is a spirit, how are there TWO spirit beings in one triune god?
In my Bible, God has a proper name (YHWH), and the Son has a proper name (Yeshua or Jesus).
Why doesn't the Holy Spirit have a name if he is also God? And in Revelation why is he not getting any
recognition for the work he has done in all of this? I see the Father and the Son, but where is he at?
3. If the God of the old testament said that beside Him there were no other gods, would not three revealed beings in one triune god make the OT God a liar? I mean, no matter how you slice it, three is three.
I like what you say here ed.
You know I go on a UK Christian chat site frequently. There is a Roman Catholic on there. Theologically we would disagree on much. But he never condemns anyone. When he is spoken to unkindly he replies in love. When his denomination is attacked he replies in kindness. He is always ready to offer support if someone needs it.
But he says about Jesus. 'It is all about him, not us,' and he knows in his heart that he is saved because Jesus died for him.
That man gives me sleepless nights I will admit. Because although I may not believe he is doctrinally spot on I know he is where the heart of the Gospel is concerned. And without that we are all simply making a noise. So I am left wondering, why if my doctrine is so important according to the letter of scripture I do not show the heart of the Gospel to the same extent he does.
It's because it is all about the heart isn't it. And if we love God and believe that his Son died for our sins, if we truly repent of our sin and and ask him into our lives as Lord and Saviour, we are saved. And after that we can disagree on anything we want, but according to Jesus we are saved. But does man always see it the same way Jesus did?
Some, and I include myself here can become so fixated with learning, searching scripture and books, desiring to know the absolute truth of doctrine that we can miss out on the very heart of the Gospel. And if that happens all the learning was simply a waste of time.
I know it hasn't happened to you
God Bless
You know I go on a UK Christian chat site frequently. There is a Roman Catholic on there. Theologically we would disagree on much. But he never condemns anyone. When he is spoken to unkindly he replies in love. When his denomination is attacked he replies in kindness. He is always ready to offer support if someone needs it.
But he says about Jesus. 'It is all about him, not us,' and he knows in his heart that he is saved because Jesus died for him.
That man gives me sleepless nights I will admit. Because although I may not believe he is doctrinally spot on I know he is where the heart of the Gospel is concerned. And without that we are all simply making a noise. So I am left wondering, why if my doctrine is so important according to the letter of scripture I do not show the heart of the Gospel to the same extent he does.
It's because it is all about the heart isn't it. And if we love God and believe that his Son died for our sins, if we truly repent of our sin and and ask him into our lives as Lord and Saviour, we are saved. And after that we can disagree on anything we want, but according to Jesus we are saved. But does man always see it the same way Jesus did?
Some, and I include myself here can become so fixated with learning, searching scripture and books, desiring to know the absolute truth of doctrine that we can miss out on the very heart of the Gospel. And if that happens all the learning was simply a waste of time.
I know it hasn't happened to you
God Bless
If someone calls a person who practices and expouses heresy (leading others into their error) a heretic while correcting them, there is no condemnation in that. They are simply pointing out the truth and there is no condemnation in the truth only in the heresy.
The word Heresy in scripture is the Greek word [hairesis], from the root [haireomai], which literally means "a choosing," and by extension, a choice of one side over another, hence faction, party or sect. Heresy is, a matter of choice.
In the biblical Christian application (and this is an important distinction) Heresy refers to any doctrine held by any faction or party that departs from essential Christian truths in disunion with the established laws of God. Parties, sects or factions holding to such caustic doctrines, alienate themselves from the body and are called Heretics.
Excommunicated cults certainly qualify.
1st Corinthians 11:18-19
"For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."
Now God loves them very much and wants them to simply abandon their heresies and come into the truth. It's a decision they certainly can make and those of us who are in the truth pray they do.
Again, if you have been called a heretic and are not practicing or teaching excommunicated heresy then the person made a false assertion as opposed to a true one. correct them and go do something good
Case closed.
The word Heresy in scripture is the Greek word [hairesis], from the root [haireomai], which literally means "a choosing," and by extension, a choice of one side over another, hence faction, party or sect. Heresy is, a matter of choice.
In the biblical Christian application (and this is an important distinction) Heresy refers to any doctrine held by any faction or party that departs from essential Christian truths in disunion with the established laws of God. Parties, sects or factions holding to such caustic doctrines, alienate themselves from the body and are called Heretics.
Excommunicated cults certainly qualify.
1st Corinthians 11:18-19
"For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."
Now God loves them very much and wants them to simply abandon their heresies and come into the truth. It's a decision they certainly can make and those of us who are in the truth pray they do.
Again, if you have been called a heretic and are not practicing or teaching excommunicated heresy then the person made a false assertion as opposed to a true one. correct them and go do something good
Case closed.
We can be right all day long, but be wrong, because we have not loved.