Not By Works

[VCO]

This site is a great place to discuss the differences between the different gospel preaching denominations. Always keep in mind to agree to disagree about the differences. For example I am a Calvinist therefore disagree with Armenians. However I know there is a possibility that I am wrong. We will all learn our errors when we are with Jesus.

I am just a 3 point Calvinist, so nobody wants to claim me. I am guess the only title that is mine, is a Christian. LOL, I kind of like that.

 

[dcontroversal]

Born again is actually quite simple, people make it hard when it does not have to be

the bible says we are dead because of sin,

the bible says we who were dead in tresspasses and sin have been “made alive” in christ, together eith him, and in the spirit” (numerous passages)

the bible has terms for it

justified (declaired righteous)
Eternal life
redeemed
forgiven
adopted
saved

one of the best passages other than john 3 on new birth or regeneration is titus 3:5 where pauls says, “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy, he saved us, by the washing and regeneration (new birth) of the holy spirit”

its not rocket science, it us the simplicity found in christ,

Amen to this simple, easy to understand truth that gets put into the proverbial "tar pit" by religionists and their working for law keeping false dogma!

 

[dcontroversal]

let me know what you think about what jesus had said now that you have read the truth and not a jesus being cut off halfway

Listen Pal.....your working for dogma is not found in scripture and what is your point exactly....the words of Jesus are clear enough......

a. They claim to know Jesus and call him Lord
b. They believe their works earned them a right to enter
c. They are not saved and are cast away

THE ABOVE IS THE EPITOME OF MOST so called Christian religions in some form or fashion......

 

[justsomeone123]

Why do you suppose that HE gave us these Instructions?


Ephesians 4:11-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Then we will no longer be little children, tossed by the waves and blown around by every wind of teaching, by human cunning with cleverness in the techniques of deceit.


Find a good BIBLE TEACHING CHURCH, and submit to those spiritually gifted to Teach.


Romans 10:14-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But how can they call on Him they have not believed in? And how can they believe without hearing about Him? And how can they hear without a preacher?
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How beautiful are the feet of those who announce the gospel of good things!
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But all did not obey the gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our message?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.


You should be able to find a BIBLE TEACHING near you, and read through their Statement of Faith first to see if you agree with it. Then when there are any questions about what they mean by what they said in their Statement of Faith, or some unanswered questions, DO FEEL YOU NEED CALL AND MAKE AN APPOINTMENT TO VISIT THE CHURCH FIRST, AND ASK THE PASTOR PERSONALLY FOR HIS EXPLANATION OF YOUR QUESTIONS. For Example, I always ask "Do you believe in ordaining women?" Because I personally believe that is forbidden by God, 1 Timothy 2:12.

I have done that with EVERY Church that I have attended since I was Born Again in 1977, and we moved a lot.


Here is a typical Statement of Faith, that I can agree with:

• We believe the Bible to be the inspired, and is infallible in it's original language manuscripts, therefore it is the authoritative Word of God. 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 3:15-17.

• We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19; John 10:30; Ephesians 4:4-6.

• We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory. Matthew 1:23; John 1:1-4 and 1:29; Acts 1:11 and 2:22-24; Romans 8:34; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 2:5-11; Hebrews 1:1-4 and 4:15.

• We believe that all men everywhere are lost and face the judgment of God, that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation, and that for the salvation of lost and sinful man, repentance of sin and faith in Jesus Christ results in regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Luke 24:46-47; John 14:6; Acts 4:12; Romans 3:23; 2 Corinthians 5:10-11; Ephesians 1:7 and 2:8-9; Titus 3:4-7.

• We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit, whose indwelling enables the Christian to live a godly lifestyle, and when we fail, brings conviction and repentance of each new sin. John 3:5-8; Acts 1:8; Romans 8:9; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Galatians 5:16-18; Ephesians 6:12; Colossians 2:6-10, 1 John 1:9, Revelation 3:19.

• We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; the saved unto the resurrection of eternal life and the lost unto the resurrection of damnation and eternal punishment. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; Revelation 20:11-15.

• We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ and that all true believers are members of His body, the Church. 1 Corinthians 12:12, 27; Ephesians 1:22-23.

• We believe that the ministry of evangelism and discipleship is a responsibility of all followers of Jesus Christ. Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; Romans 10:9-15; 1 Peter 3:15.

before I go to the new testament I want to ask you some questions who convinced pilot to kill jesus?why did the religious leaders hate jesus so much?why did jesus get mad and flip tables over? why did jesus destroy the temple? why does jesus say one thing and the religious leaders say another? if these religious leaders from now come in jesus name why do they contradict jesus's teachings?

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 32:8, “Let Me instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; Let Me counsel, My eye be on you.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens. Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?’ And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!”

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]lawlessness[/FONT]" and "iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness[/FONT]


"[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]lawlessness[/FONT]" and “[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]iniquity” is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]458-anomia, Strong's Concordance, anomia: lawlessness, Original Word: ἀνομία, ας, ἡ, Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine, Transliteration: anomia, Phonetic Spelling: (an-om-ee'-ah), Short Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, “Let us hear the conclusion of the entire matter: Fear Yah and guard His commands, for this applies to all mankind! For Yah shall bring every work into right-ruling, including all that is hidden, whether righteous or whether evil.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Yahanan (John) 2:4, "He who says: I know Him, but does not keep His Law, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."[/FONT]

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 8:20, "To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Deuteronomy 5:22, “These Words [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a loud voice, and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 53:12, “Therefore I give Him a portion among the great, and He divides the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His being unto death, and He was counted with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and possessing the Witness of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 19:17-19, "And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – YHWH. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the commands.” He said to Him, “Which?” And [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Respect your father and your mother’ and ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mark 10:45, “For even the Son of Aḏam did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”[/FONT]

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen! In James 2:21, we see that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it showed or manifested that his faith was genuine. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Romans 4:9 - Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.

Gotta love these people who open their mouth without the facts.........those who peddle a working for dogma so remind me of the street organ player with a dancing monkey in Bombay.....and their dogma is worth about as much as the few coins tossed into the till by those descibed by P.T. Barnum......!

 

[dcontroversal]

So you think DC thinks a believer can be licentious person who is a hearer of the word only and not a doer?

it is obvious you do not know him at all.

Amen bro...........

 

[dcontroversal]

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So what.......had nothing to do with him being declared righteous by FAITH WITHOUT WORKS.....and your fatalistic flawed dogma will never make the cut....

Romans 4:1-8

 

[Cee]

We must look to Christ not the Law for our freedom. Paul considered it all garbage (all of his law keeping and pedigrees) compared to knowing Christ. In my opinion, what Paul is saying is that we live this life by growing in knowing a Person not by trying to do a bunch of stuff to make ourselves righteous.

 

[dcontroversal]

Gee, this guy really is a sucker for punishment...

No worry - just another opportunity to present the Gospel - justification by grace through faith....

Amen.......P.T. Barnism and the three ringed circus......

 

[dcontroversal]

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (transgression of God's Commandments)

Every religion has works EG, even yours.

The difference between ours and yours....we point 100% to Christ....you on the other hand devaule the work of Christ and interject self.........

 

[dcontroversal]

Faith without works is dead.

So......faith alone is what saves...works do not add or top off salvation like a mug of beer in a pub!.....Well...maybe in your religion....

 

[Shamah]

We must look to Christ not the Law for our freedom. Paul considered it all garbage (all of his law keeping and pedigrees) compared to knowing Christ. In my opinion, what Paul is saying is that we live this life by growing in knowing a Person not by trying to do a bunch of stuff to make ourselves righteous.

while the Law does not save, you are missinga KEY point of Paul saying that:

Philippians 3:5-8,5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;"6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless."7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ."8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ"

The Pharisees had their own man made law:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 15:3-9, “But He answering, said to them, “Why do you also transgress the command of YHWH because of your tradition? For YHWH has commanded, saying, ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me has been dedicated, is certainly released from respecting his father or mother.’ So you have nullified the command of YHWH by your tradition."Hypocrites! Well did Isayah (29:13-14*) prophesy of you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

SO when Paul says "Philippians 3:5-8,5; as to the law, a Pharisee"
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This cant be ignored what it means if we are seeking truth.

As Paul taught and kept Yah's Law post MEssiah's Scrifice:


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I (Paul) worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 7:19, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of Yah?"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), YHWH; for it is not subject to the Law of YHWH, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please YHWH."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:12, "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ephesians 6:2-3, "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise: That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."

Thing is people dont really know the word, they isolate and twist Paul's word, focusing on the parts that suppotrt their doctrine while ignoring what Yahshua/Jesus said. 2 Peter warns of not taking Paul's writings to teach Lawlessness
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Peter/Kepha 3:15-17, "and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Paul/Sha’ul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures. You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the delusion of the lawless, but grow in the favor and knowledge of our Master and Savior [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that abides. Amĕn.”[/FONT]

 

[dcontroversal]

works are the byproduct of living faith.

Yep.....but they do not top off, finish, embellish, complete, help gain, keep or acquire salvation.....that is given FREELY BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH and is eternal and a current possession at the moment of belief!

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 10:36, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of Yah you may receive what is promised.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 3:14, “For we have become partakers of Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 3:12, "He who overcomes, I will make a pillar in The House of My Father, and he will never go out of it. And I will write upon him the Name of My Father, and the Name of the New Yerusalem which comes down out of heaven from My Father, newly named."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."[/FONT]

 

[Marcelo]

Originally Posted by Studyman

Faith without works is dead.


Faith without good works is dead -- not works of the law of Moses.

 

[dcontroversal]

And your point is?

We all know his point faith plus religionist hoop jumping because Christ and his sacrifice is not sufficient.....

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so belief without works is dead also."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."

James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so belief without works is dead also."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”


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[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]