Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
What kind of works are these "people" doing that makes them think that it is worthy of earning salvation?
Does not matter....1, 2, 5, or 100 million righteous works in the name of Jesus, none will save, top off salvation, earn salvstion, keep salvation, finish salvation, embellish salvation or any other applicable word connected to salvation....

Salvation is eternally given at the moment of belief anf based entirely upon faith and grace!
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
"Works or Faith?

Answer:
This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?

The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works".

=========================


Paul and James are both correct; One speaks of works and one speaks of faith. One teaching does not negate the other. The conclusion that when the heart towards Christ is correct...then faith will produce good works....is utmost correct.

The problem of dis-agreement usually reflects failure to understand G-d's meaning and intent in His teachings...as we see here in this thread.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of Yah and possessing the witness of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
if jesus tells you to jump off a mountain that it's ok he gots you and you say no I don't have to jump because I have faith.....well if you have faith wouldn't you jump I mean I don't get what people mean you don't have to do anything just have faith....faith is the fuel for you to do what jesus told you to do which is good works
He "gots" you........really!!! Wow
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
while the Law does not save, you are missinga KEY point of Paul saying that:

Philippians 3:5-8,5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;"6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless."7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ."8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ"

The Pharisees had their own man made law:

Mat 15:3-9, “But He answering, said to them, “Why do you also transgress the command of YHWH because of your tradition? For YHWH has commanded, saying, ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me has been dedicated, is certainly released from respecting his father or mother.’ So you have nullified the command of YHWH by your tradition."Hypocrites! Well did Isayah (29:13-14*) prophesy of you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

SO when Paul says "Philippians 3:5-8,5; as to the law, a Pharisee"

This cant be ignored what it means if we are seeking truth.

As Paul taught and kept Yah's Law post MEssiah's Scrifice:


Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."


Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I (Paul) worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."


Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."


Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."


1 Corinthians 7:19, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of Yah?"


Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), YHWH; for it is not subject to the Law of YHWH, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please YHWH."


Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"


1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."


Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."


Romans 7:12, "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous."


Ephesians 6:2-3, "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise: That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."

Thing is people dont really know the word, they isolate and twist Paul's word, focusing on the parts that suppotrt their doctrine while ignoring what Yahshua/Jesus said. 2 Peter warns of not taking Paul's writings to teach Lawlessness




2 Peter/Kepha 3:15-17, "and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Paul/Sha’ul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures. You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the delusion of the lawless, but grow in the favor and knowledge of our Master and Savior יהושע Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that abides. Amĕn.”
Yes I’ve heard this, but I don’t agree. Anything we do to make ourselves righteous apart from Christ becomes a law unto ourselves. And we are judged by it.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
if jesus tells you to jump off a mountain that it's ok he gots you and you say no I don't have to jump because I have faith.....well if you have faith wouldn't you jump I mean I don't get what people mean you don't have to do anything just have faith....faith is the fuel for you to do what jesus told you to do which is good works
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."[/FONT]
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Yes I’ve heard this, but I don’t agree. Anything we do to make ourselves righteous apart from Christ becomes a law unto ourselves. And we are judged by it.
Well Paul did say he touched the Law as a Pharisee, the Pharisees did make their own law...

And as far as judgement, all will be judgedby the same standard according to Paul:

Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”

as far s "being a Law onto ones self":

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 2:14-15, "14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law." Who show the work of the Torah written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing (condemming sin) or even excusing (justifying sin)."


WHy?

THis:

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

but how can one have something in their heart and reject it at the same time?
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT]


 
Last edited:
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
you can't do something for jesus/allah/or whoever you think is God and not have faith in your God its faith the reason why you do it in the first place
No offence, but to Compare Jesus to Allah or whoever you think is God devalues Jesus....please do not put my GOD on the same level as those satanic false gods with a small g!
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Well Paul did say he touched the Law as a Pharisee, the Pharisees did make their own law...

And as far as judgement, all will be judgedby the same standard according to Paul:

Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”
Yes, if we try to keep the Law for righteousness, we will be judged by it. But I am dead to the Law and alive to Christ. I keep His commandment by loving as He loves me. And love fulfills the Law even though I don’t try to keep it, the life of Christ in me bears His fruit, I abide in Him and He abides in me. In Him, I am free.
 
Last edited:
A

Ariel82

Guest
Only thread that still afloat from the Indian spammer...wonder how long before he gets banned.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Well Paul did say he touched the Law as a Pharisee, the Pharisees did make their own law...

And as far as judgement, all will be judgedby the same standard according to Paul:

Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”

as far s "being a Law onto ones self":

Romans 2:14-15, "14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law." Who show the work of the Torah written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing (condemming sin) or even excusing (justifying sin)."

WHy? THis:

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

but how can one have something in their heart and reject it at the same time?

Yes, if we try to keep the Law for righteousness, we will be judged by it. But I am dead to the Law and alive to Christ. I keep His commandment by loving as He loves me. And love fulfills the Law even though I don’t try to keep it, the life of Christ in me bears His fruit, I abide in Him and He abides in me. In Him, I am free.
But it does not say "if we try to keep the Law for righteousness, we will be judged by it"

Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”

It says those without the Law will die and those with the Law will be judged by it.

and "dead to the Law" I think you are mixed up as to what Law followrs of Yahshiua are dead to:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:28, “For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:31, “Are we then doing away with the Law* through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law*!”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*“Law” is word # G3551 – nomos, Strong's Concordance, nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law, Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ, Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine, Transliteration: nomos, Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os), Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law, Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of, law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law;, metion: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:16, "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans, “6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin* that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*What is sin, that we may not continue in it and thus have “died to sin”?[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:25, “Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 8:2, “Because through Yahshua Messiah, the Law of the Spirit has set me free from the law of sin and death.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:12-23, “Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its desires, neither present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. For sin shall not rule over you, for you are not under the law but under favor. (Gen 4:7, “Is it not if you do good, you are to be accepted? And if you do not do good, towards the door is a sin, it is lying and towards you is his desire, and you must rule over it.”) What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Torah but under unmerited mercy? Let it not be! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? But thanks to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]that you were servants of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of teaching to which you were entrusted. And having been set free from sin, you became servants of righteousness. I speak as a man, because of the weakness of your flesh. For even as you did present your members as servants of uncleanness, and of lawlessness resulting in lawlessness, so now present your members as servants of righteousness resulting in set-apartness. For when you were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. What fruit, therefore, were you having then, over which you are now ashamed? For the end thereof is death. But now, having been set free from sin, and having become servants of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], you have your fruit resulting in set-apartness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the favorable gift of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is everlasting life in Messiah [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]our Master.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7 -[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]13 Did that which is righteous, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through that which was righteous, so that through the commandments, sin might become utterly sinful.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin*.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "...for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7 -[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]16 And if I did what I did not want to do, I agreed that the Law is righteous.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]17 As it was, it was no longer I myself who did it, but it was sin living in me.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]22 For I delight in the Law of YHWH according to the inward man;[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]23 But I saw another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the Law in my mind, and bringing me into captivity of the law of sin, which is in my members.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]25 Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.

it is "the law of sin" we are supposed to be dead to, not the "Law of God"

I agree the intent and the true teaching of the Law is love, but to say the Law is gone and then say "I love" is making our own version of what love is and not seeking His version of LOVE:

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]


 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
We must look to Christ not the Law for our freedom. Paul considered it all garbage (all of his law keeping and pedigrees) compared to knowing Christ. In my opinion, what Paul is saying is that we live this life by growing in knowing a Person not by trying to do a bunch of stuff to make ourselves righteous.
I remember the word crap being inspired......and the tragic truth......he used the same word that is employed in our time frame.....but from a 1st century perspective...... ;)
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
Yes I’ve heard this, but I don’t agree. Anything we do to make ourselves righteous apart from Christ becomes a law unto ourselves. And we are judged by it.
Lawyers and Pharisees cannot grasp anything beyond the letter of the law......
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Lawyers and Pharisees cannot grasp anything beyond the letter of the law......
yet most dont know what the letter or the spirit of the law is but make teir own non-Scriptual meaning.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the (intent of the) Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Here is an example of the Letter v the Spirit for those who have no clue what Israel did 2,000 years ago and still do;[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Deuteronomy 5:22, “These Words [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a loud voice, and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Deuteronomy 6:8, “and shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Deuteronomy 11:18, “And you shall lay up these Words of Mine in your heart and in your being, and shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Spirit or letter? The Spirit says one thing The letter can be twisted continually[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This is how Judaism “keeps” the “letter” of the Law and not the Spirit:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -
Tefillin (Askhenazic: /ˈtfɪlᵻn/; Israeli Hebrew: [tfiˈlin], ),
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]תפילין [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]also called phylacteries (/fɪˈlæktəriːz/ from Ancient Greek φυλακτήριον phylacterion, form of phylássein, φυλάσσειν meaning "to guard, protect"), are a set of small black leather boxes containing scrolls of parchment inscribed with verses from the Torah. They are worn by male observant Jews during weekday morning prayers.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...lin.jpg/599px-IDF_soldier_put_on_tefillin.jpg
[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Rather than have the Law in their heart they “followed it” letter letter for letter, they tied the paper on which the Law was written to their head and arm.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The proper implication of this Law would be to Spiritually binding them to your hand by doing the Laws in ones life. Spiritually binding them as a frontlet between your eyes would be keeping them in your mind.…[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
Yes, if we try to keep the Law for righteousness, we will be judged by it. But I am dead to the Law and alive to Christ. I keep His commandment by loving as He loves me. And love fulfills the Law even though I don’t try to keep it, the life of Christ in me bears His fruit, I abide in Him and He abides in me. In Him, I am free.
I think since the Messiah is the one who did so much for us that we should listen to Him. Your post sounds real nice, but there is so much scripture which says differently. I have posted them before and you have chosen to not consider them. Maybe my post was too long so this time I will only post one to keep it short.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (Mans) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Messiah created the Way, laid down His Life to erase my past sins, and showed us how to "walk" the Path through His Life.

All we have to do is Love Him, Trust Him enough to "walk" in the "Good Works" that He created so long ago for us to walk in as did Abraham, Caleb, Zechariahs and so many more.

I think it is an error to believe the teaching that The Word which became Flesh created this path, cleared the way for us with His own Blood, and now is walking this path for us so we don't have to. It is a popular religious doctrine, I'm sure it fill the pews, but the scriptures don't agree.

He has done His Part, now we have our part. To believe in Him enough to do as He says.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
But it does not say "if we try to keep the Law for righteousness, we will be judged by it"

Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”

It says those without the Law will die and those with the Law will be judged by it.

and "dead to the Law" I think you are mixed up as to what Law followrs of Yahshiua are dead to:

Romans 3:28, “For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.”


Romans 3:31, “Are we then doing away with the Law* through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law*!”


*“Law” is word # G3551 – nomos, Strong's Concordance, nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law, Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ, Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine, Transliteration: nomos, Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os), Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law, Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of, law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law;, metion: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general


Romans 6:16, "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?"


Romans, “6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin* that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"


*What is sin, that we may not continue in it and thus have “died to sin”?


1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."


Romans 7:25, “Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.”


Romans 8:2, “Because through Yahshua Messiah, the Law of the Spirit has set me free from the law of sin and death.”


Romans 6:12-23, “Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its desires, neither present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to יהוה as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to יהוה. For sin shall not rule over you, for you are not under the law but under favor. (Gen 4:7, “Is it not if you do good, you are to be accepted? And if you do not do good, towards the door is a sin, it is lying and towards you is his desire, and you must rule over it.”) What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Torah but under unmerited mercy? Let it not be! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? But thanks to יהוה that you were servants of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of teaching to which you were entrusted. And having been set free from sin, you became servants of righteousness. I speak as a man, because of the weakness of your flesh. For even as you did present your members as servants of uncleanness, and of lawlessness resulting in lawlessness, so now present your members as servants of righteousness resulting in set-apartness. For when you were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. What fruit, therefore, were you having then, over which you are now ashamed? For the end thereof is death. But now, having been set free from sin, and having become servants of יהוה, you have your fruit resulting in set-apartness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the favorable gift of יהוהis everlasting life in Messiah יהושע our Master.”


Romans 7 -
7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet.
12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous.
13 Did that which is righteous, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through that which was righteous, so that through the commandments, sin might become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin*.


1 John 3:4, "...for sin is the transgression of the Law."


Romans 7 -
16 And if I did what I did not want to do, I agreed that the Law is righteous.
17 As it was, it was no longer I myself who did it, but it was sin living in me.
22 For I delight in the Law of YHWH according to the inward man;
23 But I saw another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the Law in my mind, and bringing me into captivity of the law of sin, which is in my members.
25 Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.

it is "the law of sin" we are supposed to be dead to, not the "Law of God"

I agree the intent and the true teaching of the Law is love, but to say the Law is gone and then say "I love" is making our own version of what love is and not seeking His version of LOVE:


1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."


1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”

Yes if we are in the Law we are judged by it, but I am dead to the Law and alive to Christ. I am justified by faith apart from the Law. Paul is not saying keep the Law harder! He is saying, Christ is the fulfillment of the Law for those who believe. And then if we don’t, well then we will be judged by the Law. If we are alive to the Law and it is our wife, we are not alive to Christ, who is our freedom. We don’t establish the Law by trying to keep it. We establish it understanding Christ kept it. And now we are called to live with me another and this the fulfillment of the entire Law, but until we embrace His love and freedom, we are not empowered to fulfill the law of love. We love because He loved us first. And our freedom is given to serve one another. Even the idea I must keep the Law to be righteous before Christ is selfish. It is self absorbed, self focused, fear induced, and it has forgotten the freedom Christ paid for.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
I think since the Messiah is the one who did so much for us that we should listen to Him. Your post sounds real nice, but there is so much scripture which says differently. I have posted them before and you have chosen to not consider them. Maybe my post was too long so this time I will only post one to keep it short.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (Mans) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Messiah created the Way, laid down His Life to erase my past sins, and showed us how to "walk" the Path through His Life.

All we have to do is Love Him, Trust Him enough to "walk" in the "Good Works" that He created so long ago for us to walk in as did Abraham, Caleb, Zechariahs and so many more.

I think it is an error to believe the teaching that The Word which became Flesh created this path, cleared the way for us with His own Blood, and now is walking this path for us so we don't have to. It is a popular religious doctrine, I'm sure it fill the pews, but the scriptures don't agree.

He has done His Part, now we have our part. To believe in Him enough to do as He says.
I do walk in good works, so what issue do you have with me? Is it because I say I am free to choose? Paul said the same thing, that all things are lawful, but are not all profitable. I joyfully follow God.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
Amen to this simple, easy to understand truth that gets put into the proverbial "tar pit" by religionists and their working for law keeping false dogma!
John 7:18 He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

dcon says;

BLAH BLAH BLAH more working for pseudo salvation.....My bible teaches salvation is a present CURRENT possession.....

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy HAS HE SAVED US <--PAST TENSE

YES..JESUS did become SIN for us....<--Only a deceiver would reject this truth as well....

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

JESUS was BORN of a WOMAN, BORN UNDER THE LAW and “was CURSED” when he hung on a TREE....<--Only deceivers would reject the word of God which states as much....

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "

FOLKS any and all who deny the above truths have proven they are not of GOD....DO NOT BELIEVE POST 59510..HE DENIES these truths and supplants them with HALF truths and deceit just like the garden when the serpent removed and then added his own words to the bible.......

Seohce

...”JESUS was BORN of a WOMAN, BORN UNDER THE LAW and “was CURSED” when he hung on a TREE....<--Only deceivers would reject the word of God which states as much....”

THIS IS A CLEAR DECLARATION BY DCON THAT JESUS WAS “CURSED”.

I DECLARE THAT OUR LORD JESUS IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, PURE, HOLY AND UNDEFILED. HE IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE AND THE WORD THAT BECAME FLESH.

SINCE WHEN HAS THE GOSPEL CHANGED? WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT JESUS “WAS CURSED”?


... THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH “JESUS IS LORD” …...AND YOU WILL BE SAVED. (rom 10:9)

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?” Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is THE SAME yesterday and today and forever.(heb 13:5-8)

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Isaiah 5:20-24 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for THEY HAVE REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY and SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.

WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL JESUS “CURSED".

YOU HAVE TO GIVE ACCOUNT FOR THE FF;
I
FOR REJECTING THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY
FOR HAVING SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL
FOR CALLING JESUS “CURSED".

1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:36-37 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
I do walk in good works, so what issue do you have with me? Is it because I say I am free to choose? Paul said the same thing, that all things are lawful, but are not all profitable. I joyfully follow God.
I know that reply was to Studyman, but I want to say something if I may.

I dont doubt that you seek right works, but my issue is with many fighting against His Commands, if they are written on our heart how is it possible for someone to speak against them or call anyone who promotes them "lawyer, pharisee, justifed by works, fallen from greace etc?" Now I am not saying you do this but it is very common and I beleive a problem with modern teaching.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]



All, are "all things lawful?"

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 10:23, “All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up."

can you tell me how all things are lawful? is Hitlers murder of millions lawful? and no those in Messiah are not now able to sin and it;s ok. If you believe all thigns are Lawful explain to me how any sin/breaking of the Law is Lawful please.


I beleive no all thigns are not lawful

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matt 13:41-43, "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Yes if we are in the Law we are judged by it, but I am dead to the Law and alive to Christ. I am justified by faith apart from the Law. Paul is not saying keep the Law harder! He is saying, Christ is the fulfillment of the Law for those who believe. And then if we don’t, well then we will be judged by the Law. If we are alive to the Law and it is our wife, we are not alive to Christ, who is our freedom. We don’t establish the Law by trying to keep it. We establish it understanding Christ kept it. And now we are called to live with me another and this the fulfillment of the entire Law, but until we embrace His love and freedom, we are not empowered to fulfill the law of love. We love because He loved us first. And our freedom is given to serve one another. Even the idea I must keep the Law to be righteous before Christ is selfish. It is self absorbed, self focused, fear induced, and it has forgotten the freedom Christ paid for.
Sorry auto-correct, live with me = love one another*