Not By Works
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God works all things for good. Paul said all things all lawful, not me. I suppose you can debate with him in Heaven 
Paul also said the entire law is fulfilled by loving one another. Do you also disagree with that?
Paul also said the entire law is fulfilled by loving one another. Do you also disagree with that?
Here is the law. It is broken down by sections. Look it up and see.
List of the 613 laws in the Torah
http://www.gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html
Discussion about the 613 laws in the Torah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments
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In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree.
James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.
James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.
The law is from God. It is part of the Torah. Are you saying the Torah has no meaning? It is the foundation for the rest of the scripture. Breaking the law is sin. Paul said he needed the law to know what sin is. Jesus also said the law will last until heaven and earth disappear. Live with it.
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God works all things for good. Paul said all things all lawful, not me. I suppose you can debate with him in Heaven
Paul also said the entire law is fulfilled by loving one another. Do you also disagree with that?
Paul also said the entire law is fulfilled by loving one another. Do you also disagree with that?
I believe the Law's intent is shown in the 2 greatest Commandments:
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 22:37-40, “Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
when we look at what Paul says about "fulfilling the Law" I think we need to actually look at what he said, one it seems to be only focused on Yahshua's 2nd greatest Commandment because Paul mentions nothing about loving the Creator, and concerning love to our neighbor this:
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and (#G5100 & #G2087) any other commandments are summed up (#G346) in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."[/FONT]
“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]any”is word #G5100 - tis: a certain one, someone, anyone, Original Word: τις, τι, Part of Speech: Indefinite Pronoun, Transliteration: tis, Phonetic Spelling: (tis), Short Definition: any one, some one, Definition: any one, some one, a certain one or thing.[/FONT]
“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]other” is word #G2087 – heteros 1) the other, another, other, 1 to number,1a1) to number as opposed to some former person or thing,1a2) the other of two,1b) to quality,1b1) another: i.e. one not of the same nature, form, class, kind, different[/FONT]
“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]summed up” is word #G346 – anakephalaioó: to sum up, gather up, Original Word: ἀνακεφαλαιόω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: anakephalaioó, Phonetic Spelling: (an-ak-ef-al-ah'-ee-om-ahee), Short Definition: I sum up, summarize, recapitulate, gather up in one, Definition: I sum up, summarize, recapitulate, gather up in one
Paul LITERALLY listed Commandments from the "OT"[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] and said "[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and (#G5100 & #G2087) any other commandments are summed up (#G346) in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself.[/FONT]"
thus to go "just love" can be true, if it is according to Yah;s standard of what love is, if it is devoid of Yah's standard then I say it is false.
bottom line for me is I agree in Paul's statement if we dont over generalize, as he says "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]love your neighbor as yourself[/FONT][/FONT]" sums this up, so I would agree with this statement as it is written by not devoind of the surrounding description.
Also I dont see how me asking you to explain something you beleive "all things are lawful" is that hard that you can not do it. I respect you we have talked before but honestly I find you dont take the time to back anything up that you are questioned on, like when we talked about Henrews 4, I spent more than an hour posting a reply trying to touch on everything and you didnt really look at what I had said. Not the end of the world but I wonted to let you know, that me asking a single question should not be iMO so easily dismissed if we are having an honest and fair discussion
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Apparently you don't agree with these scriptures I posted. Or you think your understanding of this one sentence from Paul wipes out the rest of the Bible.
I'm just saying since it was Jesus that saved us, maybe we should listen to ALL His instructions and not just those which allow us our version of "freedom".
A perfect example of this is the scripture you use to support your freedom.
Paul just got through saying.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Shouldn't we consider this verse or the implications of it?
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
We are free from death if we are Christ's, we are free from deception if we are Christ's. But I don't find anywhere in the Bible where we are free from His Word's which last forever.
I don't have a problem with you, I just see that your religion and the teaching of the Word which became Flesh are different.
I just wanted to point this out in case you didn't see it, or for others who may be reading to consider.
I'm just saying since it was Jesus that saved us, maybe we should listen to ALL His instructions and not just those which allow us our version of "freedom".
A perfect example of this is the scripture you use to support your freedom.
Paul just got through saying.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Shouldn't we consider this verse or the implications of it?
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
We are free from death if we are Christ's, we are free from deception if we are Christ's. But I don't find anywhere in the Bible where we are free from His Word's which last forever.
I don't have a problem with you, I just see that your religion and the teaching of the Word which became Flesh are different.
I just wanted to point this out in case you didn't see it, or for others who may be reading to consider.
If we are justified by faith - in other words saved by faith - then it CANNOT be of works!
What this means is that works neither save us NOR keep us saved.
The fact that good works are CONSEQUENT to faith does not change this...
This is NOT a thread about whether a Christian should do good works - this is not in dispute.
This thread is however about what SAVES one - and it is NOT works....
What this means is that works neither save us NOR keep us saved.
The fact that good works are CONSEQUENT to faith does not change this...
This is NOT a thread about whether a Christian should do good works - this is not in dispute.
This thread is however about what SAVES one - and it is NOT works....
The Law does have meaning! When sinners failed to keep it, it showed us we need Christ. Now that I have found a greater glory in Him why would I go back under bondage? No one in the history of the world has been Justified by it. I’ll stick to following Christ and learning to love like He does with my freedom.
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Yes, but when we post a Scripture without context we can make it say anything we want.
Someone could say the commands here are baptizing in the Name of the Son, Father, and Holy Spirit only and not Jesus. Or someone could say we have to eat people because Christ said we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. We can make Scripture say a lot of weird things if we don’t account for the context. This particular context is Jesus saying to believe on Him and love one another. Those were His commands in John. You can tell because He says this is My command to you love one another as I have loved you.
Someone could say the commands here are baptizing in the Name of the Son, Father, and Holy Spirit only and not Jesus. Or someone could say we have to eat people because Christ said we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. We can make Scripture say a lot of weird things if we don’t account for the context. This particular context is Jesus saying to believe on Him and love one another. Those were His commands in John. You can tell because He says this is My command to you love one another as I have loved you.
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I agree context is key. and considering the entire word.
This is clear "the old command from the beginning":
1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”
Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."
Mat 22:37-40, “Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
seeking to be obedient through the priesthoof of Yahshua.
This is clear "the old command from the beginning":
1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”
Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."
Mat 22:37-40, “Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
seeking to be obedient through the priesthoof of Yahshua.
Wiggle wiggle wiggle. You answered around the question. The simple statement is faith without works is dead. Therefore works is required for faith. Faith saves but works is required for faith. They are bound together strongly. It's obvious you never took a class in logic. I took one and as an electronics tech I worked with digital electronics which is logic circuits. They translate into English easily. I automatically put things in logical order most of the time. It becomes obvious it goes right over your head.