Do genuine ex-Christians exist? (Discussion Topic)

[Didymous]

Hello,

It has been a while since I've been on this site. Just cleaning up my bookmarks and thought I'd revisit to ask a simple question and see what responses we get.

The question is simple. Do ex-Christians exist? Are there people out there who once had genuine faith in Jesus Christ, but now no longer believe in God? It's an interesting question because different denominations have different starting points on this. Pentecostals will openly admit that such people exist, and have lost their salvation as a result of their denunciation. More Calvinist leaning denominations, like the Baptists, will staunchly deny that such people exist. There's simply no room for genuine exChristians in Calvinist theology.

But before we begin, I guess we need to clarify what it means to be a genuine Christian. For purposes of this discussion, and feel free to comment if you disagree, a genuine Christian is defined as an individual who acknowledged that they have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. They believe in Jesus Christ and what is written in the Bible. They believe Jesus is God, and He died on the cross for us, so that through Him we can be saved from our sin. They profess Jesus as Lord and invite the Holy Spirit to dwell inside them to guide them through life. They develop a repentant heart, where they turn from former sin and feel convicted when commit sin. They love the Lord and are genuine in their faith. This is a true believer.

So is it possible, for a true believer, as defined above, to one day struggle with their faith, for whatever reasons, and eventually lose their faith entirely as a result of that struggle, to the point where they no longer believe God exists?

According to those who claim to be genuine ex-Christians, the answer is an easy yes. A quick search online and you will find several communities of people proclaiming to be just that. Their stories are varied. Some were former missionaries or pastors. Others lost their faith while attending Christian college. Some were pastors kids. They share their testimony about how they came to Christ and their Christian life, testimonies that resemble one of any true believer. But then for one reason or another, a crisis of faith arose in their life, and it ended with them no longer believing.

So why this long-winded topic? Well, while several Christians completely acknowledge the existence of these people, and use them as evidence of how salvation can be lost, there is a large group of Christians who, despite any evidence ex-Christians try to give to prove that they were once genuine, refuse to believe that ex-Christians exist. They're response is quite simple: A true believer would never lose their faith, thus, these people must have never been true believers.

It's a response that's viewed as insulting to the ex-Christian community, as they feel it dismisses them without even hearing them out. Simply by no longer believing now, whatever they believed or experienced before must not have been genuine. End of discussion....

...Or is it? That's what I want to do here. How exactly does the latter dismiss the former? If they themselves were being genuine in their faith at the time, how can that be considered ingenuine? And if you truly believe they were never saved, then does that mean when I prayed as a young child for Jesus to come into my heart, that God said no?

Woops, didn't mean to make it personal. But it is personal. I exist. Living proof that it is very possible to live your life as a genuine follower of Jesus Christ but eventually come to a place where I lost that faith. If you don't agree with that, then let's discuss this, and try to get to the bottom of this tricky topic.

1 John 2:19 makes it clear for me. So, there's really nothing to discuss.

 

[stonesoffire]

Jesus said you must be born from above. The new birth is what creates His own.

 

[Johnny_B]

My friend can you show me where a person prayed the sinners pray in the Bible?

The Bible says that if a person is in Chirst it is Christ that will keep them holy, blameless and above repoach before Him.

Colossians 1:21-23“And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.”

The proof of that faith is you continuing in the faith for life, you will or can you have times of unbelief? Of course, and since you are not died yet no one not even yourself knows the end of you story, only God know how that will end.

Here's what John says along the same lines as Paul, about those that have claimed some type of faith or being involved with believers.

I John 2:19 “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”

People can say whatever they want, it is God's Word that is the final authority in the matter, if Christ has reconciled you in His flesh (body) He will keep you. The mark of a true believer is that they are reconciled by Chirst and they will continue in the faith until He takes them home or they never where believers.

 

[Didymous]

1 John 2:19 makes it clear for me. So, there's really nothing to discuss.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.". I don't think anyone needs to try and interpret this. I believe it's very clear what John was saying. They left and didn't come back, because they weren't saved and they weren't Christians.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It's just certain things became cognizant in my life that caused my perspective to change on things like God's goodness, the validity of Scripture, etc., and I struggled for many years to keep my faith, ultimately losing that battle.

Sounds like your foundation wasn't very good.

 

[Grandpa]

Hello,

The question is simple. Do ex-Christians exist?

No.

If a person knows something they cannot un-know it.

You are just playing what-if games.


What if you stop believing in gravity? Will gravity stop holding you down?

What if you stop believing in time? Will you stop growing old?


There are facts that if you stop believing in them they don't make them un-true. They just make the un-believer foolish.

 

[mailmandan]

Ex "nominal" (in name only) Christians do exist, but there are no genuine ex-Christians.
There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians.
There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

 

[PennEd]

Hello,

It has been a while since I've been on this site. Just cleaning up my bookmarks and thought I'd revisit to ask a simple question and see what responses we get.

The question is simple. Do ex-Christians exist? Are there people out there who once had genuine faith in Jesus Christ, but now no longer believe in God? It's an interesting question because different denominations have different starting points on this. Pentecostals will openly admit that such people exist, and have lost their salvation as a result of their denunciation. More Calvinist leaning denominations, like the Baptists, will staunchly deny that such people exist. There's simply no room for genuine exChristians in Calvinist theology.

But before we begin, I guess we need to clarify what it means to be a genuine Christian. For purposes of this discussion, and feel free to comment if you disagree, a genuine Christian is defined as an individual who acknowledged that they have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. They believe in Jesus Christ and what is written in the Bible. They believe Jesus is God, and He died on the cross for us, so that through Him we can be saved from our sin. They profess Jesus as Lord and invite the Holy Spirit to dwell inside them to guide them through life. They develop a repentant heart, where they turn from former sin and feel convicted when commit sin. They love the Lord and are genuine in their faith. This is a true believer.

So is it possible, for a true believer, as defined above, to one day struggle with their faith, for whatever reasons, and eventually lose their faith entirely as a result of that struggle, to the point where they no longer believe God exists?

According to those who claim to be genuine ex-Christians, the answer is an easy yes. A quick search online and you will find several communities of people proclaiming to be just that. Their stories are varied. Some were former missionaries or pastors. Others lost their faith while attending Christian college. Some were pastors kids. They share their testimony about how they came to Christ and their Christian life, testimonies that resemble one of any true believer. But then for one reason or another, a crisis of faith arose in their life, and it ended with them no longer believing.

So why this long-winded topic? Well, while several Christians completely acknowledge the existence of these people, and use them as evidence of how salvation can be lost, there is a large group of Christians who, despite any evidence ex-Christians try to give to prove that they were once genuine, refuse to believe that ex-Christians exist. They're response is quite simple: A true believer would never lose their faith, thus, these people must have never been true believers.

It's a response that's viewed as insulting to the ex-Christian community, as they feel it dismisses them without even hearing them out. Simply by no longer believing now, whatever they believed or experienced before must not have been genuine. End of discussion....

...Or is it? That's what I want to do here. How exactly does the latter dismiss the former? If they themselves were being genuine in their faith at the time, how can that be considered ingenuine? And if you truly believe they were never saved, then does that mean when I prayed as a young child for Jesus to come into my heart, that God said no?

Woops, didn't mean to make it personal. But it is personal. I exist. Living proof that it is very possible to live your life as a genuine follower of Jesus Christ but eventually come to a place where I lost that faith. If you don't agree with that, then let's discuss this, and try to get to the bottom of this tricky topic.

As defined above? You ALMOST have the correct definition, but omit the the only thing that matters.

HAVE YOU BEEN BORN AGAIN!!

YOU don't make your heart repent. God gives His born again child a NEW heart.

I'm sure you know very well that Scripture says that some went out proclaiming to be Christian, but the fact that they no longer believe proves they NEVER were.

If you no longer believe, then why even come here?

It seems to me you either want to cause trouble. Or, MORE HOPEFULLY, you ARE born again, and the Lord is drawing you back.

 

[Zmouth]

I think the ex-Christian argument is that their hope in the faith was based upon false and deceptive misrepresentations and therefore they are entitled to the recession of their oath to the covenant including any past or future vow obligations. However, unless the ex-Christian can verify that they were persuaded by documentation which is was voidable at the time of inception then good luck with getting it rescinded, for free anyways.

 

[Ezekiel8]

I have encountered such groups also. I don't think they were actual Christians. I think they genuinely think that they were though. I think like you note here a common theme with them is they come from a religious background, their family was Christian, they went to church, etc. So because of this they consider themselves Christian (or to say at one point they considered themselves Christian.) Then the other common thing with all of them is they are all young. So I don't think they were really old enough to have had a very genuine understanding of Christianity. I think they're at a point where they are young and so they're trying to formulate their identity.

 

[Ralph-]

Sounds like your foundation wasn't very good.

His soil wasn't right. But that doesn't mean he didn't really believe.

Jesus says there are those who believe, but because their soil is rocky (not fit for sustaining lasting growth) they fall away when trials and tribulations come along.

The church has been taught by Calvinism to think of faith in an either/or kind of way instead of how the Bible presents it--in a strong vs. weak way.

Weak believers (weak by virtue of what kind of soil their heart is composed of) can be more easily led back into unbelief. The word can't get deeply rooted in their rocky soiled hearts to weather the storms of life and they can fall away. Only those with fourth type of soil have the word deeply rooted in them where it can not be uprooted by the distractions and sufferings of this life. Persevering to the end in believing is indeed a condition for salvation and only people with hearts of good soil can do that.

 

[mailmandan]

I have encountered such groups also. I don't think they were actual Christians. I think they genuinely think that they were though. I think like you note here a common theme with them is they come from a religious background, their family was Christian, they went to church, etc. So because of this they consider themselves Christian (or to say at one point they considered themselves Christian.)

Exactly. I've had discussions with such individuals on various Christian forums who claimed to have once been a Christian but no longer are and every time I ask them what was it that constituted they were Christians to begin with/what exactly did they believe that caused them to become a Christian but now no longer believe, yet I NEVER got a satisfactory answer from any of them.

 

[Ralph-]

No.

If a person knows something they cannot un-know it.

What does that have to do with no longer believing/trusting in what you can not now un-know?

The condition for salvation is that you believe/trust in what you know about Christ. So, not being able to un-know the story of Christ is hardly a reason why you can't become unsaved.

What if you stop believing in gravity? Will gravity stop holding you down?

What if you stop believing in time? Will you stop growing old?


There are facts that if you stop believing in them they don't make them un-true. They just make the un-believer foolish.

The force of gravity is not applied to me on the basis of whether or not I believe in it. And the effects of aging are not conditioned on me believing in it. This makes your analogy useless and inapplicable.

 

[Depleted]

Hello,

It has been a while since I've been on this site. Just cleaning up my bookmarks and thought I'd revisit to ask a simple question and see what responses we get.

The question is simple. Do ex-Christians exist? Are there people out there who once had genuine faith in Jesus Christ, but now no longer believe in God? It's an interesting question because different denominations have different starting points on this. Pentecostals will openly admit that such people exist, and have lost their salvation as a result of their denunciation. More Calvinist leaning denominations, like the Baptists, will staunchly deny that such people exist. There's simply no room for genuine exChristians in Calvinist theology.

But before we begin, I guess we need to clarify what it means to be a genuine Christian. For purposes of this discussion, and feel free to comment if you disagree, a genuine Christian is defined as an individual who acknowledged that they have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. They believe in Jesus Christ and what is written in the Bible. They believe Jesus is God, and He died on the cross for us, so that through Him we can be saved from our sin. They profess Jesus as Lord and invite the Holy Spirit to dwell inside them to guide them through life. They develop a repentant heart, where they turn from former sin and feel convicted when commit sin. They love the Lord and are genuine in their faith. This is a true believer.

So is it possible, for a true believer, as defined above, to one day struggle with their faith, for whatever reasons, and eventually lose their faith entirely as a result of that struggle, to the point where they no longer believe God exists?

According to those who claim to be genuine ex-Christians, the answer is an easy yes. A quick search online and you will find several communities of people proclaiming to be just that. Their stories are varied. Some were former missionaries or pastors. Others lost their faith while attending Christian college. Some were pastors kids. They share their testimony about how they came to Christ and their Christian life, testimonies that resemble one of any true believer. But then for one reason or another, a crisis of faith arose in their life, and it ended with them no longer believing.

So why this long-winded topic? Well, while several Christians completely acknowledge the existence of these people, and use them as evidence of how salvation can be lost, there is a large group of Christians who, despite any evidence ex-Christians try to give to prove that they were once genuine, refuse to believe that ex-Christians exist. They're response is quite simple: A true believer would never lose their faith, thus, these people must have never been true believers.

It's a response that's viewed as insulting to the ex-Christian community, as they feel it dismisses them without even hearing them out. Simply by no longer believing now, whatever they believed or experienced before must not have been genuine. End of discussion....

...Or is it? That's what I want to do here. How exactly does the latter dismiss the former? If they themselves were being genuine in their faith at the time, how can that be considered ingenuine? And if you truly believe they were never saved, then does that mean when I prayed as a young child for Jesus to come into my heart, that God said no?

Woops, didn't mean to make it personal. But it is personal. I exist. Living proof that it is very possible to live your life as a genuine follower of Jesus Christ but eventually come to a place where I lost that faith. If you don't agree with that, then let's discuss this, and try to get to the bottom of this tricky topic.

First, dealing with an error in your thought process. "Baptists" have divided so often that you cannot say they are Calvinists. You can't even call them all Christians. They cross the spectrum completely, depending on sub-denomination, just like Lutherans and Presbyterians. The only thing all Baptists have in common is water baptism.

Second, your definition of "genuine Christian" is flawed. Your honus is all on what the person believes. The real honus is on God's will.

John 6:[FONT=&quot]35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”[/FONT]

God's will is that Jesus will lose none that his Father has given him.

I've known many many people who sure seemed like Christians, and then later I learned they weren't. Oddly enough, most of them think they still are, but gave up a few things along the way.

One couple gave up following the Lord to join the Catholic Church simply because it was easier than studying the Bible to figure out who God is.

Another couple gave up following the Lord, because good praise music (which usually is praising man, rather than the Lord), was easier that studying the Bible to find out who God really is.

And many of them come on this forum, because arguing over some aspect of the Bible, is easier than finding out who God really is and following him.

Here's the problem as I see it -- folks who think they're Christian, but aren't, tend to think the honus is on them. They're the ones who have to maintain, while the Lord sits around waiting for us to get our own acts together. Meanwhile, the real God knows our acts aren't together and never will be in this lifetime, but he gives us perseverance, faith, and everything else we need, as we need it... just as long as we realize he's doing the main effort in the relationship. His people are the needy. He is the supplier for those needs. And those needs are many.

 

[Depleted]

Well, I was hoping for an actual discussion. Where people, you know, actually share opinions and such rather than cast premature judgment. Also, I should note I am not trying to deconvert anyone, but I am trying to get people to acknowledge that ex-Christians do exist...so I guess I am guilty of that.

One person said what do I have to add to this conversation. Well, it's a very repetitive one for sure.

So basically, the same thing always happens when I try to prove that I was a genuine believer, no matter how I approach it:

1a. Mention the sinner's prayer as a starting point for my walk with Christ.

Response: "Just saying a prayer doesn't make you a genuine Christian, you need have a repentant heart and develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ"

1b. Don't mention the sinner's prayer, but instead mention how I repented of my sin and explain my faith in Christ.

Response: "Oh see, you never actually entered into a relationship with Christ or invited Christ into your life. You were simply just believing."

2a. Emphasize the external evidences of how I was a believer (church, love of worship, desire to serve God).

Response: "These are just works. It takes faith to be a true believer!"

2b. Emphasize the internal evidences of how I was a believer (love for God, prayer life, spirit of conviction).

Response: "All talk. Where are the fruits of your faith! I'm not seeing anything tangible that would make me think you were ever genuine."

Sigh.....No matter what I say or how I try to say it, they simply cannot accept that I was a genuine believer in Christ. I try to clarify the best I can, but the only response I usually get is one random verse thrown at me with the individual saying, "sorry, but I trust the word of God over you."

The irony there is that it's not the word of God that you are trusting, it's your interpretation of the word of God that you are trusting. Big difference there. We already covered how certain Christians believe that genuine ex-Christians can exist. So just be mindful that it is your personal interpretation of Scripture that you are choosing to side with.

So where does that leave the discussion. Well, my questions at the end of my first post seem like a good place to start. Let's talk about this. If anyone wants to, that is.

Just so we're clear that you aren't pulling this off at all, let me translate this for you.

"You dopehead! I wasn't calling anyone a dopehead. I'm innocent! Now let's get back to the subject, you dopehead!"

 

[Ralph-]

If you no longer believe, then why even come here?

It seems to me you either want to cause trouble.

Jesus talks about this.

He says the person who causes a 'little one who believes in me' to fall and go to the eternal fire will be severely punished.

I wonder if someone is responsible for causing nogard to stumble so as to no longer believe and eventually go to the eternal fire? They have some reckoning with Jesus to do when He returns.

Or, MORE HOPEFULLY, you ARE born again, and the Lord is drawing you back.

The Bible says he can not come back.

When God turns him over to his unbelief once and for all, it's over. He can't come back. Even if he wants to come back.....with tears.

But God is long suffering. Nobody knows when God has given up on the ex-believer. So I do not want to discourage the ex-believer from coming back. They should know, though, there is a point where he/she will not be allowed to come back.

 

[LPT]

First, dealing with an error in your thought process. "Baptists" have divided so often that you cannot say they are Calvinists. You can't even call them all Christians. They cross the spectrum completely, depending on sub-denomination, just like Lutherans and Presbyterians. The only thing all Baptists have in common is water baptism.

Second, your definition of "genuine Christian" is flawed. Your honus is all on what the person believes. The real honus is on God's will.

John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

God's will is that Jesus will lose none that his Father has given him.

I've known many many people who sure seemed like Christians, and then later I learned they weren't. Oddly enough, most of them think they still are, but gave up a few things along the way.

One couple gave up following the Lord to join the Catholic Church simply because it was easier than studying the Bible to figure out who God is.

Another couple gave up following the Lord, because good praise music (which usually is praising man, rather than the Lord), was easier that studying the Bible to find out who God really is.

And many of them come on this forum, because arguing over some aspect of the Bible, is easier than finding out who God really is and following him.

Here's the problem as I see it -- folks who think they're Christian, but aren't, tend to think the honus is on them. They're the ones who have to maintain, while the Lord sits around waiting for us to get our own acts together. Meanwhile, the real God knows our acts aren't together and never will be in this lifetime, but he gives us perseverance, faith, and everything else we need, as we need it... just as long as we realize he's doing the main effort in the relationship. His people are the needy. He is the supplier for those needs. And those needs are many.

Matt 7:5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye

 

[Ralph-]

"They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.". I don't think anyone needs to try and interpret this. I believe it's very clear what John was saying. They left and didn't come back, because they weren't saved and they weren't Christians.

Vs. 24 in that same chapter (1 John 2) doesn't allow this interpretation.

 

[NayborBear]

Well, I was hoping for an actual discussion. Where people, you know, actually share opinions and such rather than cast premature judgment. Also, I should note I am not trying to deconvert anyone, but I am trying to get people to acknowledge that ex-Christians do exist...so I guess I am guilty of that.

One person said what do I have to add to this conversation. Well, it's a very repetitive one for sure.

So basically, the same thing always happens when I try to prove that I was a genuine believer, no matter how I approach it:

1a. Mention the sinner's prayer as a starting point for my walk with Christ.

Response: "Just saying a prayer doesn't make you a genuine Christian, you need have a repentant heart and develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ"

1b. Don't mention the sinner's prayer, but instead mention how I repented of my sin and explain my faith in Christ.

Response: "Oh see, you never actually entered into a relationship with Christ or invited Christ into your life. You were simply just believing."

2a. Emphasize the external evidences of how I was a believer (church, love of worship, desire to serve God).

Response: "These are just works. It takes faith to be a true believer!"

2b. Emphasize the internal evidences of how I was a believer (love for God, prayer life, spirit of conviction).

Response: "All talk. Where are the fruits of your faith! I'm not seeing anything tangible that would make me think you were ever genuine."

Sigh.....No matter what I say or how I try to say it, they simply cannot accept that I was a genuine believer in Christ. I try to clarify the best I can, but the only response I usually get is one random verse thrown at me with the individual saying, "sorry, but I trust the word of God over you."

The irony there is that it's not the word of God that you are trusting, it's your interpretation of the word of God that you are trusting. Big difference there. We already covered how certain Christians believe that genuine ex-Christians can exist. So just be mindful that it is your personal interpretation of Scripture that you are choosing to side with.

So where does that leave the discussion. Well, my questions at the end of my first post seem like a good place to start. Let's talk about this. If anyone wants to, that is.

To answer your original query as to there being "such a critter" as an EX-Christian? My answer is unequivocally...NO! Can there, at any time in one's "walk in flesh", during this earth/heaven age, become, and ex-Christian?....Again....No! Once one has confessed with their mouth their belief that Jesus Christ is the only begotten "Son" of God? And, being baptized? The "seed", so to speak, has been planted!

Having said this? Can this "seed" go dormant, and not produce fruit, and/or "efforts" attributable towards righteousness? Much like Jesus' "parable of the talents", where the "servant", who was given 1 talent, dug a hole and buried it. And when "held to his accounting" of it, brought that 1 talent back? And, that 1 talent was taken from him, and given to another "servant?" It was at that time, that particular servant, became, an Ex-Christian! (So) Isn't it funny how many (so called) christians, bring one into "an accounting" of ones' "investings", on so many (a) myriad of, what each one (or "group/assembly of believers") "considers" to be creditable proof of (a) "productive yielding", to be considered "worthy" of, or (a) prerequisite for (some even refer this, to "discipleship training") (an) admission into said group, or assemblage of believers? Should this sound familiar to you original poster? Could be something you see, and they don't!

I don't know how many times I thought within my heart, as I was growing up in a "church of stone", hearing the samo samo, week after week, year after year: "Is that all, there is?" (Apparently) To some? It is! And for them? That's alright! There is a whole lot more to the "body of Christ", then that which is generally proffered in churches of stone. Tis frustrating, to be sure. Does this cause you to think of yourself as an ex-Christian? It certainly could! And, it certainly may look in "their" eyes, as you are! Good thing our Father in Heaven is not called you into an accounting, eh?

 

[Depleted]

You don't have to be completely neutral on a topic to have a discussion about it. I'm clearly not neutral as I identify as an ex-Christian, and I imagine you are not neutral either. That's what a discussion is for. Let's bring our opinions to the table. If you don't want to do that, that's fine, simply don't post in this topic. No one's forcing you.

What responses am I looking for out of this? Well, we can start extremely basic if we want. Here are some questions for Christians to respond to if they want.

1. Why is it not possible for a genuine believer to one day no longer believe? (This isn't asking if we can lose our salvation, but simply asking if a genuine believer can stop believing.) Share scripture if you'd like.

2. If someone believes their faith is genuine, as all Christians do, how exactly does it all become ingenuine the second they stop believing? If that person would have died before they stopped believing, would they have been a true Christian then?

3. If they were never saved, does that mean God rejected that person the entire time they thought they were saved? Once again, as a young boy of 10 years of age, I asked the Lord to come into my life, and I began my walk with Christ. Did God reject me as a young boy? Does that not contradict a boatload of Scripture?

That's very nice that you asked the Lord to come into your life at 10.

Any clue, even at 29, what that even means? Like, if you didn't ask him, would he have stayed away? Like would their have been a 1000 foot no-man's land around you where God himself could not pass that point? Does he do that for everyone unless they "ask him to come into my life?" In which case, given the vast majority of people in the world -- all 7.5 billion of us, have never asked God to "some into my life," does that mean God just stays away from earth all together so he doesn't bogart our buzz?

Where was he before you asked? Where was he after you asked? Did God get 2000 feet bigger because YOU asked? Is God suddenly not-so-much omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, because it all comes down to a ten year old asking?

There is this scene in Harry Potter and The Order of the Phoenix. They're in the room of Inquiry practicing their wand skills on a large wooden manikin. The manikin is very majestic, stern, and unflappable. It's also about two times bigger than anyone else in the room. And then one of the students uses the wand, and the manikin shrinks to about eight inches tall, pops up a single wheel underneath, darts away, and sounds quite a bit like a scared mouse near a cat.

It seems to me you think you manifested God as that majestic manikin, reduced him down to the shrinking little thing, and expect us to explain how that happened.

Simple. God's not a manikin! You created a fantasy, expected it to last, and then reality crept up on you. Now you think you're here to tell us you're magnificent discovery.

Yeah. Really. We've had the experience in our own varied ways, and yet, the Lord is bigger and more than what we expected, and made known his presence, on his terms, in no uncertain ways.

You keep creating definition of words that don't match the actual words, and are surprised anyone would notice. The only one not noticing is you though.

Nowhere but nowhere does the Bible say salvation is by asking God to come into our lives.

Nowhere but nowhere is your definition of Christianity accurate.

And, oddly enough, even your definition of Baptists isn't accurate.

But you think you got it right and then rejected it? Not really. You had an experience --a buzz -- and then the high went away.