Do genuine ex-Christians exist? (Discussion Topic)

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But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.
Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Matt 26:56

Yet some just simply drift away in a sea of delusion....

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves,....
2 Tim 3:1-2

on a cloud of imagination with no desire for the truth.



lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2 Tim 3:4
 
feelings come from our senses

the senses are in the body

the body has the flesh or sin nature in it.

you don't want that telling you something is genuine....

indeed and in the heart shall you find truth not in the flesh of the heart but deep sense inside you.

can people be led astray by false senses sure they can, that why it's important to study scripture and reason. though not everything is perfect in the bible because God didn't use perfect people to write it, but things are written as such so we can reason the truth. the bible gives choice, God is a God of choice, the other side of the coin doesn't want people to choose so it lies steals and cheats people out of their choices.
 
Projection is a very common attribute among us Christians.

We think that since we ourselves can not fall away that nobody else can fall away either. A big step in Christian maturity for me was to stop projecting my feelings and thinking and behavior onto others and let them be different.

Doing that takes a lot of venom out of how we respond to those who do not agree with us. Which is what it's really all about anyway, people. If you think the bread and butter of Christianity is that you believe you can not lose your salvation, and you'll fight tooth and nail the suggestion that you can lose it, then you don't know Christ the way you should. You still need to grow up into that which really counts--how you treat people. How we treat people shows we know Christ, not what doctrines we believe are true.
 
On the basis we have feelings then yes God created humans with feelings and emotions.

But that does not mean that our feelings are the only basis to live our lives.

I go by my heart that is all I need. even if one might say will what scripture teaches is as well basis to live by. How does a person believe that by feeling it in the heart quite simple for me at least.
 
I also believe there are a lot of confused Christians out there. I believe our faith is tested and if we have the ability to keep hanging on to Jesus/God.

My personal experience is a rotating door Christian meaning I was in and out of church because I didn't have a clear understanding of salvation. Was I an ex-Christian when I was out of church? I donknow. Was I saved or lost when I was out being confused? Only God has the answer to that question. But I can tell you this that it was God who gave me the answers that I was searching for and made my understanding of salvation clear.

I was under the mistaken idea that I had to clean up and be good enough before I could come to God and the harder I tried to get all cleaned up the more I understood I could never get clean enough and that kept me out of church because I didn't want to be a hypocrite and drag someone to hell with me.

So I'd muster up my resolve and determine this time I was going to be good enough and go back to church only to continue to fall flat on my face and sin again over and over and get discouraged and feel like a hypocrite and leave church again because I wasn't good enough.

I cried out to God one day and said Lord I'm never going to be good enough and you know what he did? He agreed with me and said you are right you will never be good enough, but Darlene that is why my Son died for you and when you ask for forgiveness and repent His blood covers your sins and I no longer see the mistakes and sins you have committed but I see the perfect life of my Son because His blood covers your sins.

I said it's that simple and the answer was yes it's that simple. I cried like a baby and was so grateful that God explained His gift of salvation to me that I don't want to ever be without Him and a relationship with Him again. Salvation is the greatest gift of love God can give to us because He has given Himself to us.

So I guess my answer would be there are confused Christians out there Real ones. Who are just searching for answers to their questions and my answer to them is that God has all the answers and will give them to you when you search for Him with all of your heart. He is waiting to help answer your questions too.
 
I also believe there are a lot of confused Christians out there. I believe our faith is tested and if we have the ability to keep hanging on to Jesus/God.

My personal experience is a rotating door Christian meaning I was in and out of church because I didn't have a clear understanding of salvation. Was I an ex-Christian when I was out of church? I donknow. Was I saved or lost when I was out being confused? Only God has the answer to that question. But I can tell you this that it was God who gave me the answers that I was searching for and made my understanding of salvation clear.

I was under the mistaken idea that I had to clean up and be good enough before I could come to God and the harder I tried to get all cleaned up the more I understood I could never get clean enough and that kept me out of church because I didn't want to be a hypocrite and drag someone to hell with me.

So I'd muster up my resolve and determine this time I was going to be good enough and go back to church only to continue to fall flat on my face and sin again over and over and get discouraged and feel like a hypocrite and leave church again because I wasn't good enough.

I cried out to God one day and said Lord I'm never going to be good enough and you know what he did? He agreed with me and said you are right you will never be good enough, but Darlene that is why my Son died for you and when you ask for forgiveness and repent His blood covers your sins and I no longer see the mistakes and sins you have committed but I see the perfect life of my Son because His blood covers your sins.

I said it's that simple and the answer was yes it's that simple. I cried like a baby and was so grateful that God explained His gift of salvation to me that I don't want to ever be without Him and a relationship with Him again. Salvation is the greatest gift of love God can give to us because He has given Himself to us.

So I guess my answer would be there are confused Christians out there Real ones. Who are just searching for answers to their questions and my answer to them is that God has all the answers and will give them to you when you search for Him with all of your heart. He is waiting to help answer your questions too.

PS: I was 56 years old when given this clarity on salvation. So I guess you could say I'm a relative newbie to understanding salvation.
 
I also believe there are a lot of confused Christians out there. I believe our faith is tested and if we have the ability to keep hanging on to Jesus/God.

My personal experience is a rotating door Christian meaning I was in and out of church because I didn't have a clear understanding of salvation. Was I an ex-Christian when I was out of church? I donknow. Was I saved or lost when I was out being confused? Only God has the answer to that question. But I can tell you this that it was God who gave me the answers that I was searching for and made my understanding of salvation clear.

I was under the mistaken idea that I had to clean up and be good enough before I could come to God and the harder I tried to get all cleaned up the more I understood I could never get clean enough and that kept me out of church because I didn't want to be a hypocrite and drag someone to hell with me.

So I'd muster up my resolve and determine this time I was going to be good enough and go back to church only to continue to fall flat on my face and sin again over and over and get discouraged and feel like a hypocrite and leave church again because I wasn't good enough.

I cried out to God one day and said Lord I'm never going to be good enough and you know what he did? He agreed with me and said you are right you will never be good enough, but Darlene that is why my Son died for you and when you ask for forgiveness and repent His blood covers your sins and I no longer see the mistakes and sins you have committed but I see the perfect life of my Son because His blood covers your sins.

I said it's that simple and the answer was yes it's that simple. I cried like a baby and was so grateful that God explained His gift of salvation to me that I don't want to ever be without Him and a relationship with Him again. Salvation is the greatest gift of love God can give to us because He has given Himself to us.

So I guess my answer would be there are confused Christians out there Real ones. Who are just searching for answers to their questions and my answer to them is that God has all the answers and will give them to you when you search for Him with all of your heart. He is waiting to help answer your questions too.

The question would be 'were you ever really a Christian before you finally came to understand just what it the gospel really is'

That is, when you 'believed' on and off and went through certain activities on and off, but didn't really know what it was you were tacitly saying you believed?
 
I go by my heart that is all I need. even if one might say will what scripture teaches is as well basis to live by. How does a person believe that by feeling it in the heart quite simple for me at least.

So will you answer my question.

So we live by feelings alone.

Also should we allow feelings to dictate our faith or perception of God.

There are a lot of brothers and sisters in Jesus whose feelings dictate their walk.

Have you ever come across believers whose feelings tell them that God does not actually love them?
 
The question would be 'were you ever really a Christian before you finally came to understand just what it the gospel really is'

That is, when you 'believed' on and off and went through certain activities on and off, but didn't really know what it was you were tacitly saying you believed?

I had been baptized as a child, been a church teacher and oh so much more....during the years. To those around me I was a real Christian.

Also, knew and respected a Pastor who led many to Jesus/God later cheated on his wife of many years and left the church... Was he a real Christian ever in his long life of Pastoring? We ask all these questions but only God knows the real answers and knows our hearts... We only look on the outside....
 
Projection is a very common attribute among us Christians.

We think that since we ourselves can not fall away that nobody else can fall away either. A big step in Christian maturity for me was to stop projecting my feelings and thinking and behavior onto others and let them be different.

Doing that takes a lot of venom out of how we respond to those who do not agree with us. Which is what it's really all about anyway, people. If you think the bread and butter of Christianity is that you believe you can not lose your salvation, and you'll fight tooth and nail the suggestion that you can lose it, then you don't know Christ the way you should. You still need to grow up into that which really counts--how you treat people. How we treat people shows we know Christ, not what doctrines we believe are true.

Yes how we treat people showing the love of Jesus in us.
Jesus focused in on this.
 
I cried out to God one day and said Lord I'm never going to be good enough and you know what he did? He agreed with me and said you are right you will never be good enough, but Darlene that is why my Son died for you and when you ask for forgiveness and repent His blood covers your sins and I no longer see the mistakes and sins you have committed but I see the perfect life of my Son because His blood covers your sins.
This is called 'being born again'.

I do tend to think that people who claim to have gone back to unbelief never got to this pivotal point in the matter of their sin and the Judgment to come. Only the OP knows if he came to this point or not.





I said it's that simple and the answer was yes it's that simple. I cried like a baby and was so grateful that God explained His gift of salvation to me that I don't want to ever be without Him and a relationship with Him again.
Kind of sounds like you're saying you will never forsake the free gift God has given you (thus, 'once saved always saved' is true). But Peter speaks about the person who forgets the day God forgave his sins, in 2 Peter 1:8-9. He languishes in fruitlessness and does not bring increase to the knowledge of the kingdom he has because he has forgotten what he received in Christ. It happens, people. That person is in danger of returning to unbelief in my opinion.




So I guess my answer would be there are confused Christians out there Real ones. Who are just searching for answers to their questions and my answer to them is that God has all the answers and will give them to you when you search for Him with all of your heart. He is waiting to help answer your questions too.
I don't sense that the OP is wanting answers. He's beyond that. He just wants us to know people can go back to unbelief.

Whatever his motive is for wanting to tell us this we do not know. But this is the way people tend to act when they realize in their own minds that they've been lied to. They want to air it out. And this should not be a problem for those who are sure a believer can not go back to unbelief. Which is funny since we see so much offense and anger on the part of those who believe you can not go back to unbelief. They should be the calmest and most understanding of all towards the OP. But as usual, they are not.
 
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So will you answer my question.

So we live by feelings alone.

Also should we allow feelings to dictate our faith or perception of God.

There are a lot of brothers and sisters in Jesus whose feelings dictate their walk.

Have you ever come across believers whose feelings tell them that God does not actually love them?

Yes feelings is what we have to determine faith, (Find All In The Heart).

Yes I have came across that, that is the anti Job view, Indeed satan is cunning and a lier, and gets people to believe in falseness out of their guilt or what ever it is that is contradicts the word. hopefully that same person will reason why they started feeling that way to begin with.
 
1. Why is it not possible for a genuine believer to one day no longer believe? (This isn't asking if we can lose our salvation, but simply asking if a genuine believer can stop believing.) Share scripture if you'd like.

2. If someone believes their faith is genuine, as all Christians do, how exactly does it all become ingenuine the second they stop believing? If that person would have died before they stopped believing, would they have been a true Christian then?

3. If they were never saved, does that mean God rejected that person the entire time they thought they were saved? Once again, as a young boy of 10 years of age, I asked the Lord to come into my life, and I began my walk with Christ. Did God reject me as a young boy? Does that not contradict a boatload of Scripture?

Actually, Jesus said it is possible. In the story of the sower in Luke 8, Jesus said:

11 This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God.12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.


Seems to me the person doing the sowing is of real importance in this story. If we recklessly sow the word of God where it won't take root (sowing our opinions, own understanding, our religious belief systems, etc.), there's no chance for the Truth of Jesus Christ to grow in that person's life. And if we give the word of God to someone and then don't disciple them (teach and be an example), the cares & troubles in this life will discourage them from keeping on the path of righteousness.

The sower is the one bringing the message of God. It's imperative that we introduce people to Jesus Christ, not preach our opinions or our religious belief systems. Only the truth, which is Christ Jesus, can root down and grow in a person spiritually. It's not head knowledge or theology or philosophy that gives us a foundation, the Lord keeps us in Himself. It is literally Christ in us.

Do I think there are genuine Christians who gave up and walked away? Sure, because I was one. Like the one sheep who got away, Jesus rescued me and brought me back to Himself (Truth). I had gotten disillusioned with religion, hypocrisy and modern day Pharisees condemning everyone. But Jesus proved He is faithful and showed me Himself. He said love God (trust & believe Him) and treat others the way you want to be treated. I’m learning more and more, day by day, because He’s the One conforming me into His image, as a Father who trains His child.

I wouldn’t think you have given up completely on the Lord because you’re still drawn to come here to be among Christians, you’re still pondering facets of God’s Truth, still seeking answers. If you had abandoned God altogether, you wouldn’t even be contemplating these thoughts you’re posting or bother coming here at all, ya know? But I'm glad you did.

No matter what, God knows the deepest recesses of your heart. He knows what you need and how to love you. I suggest if you really have questions, ask God Himself. He definitely knows how to answer you. And when God gives you an answer from His own Spirit to yours, it won’t be sown on thorny or rocky ground. It will be truth rooted into your heart so deeply that nobody and nothing in this world will ever be able to take away from you.

Take care, nogard. :)
 
Yes feelings is what we have to determine faith, (Find All In The Heart).

Yes I have came across that, that is the anti Job view, Indeed satan is cunning and a lier, and gets people to believe in falseness out of their guilt or what ever it is that is contradicts the word. hopefully that same person will reason why they started feeling that way to begin with.

nope, nope, no... Faith is of the word and spirit. your flesh and feelings are gonna lie faster than you know.

[FONT=&quot]Now faith is the [a]assurance of things [b]hoped for, the [c]conviction of things not seen.2 For by it the men of old [d]gained approval.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 By faith we understand that the [e]worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.[/FONT]
 
Yes feelings is what we have to determine faith, (Find All In The Heart).

Yes I have came across that, that is the anti Job view, Indeed satan is cunning and a lier, and gets people to believe in falseness out of their guilt or what ever it is that is contradicts the word. hopefully that same person will reason why they started feeling that way to begin with.

And I think that's the point I'm trying not to make.
Feelings do not determine faith.
Faith should dictate feelings

I would say though that not all people can reason or resolve based on faulty feelings
That's why we need genuine biblical based discipleship by mature believers.

A damaged broken heart will give rise to negative faulty feelings.
 
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I'm confused. I'm not trying to bait anybody. Nor am I actively involved in any ex-Christian community at the moment. Believe it or not, I'm just a normal human being who is trying to have a civilized discussion about this topic. I'm puzzled by the hostility.
Welcome back. Things have changed :(
 
The irony there is that it's not the word of God that you are trusting, it's your interpretation of the word of God that you are trusting.
No interpretation needed...

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.2Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[SUP]a[/SUP] putting them in chains of darkness[SUP]b[/SUP] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[SUP]c[/SUP] and despise authority.Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from[SUP]d[/SUP] the Lord. 12But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[SUP]e[/SUP] 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,[SUP]f[/SUP] who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.17These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[SUP]g[/SUP] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
 
I cried out to God one day and said Lord I'm never going to be good enough and you know what he did? He agreed with me and said you are right you will never be good enough, but Darlene that is why my Son died for you and when you ask for forgiveness and repent His blood covers your sins and I no longer see the mistakes and sins you have committed but I see the perfect life of my Son because His blood covers your sins.
I have this testimony too. I wish every Christian did because, at least from my point of view, this seems to be the key to persevering in believing and, thus, persevering in salvation. It seems the deeper and more profound your experience with God's grace is the more loving and gracious you will be towards others, and you will persevere in that grace.

But the parable of the unmerciful servant shows us that this experience is not a guarantee that you will be that kind of person who appreciates God's free gift to the very end. In the parable (Matthew 18:23-35) even though the servant was forgiven a debt he could not ever pay back he went out and mistreated those who owed him far less debts. The important note is the master of that servant revoked the forgiveness he had given him.
 
nope, nope, no... Faith is of the word and spirit. your flesh and feelings are gonna lie faster than you know.

Now faith is the [a]assurance of things [b]hoped for, the [c]conviction of things not seen.2 For by it the men of old [d]gained approval.
3 By faith we understand that the [e]worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Yup yup, and how do determine those things you have said assurance of things hoped for conviction you believe in your heart to feel period. are you purposely making things difficult I'm starting to question indeed.

i can use a pencil for evil or good, you flesh or feelings is no different. when you say flesh and feelings and say lies to you it's not you that is tempting yourself is of satan and then your talking about a worldly view.