so, why don't you tell us about these religious traditions you are always decrying and saying we are deceived by. what are they, how old are they, who made them?
Do We Have To Keep The Law?
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so, why don't you tell us about these religious traditions you are always decrying and saying we are deceived by. what are they, how old are they, who made them?
R
Ralph-
Guest
Sunday worship, Christmas, Easter.
Out of envy and hatred for the Jews, and to attract pagan converts to themselves, the early Catholic church changed worship away from Sabbath keeping and the Mosaic festival cycle and integrated pagan practices of the day into a new competing system of worship. Kind of like how the Samarian religion was a break away corrupt version of true Mosaic worship.
yes , in know this, but studydude is speaking of actual Scripture being mis-interpeted. that was the point.
and, since gentiles were never under the old covenant, they were never commanded to keep the festivals.
um, Christians do not " become Jewish ", we believe in Christ for salvation. I mean, if you find mold in your home, do you call a Levite priest and come clean it, and pronounce your house clean. that is what the Torah says.
Then the Jerusalem council's decision proves that Christian Jews were not under the law of Moses.
SO why does nobody follow the Instructions given at the Jerusalem council?
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 15:19-21,29 “19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles (new converts) who are turning to YHWH, 20, but that we write to them to abstain from the defilements of idols, and from whoring, and from what is strangled, and from blood. 21, For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath. 29, that you abstain from what is offered to idols, and blood, and what is strangled, and whoring. If you keep yourselves from these, you shall do well. Be strong!”
and what about lying, stealing, coveting etc?
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Because those were an incipient form of the Noahide laws that synagogues required gentile proselytes of the gate to keep if they wanted to worship in the synagogues. At that time that was the only place for gentiles to worship. It changed once they left the synagogues.
the Jewsih Encyclopedia for me is not a good source when it comes to Scriptual opinion, have some value for word meanings and historical things tho, JMO.
but they said it was guidance from the Spirit:
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]acts 15:28, "For it seemed good to the Set-apart Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessities:"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]15:29, "that you abstain from what is offered to idols, and blood, and what is strangled, and whoring. If you keep yourselves from these, you shall do well. Be strong!"
and it was for new converts:
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 15:19 “Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the gentiles who are turning to Yah,[/FONT]"
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I dont believe this was an be all end all, what about all the instructons from the Messiah that are for Gentiles?
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”[/FONT]
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The Gentiles were not "new" converts.
Gentiles had been coming to Christ for abut 15 years , starting with Cornelius, prior to the Jerusalem council.
This is another issue that I have explicitly dealt with - with you.
Grow up and learn a bit of Greek grammar - the present tense in Greek just means something is happening in the present, it gives NO indication of when the action started. In Greek, it is quite appropriate to talk about something in the present tense that has been happening since eternity past!
So your twisted theory about Gentile converts being babies in the faith, and therefore only given "limited instructions" by the conclusions of the Jerusalem council is quite false!
The Gentile believers they were referring, at least some of them anyway, were 15 year veterans of the faith.
What you are also missing is the fact that those instruction applied equally to believers who had come from Judaism!
you have explicitly dealt with me? LOL
sure.
so "turning to Yah/God" does not mean new convert?
and by explicitly you mean you cut part of my quote out and commented on the part you cut out?
ohh and Judaisim is extra-Biblical, it is not based in the OT it is based on the talmed this is what Yahshua exposed...
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 15:3-9, “But He answering, said to them, “Why do you also transgress the command of YHWH because of your tradition? For YHWH has commanded, saying, ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me has been dedicated, is certainly released from respecting his father or mother.’ So you have nullified the command of YHWH by your tradition."Hypocrites! Well did Isayah (29:13-14*) prophesy of you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."
yet you call His Law "judaisim" look up what Judaisim is...
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No it does not!
Greek grammar makes it perfectly clear that a word that is in the present tense only means that something is happening in the present. It makes no assumptions about when the process started.
This is not like the English present tense!
And, in the context of Acts chapter 15, it is very clear that Gentiles had been coming to Christ for 15 years prior, starting with Cornelius.
Acts chapter 15, makes it abundantly clear that NO believer, neither Jew nor Gentile, are to be subject to the Torah...
It has got nothing to with ethnicity nor how mature they were as believers...
you sure there arent gentiles constantly turning to Yah, every year.. every month.. or did they only seek him one year and then never gain after that...
seems to me there have been new converts every year for the past 2,000 years...
and even Jew are not to foolow the Creators commands?
Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."
Acts 13:14, “But passing through from Perge, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the congregation on the Sabbath day and sat down.”
Acts 13:27, “for those dwelling in Yerushalayim, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have filled them in having judged Him.”
Acts 13:44, “And on the next Sabbath almost all the city came together to hear the Word of YHWH."
Acts 15:21, “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath.”
Acts 16:13, “And on the Sabbath day we went outside the city by a river, where there used to be prayer. And having sat down we were speaking to the women who met there.”
Acts 17:2, “And according to his practice, Sha’ul went in unto them, and for three Sabbaths was reasoning with them from the Scriptures.”
Acts 18:4, “And he was reasoning in the congregation every Sabbath, and won over both Yehuḏim and Greeks.”
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”
mmm i dont beleive you
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Most people seem to be "free" from His righteous Commands, my Messiah freed me from the ways of the world and the adversary...
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 119:44-45, "That I might guard Your Law continually, Forever and ever; That I might walk in liberty, For I have sought Your orders;"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 1:22-25, “And become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. Because if anyone is a hearer of the Word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror, for he looks at himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what he was like. But he that looked into the perfect Law of liberty, and continues in it, not becoming a hearer that forgets, but a doer of work, this one shall be blessed in his doing.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:8-12, “If you truly accomplish the sovereign Law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you do well, but if you show partiality, you commit sin, being found guilty by the Law as transgressors. For whoever shall guard all the Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” (Exo 20:14) also said, “Do not murder.” (Exo 20:13) Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of Law. So speak and so do as those who are to be judged by the Law of liberty.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 119:44-45, "That I might guard Your Law continually, Forever and ever; That I might walk in liberty, For I have sought Your orders;"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 1:22-25, “And become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. Because if anyone is a hearer of the Word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror, for he looks at himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what he was like. But he that looked into the perfect Law of liberty, and continues in it, not becoming a hearer that forgets, but a doer of work, this one shall be blessed in his doing.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:8-12, “If you truly accomplish the sovereign Law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you do well, but if you show partiality, you commit sin, being found guilty by the Law as transgressors. For whoever shall guard all the Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” (Exo 20:14) also said, “Do not murder.” (Exo 20:13) Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of Law. So speak and so do as those who are to be judged by the Law of liberty.”[/FONT]
R
Ralph-
Guest
The point is, the law was given to the people of God, who were made up of both natural Jews and gentiles. And together they had one and the same law. The law applied to both Jew and gentiles who were in covenant with God. Everybody, Jew and gentile alike, who was in covenant with God was obligated to the law of Moses.
15The community is to have the same rules for you and for the foreigner residing among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the Lord: 16The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the foreigner residing among you.’ -Numbers 15:15
"The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”"-Exodus 12:49
Don't forget. The gentiles are grafted into the commonwealth of Israel, not the other way around. Together we compose the people of God to whom the law of Moses was given.
In order to understand the Word we must give credit to it being the Word of God, Jesus, Yeshua.
The first assembly of God's people began with Abraham and ultimately became the Theocratic Government of Israel with Moses, uksed by God, as its founder in His writings.
There was no denomination, it was the country supposedly directed by our Father.
There is no such thing as Judaism, or there was no such thing. All of this began with the slow dissolution of Israel and theinstituting of groups such as the Sadducee, the Pharisees and more.
Jesus came to set all straight and to teach Jews (the remainig of the twelve tribes) and dgentiles alike what worship is.
Since His first advent hundreds of sects have cropped up among Jews and Christians making the field rife with weeds, that is apostasy has abounded. This must be true, otherwise we would say Jesus founded one of these misguided denominationss, and He did not.
Do not say it is difficult to find these traditions of men, they began long before Christ. The say forest for the trees actually fits here. Concentrate on one tree at a time, and you will see all of the forest and not get lost in it.
The first assembly of God's people began with Abraham and ultimately became the Theocratic Government of Israel with Moses, uksed by God, as its founder in His writings.
There was no denomination, it was the country supposedly directed by our Father.
There is no such thing as Judaism, or there was no such thing. All of this began with the slow dissolution of Israel and theinstituting of groups such as the Sadducee, the Pharisees and more.
Jesus came to set all straight and to teach Jews (the remainig of the twelve tribes) and dgentiles alike what worship is.
Since His first advent hundreds of sects have cropped up among Jews and Christians making the field rife with weeds, that is apostasy has abounded. This must be true, otherwise we would say Jesus founded one of these misguided denominationss, and He did not.
Do not say it is difficult to find these traditions of men, they began long before Christ. The say forest for the trees actually fits here. Concentrate on one tree at a time, and you will see all of the forest and not get lost in it.
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
I have said nothing of what you assert here.
My exact point is that in Greek grammar a present tense verb means that an action can be going on continually from in the past until the present.
And that is the situation in this verse "19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God," Acts 15:19
The word translated "are turning" is this "ἐπιστρέφουσιν" and it is in the present active indicative.
The present tense in Greek tell one that an action is taking place currently, but not when the action began.
The action may have begun just a second before or years or centuries before.
This is a bit different to English where the simple present tense suggests a punctiliar action occurring in the present.
To suggest that the action started in time past requires an extra phrase to explain this.
In Acts, the first documented Gentile to turn to God was Cornelius (Acts 10).
This was about 15 years prior to the Jerusalem council documented in Acts 15.
All through that time Gentiles had been converting to Christianity....
So, for Shamah to assert that the Gentiles referred to in Acts 15:19 must have been NEW converts and therefore try to explain away the clear conclusion of the Jerusalem council that the Law was no longer binding on them by further asserting that that brief list of items mentioned in Acts 15:28-29 was just a kind of starter pack for new believers after which they would be required to follow the whole Law is just nonsensical.
The narrative of Acts 15 unequivocally demonstrates that the Law is NO LONGER BINDING on New covenant believers!
And so, yes it does mean that Gentiles were constantly turning to Christ all the time - and that was exactly the point I was making all along.......
Which circles right back around to my point that "the Jerusalem council's decision proves that Christian Jews were not under the law of Moses." In other words, if the Jerusalem council (the head of the church) ruled that gentiles were under no obligation to the law of Moses (which they did), then Jews weren't either per your reasoning.
Are you married, Ralph?
Wedding rings have a pagan origin. As do most wedding traditions such as the veil, throwing rice, carrying the bride over the threshold, etc.
Does your wife use makeup? Jewelry?
Better tell her to knock it off - eye shadow, lipstick, ear rings, etc. - all pagan.
Do you use the names of the months? Days of the week?
Most are named after pagan gods.
Do you have wind chimes?
Better ditch them - pagan.
Grave markers for the dead? Flowers on the grave?
Pull 'em out - pagan origins as well.
Do you play cards?
Yep - pagan origins.
Most coinage and paper money have pagan symbols on them.
Still use money?
Even church steeples have pagan origins.
Go to a church with a steeple?
Quite the conundrum, Ralphie.
