Do We Have To Keep The Law?

[JaumeJ]

You are going to have to make an effort to make sense.

The prayer continues "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Now the reference is God's will or, ur Father's will on earth as it is in heaven. We must begin attempting here......

I am save by grace. I know that only my Savior was perfect in the sight of God, but while I know to imitate Him and not other in this forum, I will do my best to be perfet until God is finished with the work He began (and continues to do) in me. I should hope this is true with al who believe "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

Are you confusing the Gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16; Ephesians 3:1-9) with everything that is written in the 4 Gospel accounts?

 

[JaumeJ]

I do not like that word, agreement, I believe it by faith. I do not like that word for many people have begun saying how they "agree" with God instead of believe Him and have faith from im......this isnot a criticism of your word usage, just an elaboration o my faith.

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you.Would you be In agreement with salvation Is by GOD’s grace alone and after we have been saved we are then obedient to GOD’s word as we walk In the world?

 

[JaumeJ]

Mailman, you affront any when you declare them confused. No matter how you approach saying that, it isinsulting. Now what exactly is your personal beef with me? Is it because I try my best to encourage all to learndirectly from Jesusw Christ. YOu have read my making this plea many times according to yoru resonses taht attempt to discourage my work.

 

[mailmandan]

You are going to have to make an effort to make sense.

The prayer continues "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Now the reference is God's will or, ur Father's will on earth as it is in heaven. We must begin attempting here......

I am save by grace. I know that only my Savior was perfect in the sight of God, but while I know to imitate Him and not other in this forum, I will do my best to be perfet until God is finished with the work He began (and continues to do) in me. I should hope this is true with al who believe "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

Are you trusting in your best efforts to imitate Christ and to be perfect (perfect as in mature or absolute perfection?) or are you trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation? Of course we should strive to imitate Christ and mature in Christ.

There is a difference between doing God's will in order to become saved: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND DOING GOD'S WILL AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH.

1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

 

[gb9]

how about this- how about every person who claims to follow Christ read the whole Bible, from start to finish, over and over. have your daily devotionals, do topical studies, but, in my opinion, it is imperative to get a whole perspective.

again, j.m.o. , this is a big thing that causes a lot of the disagreeing and misunderstanding we have. when I speak, I am coming from a place of having read the Bible 20 or so times through. others come from a place of isolating Scripture and building theology around it. that is not a good place.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

And so you can see that the gentiles are in fact under the law.




Yes. The person who does not mix law for justification with justification through grace believes in 'salvation by grace through faith, apart from works'-Romans 4:6. And the person now justified by grace apart from works then upholds the law by his faith-Romans 3:31.

The contention lies in which laws HAVE to be literally kept by the person who has been justified by faith in Christ. Of course, one would not HAVE to sacrifice an animal to be justified if they are already justified through their faith in Christ. On this basis the believer can decide in his own heart and mind and conscience which ceremonial laws of worship, cleanliness, and separation he must keep as a believer justified in Christ, and we need to let them.

But the bottom line is, the law of Moses was not destroyed by the coming of Christ. He said he did not come to do that. It's just that some laws simply don't have to be literally kept for the person who has been brought near to God through the new way of faith in Christ's blood.

I think you are saying that salvation Is by grace alone and then after salvation comes conditional sanctification,right?But when It comes to conditional sanctification you say that you keep the law but In thinking that way,you have fallen from grace and back Into the merit system.

Give GOD all the credit,you can’t receive salvation by grace through faith and then walk according to your will power.whether Its salvation or living holy,Its grace through faith.

 

[mailmandan]

Mailman, you affront any when you declare them confused. No matter how you approach saying that, it isinsulting. Now what exactly is your personal beef with me? Is it because I try my best to encourage all to learndirectly from Jesusw Christ. YOu have read my making this plea many times according to yoru resonses taht attempt to discourage my work.

It's not about having a personal beef with you. I call out anyone who does not seem to be straightforward about the truth of the Gospel.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I do not like that word, agreement, I believe it by faith. I do not like that word for many people have begun saying how they "agree" with God instead of believe Him and have faith from im......this isnot a criticism of your word usage, just an elaboration o my faith.

Its ok,I as long as you understand what people are saying when they use that word”agreement”meaning,me and you agree that salvation Is by grace through faith alone AND living holy In this world Is by grace through faith alone In the WORD of GOD alone to the glory of GOD alone.

 

[JaumeJ]

You and a few others seem to have this odd propesity of respondingincorrectly to a post and putting on all of the peron's posts the ideas you derive in error.

Before you feel qulified to "judge" my faith, read some more of my posts. The ideas are consistend, and they come from Jesus Crhist.

I believe it is more intelligent, if this is what you are going for, to reead what others post in a given thread before responding to whatever you find once and however you abilities interpret it........God bless you, and I pray you work to do His will. Had you even read this one you act as though you are responding to, you will lern that God is perfectin me and all who believe Jesus Christ.....Pay attention and do not respond before hearing the question.........or knowing it in this case.

Are you trusting in your best efforts to imitate Christ and to be perfect (perfect as in mature or absolute perfection?) or are you trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation? Of course we should strive to imitate Christ and mature in Christ.

There is a difference between doing God's will in order to become saved: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND DOING GOD'S WILL AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH.

1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

 

[mailmandan]

You and a few others seem to have this odd propesity of respondingincorrectly to a post and putting on all of the peron's posts the ideas you derive in error.

Before you feel qulified to "judge" my faith, read some more of my posts. The ideas are consistend, and they come from Jesus Crhist.

When you don't give me straightforward answers to my questions, what am I supposed to think? I am simply asking you what you have placed your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in for salvation.

*My straightforward answer is IN CHRIST ALONE. This comes from Jesus - John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26.

I believe it is more intelligent, if this is what you are going for, to reead what others post in a given thread before responding to whatever you find once and however you abilities interpret it........God bless you, and I pray you work to do His will. Had you even read this one you act as though you are responding to, you will lern that God is perfectin me and all who believe Jesus Christ.....Pay attention and do not respond before hearing the question.........or knowing it in this case.

Ambiguous statements, psycho babble and rhetoric are not straightforward answers.

 

[JaumeJ]

Nowhere in my posts in this thread have I ever even hinted at:

God loves Jews only.

All who believe are under the law and not grace.

Anyone posting I have is not reading and understanding my posting, and my posting is clear and adamant
on these points.
I have said all who truly love God ae jews by the translation fully of the word from Hebrew for jew is short for Yahuda or JUdah, and
it may be translated as I will praise God. Only those who love God do this, therefore they may be called Yahudim or Jews.

If you cannot understand this, do not come back with my saying otherwise or you will be found either incorrect or just plain twisting the mening of what is posted, and I will only be able to suspect antisemetism being the root of your motives and not
truth.

 

[JaumeJ]

PS........God loves everyone, and I like to believe I do too.

 

[posthuman]

PS........God loves everyone, and I like to believe I do too.

May He help us each to do so more perfectly

 

[posthuman]

It's not a question of obeying the law, it's a matter of obeying Jesus and his apostles.

I don't know why you can't get through your head that the Noahide laws the Jerusalem council authorized were not for righteous' sake, but so that that the gentiles wouldn't offend their Jewish hosts, who required their observance by gentiles attending their synagogues.

First clue ought to be that the council said abstain from meats offered to idols while Paul was writing in his epistles that idols are nothing, that all food is clean when received with thankfulness, but do not offend your own conscience and try not to be a stumbling block for the consciences of others..

Good point

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

First clue ought to be that the council said abstain from meats offered to idols while Paul was writing in his epistles that idols are nothing, that all food is clean when received with thankfulness, but do not offend your own conscience and try not to be a stumbling block for the consciences of others..

Good point

Not only food offered to idols, but eating meat with blood and from strangled animals. Paul said to buy and eat whatever meat they sold in the market without asking questions. That was a major issue to the Jews, but to the gospel it is irrelevant.

 

[Grandpa]

Because it is NOT being done for the purpose of justification (earning right standing with God).

I know the concept escapes you (and most other Christians), that somehow a person can keep a law of Moses and it not be them trying to justify themselves. You can't fathom keeping a law of Moses for any reason other than trying to earn your own salvation by doing that. But if you would just look at your own life you'd see that is what you are doing.

When you choose to not murder, or not steal, or not commit adultery you are keeping the law of Moses for a reason other than trying to be justified by it. Yet you are sure that it is impossible that the Messianic believer who keeps the law can ONLY be doing that to be justified.

I don't know why you keep bringing up justification.

Is that supposed to be some sort of legalist buzzword?

Where does Galatians say that it is ok to work at the law as long as you use the legalists excuse of saying I'm not trying to be justified by it?

Lets look again and see if we can find it in there. Maybe its ok to work at the law if you say "I'm not trying to be justified by it" afterwards?

Galatians 3:10-11

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Nope. Doesn't appear to be an exception in there. Those who work at the law are under the curse. And those who work at the law also CANNOT be justified by it, even if they wanted to.

Working at the law is working at the law whether you use the lame excuse you use or not.

So what will you do now that you have knowingly placed yourself under the curse and are attempting to put Christians under it as well?

Probably what most legalists and judaizers do... pretend you aren't doing it.
​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Here's my paraphrase of Colossians 2:6: As you received Christ Jesus the lord (by k̶e̶e̶p̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶a̶w̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶M̶o̶s̶e̶s̶ faith), walk in him (by k̶e̶e̶p̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶a̶w̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶M̶o̶s̶e̶s̶ faith)

​Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in him, Colossians 2:6​

 

[Ralph-]

I don't know why you keep bringing up justification.

Because you keep bringing it up. You and others keep insisting that law keeping is automatically and without exception a person trying to make themselves righteous in God's sight. You instantly say the person who keeps the law of Moses is trying to justify themselves and that there can not possibly be any other reason to keep the law.

Where does Galatians say that it is ok to work at the law as long as you use the legalists excuse of saying I'm not trying to be justified by it?

Lets look again and see if we can find it in there. Maybe its ok to work at the law if you say "I'm not trying to be justified by it" afterwards?

Galatians 3:10-11

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Nope. Doesn't appear to be an exception in there. Those who work at the law are under the curse. And those who work at the law also CANNOT be justified by it, even if they wanted to.

Working at the law is working at the law whether you use the lame excuse you use or not.​

Paul is not saying the Galatians can not keep the law or else they are cursed. He is telling them they can not keep the law TO BE JUSTIFIED or else they are cursed.


"you who are seeking to be justified by law"-Galatians 5:4


See, he did not say, 'you who are keeping the law'. He said, "you who are SEEKING TO BE JUSTIFIED by the law".

It's not a sin to keep the law. It's a sin to keep the law TO BE JUSTIFIED.

Messianic believers are not keeping the law to be justified (made righteous). They are keeping it for the same reason you keep it when you keep the law 'do not steal', 'do not murder', etc.​

 

[Ralph-]

I think you are saying that salvation Is by grace alone and then after salvation comes conditional sanctification,right?But when It comes to conditional sanctification you say that you keep the law but In thinking that way,you have fallen from grace and back Into the merit system.

Give GOD all the credit,you can’t receive salvation by grace through faith and then walk according to your will power.whether Its salvation or living holy,Its grace through faith.

Upholding the law in this New Covenant isn't about serving God in the power of self.

The law is kept in the new way of the Spirit, not in the old way of the written word alone (Romans 7:6). Through Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit we have been set free from the written word of the law engraved in stone that only put us in increased bondage to sin. But in the new way of the Spirit we have power to keep the law instead of being driven deeper into the bondage of sin by the law as it was before the Spirit was given. This is all in Romans for anyone to read.

 

[Ralph-]

It's not a question of obeying the law, it's a matter of obeying Jesus and his apostles.

When you obey Jesus and the Apostles teachings you will be upholding the law of Moses. That's what faith does-Romans 3:31.

I don't know why you can't get through your head that the Noahide laws the Jerusalem council authorized were not for righteous' sake.....

I never said they were told to keep them for righteousness sake. I don't know how you got that out of what I've said.


The problem you haven't addressed yet is not all the laws the council told the gentiles to keep were Noahide laws. So you can't say they were telling them to keep Noahide laws not the law of Moses.

...but so that that the gentiles wouldn't offend their Jewish hosts, who required their observance by gentiles attending their synagogues.

This is why I think they were told to keep these particular four laws of Moses (besides the ones that it goes without saying they are to keep - do not steal, do not murder, etc.). But the point is, they were told to keep these laws of Moses, but the church is sure keeping them for any reason whatsoever is automatically and without exception you trying to justify yourself.