I know of no worldly "church" that even tries to follow His Law as written and inteneded...
but to me the Law is the way to confirm the right Spirit is guiding, His Spirit would never guide outside what His Instructions are.
Do We Have To Keep The Law?
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I know of no worldly "church" that even tries to follow His Law as written and inteneded...
but to me the Law is the way to confirm the right Spirit is guiding, His Spirit would never guide outside what His Instructions are.
R
Ralph-
Guest
That's what I've been saying, in regard to the CEREMONIAL aspect of the law. None of us are sinning when we don't keep that part of the law literally. (Unless a believer feels compelled by conscience that he needs to keep it literally.)
Believers in Christ are not sinning if they do not keep the letter of the law concerning how and when to approach God in worship. But that is hardly true in regard to the moral stipulations of the law (do not steal, do not bear false witness, etc.).
And just to be clear it is arguable that it is wrong to worship God according to pagan rituals. Which is a matter related to but different from the matter of whether or not to worship God according to literal Mosaic rules. Whether or not to worship God according to literal Mosaic laws is one thing. Worshiping God using pagan practices and beliefs is another.
The weakness in your argument (undermines it completely IMO) that we are under the so-called moral part of the law, but not its other parts, is the 4th commandment. We are under no obligation to keep the letter of that commandment.
Jesus fulfilled all of the Law's requirements. (Romans 10:4, Galatians 3:13)
A. Because we can't. (Galatians 3:21)
B. Because we never could. (Hebrews 7:18-19, Philippians 3:9)
C. Not even the Jews, to whom the Law was given, could. (Galatians 6:13)
D. Because of this, we are to live by faith alone, apart from the Law. (Galatians 3:2-3, 11-12, 23-25 Romans 3:27-28)
The Law was given for only one reason: To be a schoolmaster to drive us to the cross, and no further. (Galatians 3:24-25)
If you want to go ahead and put yourself back under the commandments, you are obligated to obey them to the letter, perfectly, without fail, every second of your life. (James 2:10)
All you've managed to do, is put yourself under a curse. (Galatians 3:10-11)
R
Ralph-
Guest
It's useful for teaching. But you are resisting that aspect of the law and claiming it is the Spirit minus the law that teaches us. That's simply not true in actual practice. We need the words of the law, inhabited by the presence of the Spirit to teach us what obedience to God looks like in practice:
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness"-2 Timothy 3:16
The scripture he is referring to is the only scripture that existed at the time--the law of Moses. It is indeed good for teaching and training in right living. Paul himself said so.
The word of the law ALL BY ITSELF is what doesn't work. That's the 'old way' Paul is referring to in Romans 7:6. In this New Covenant we have the 'new way' of the Spirit inhabiting the written word and speaking it directly to us and writing it and impressing it on our hearts.
The ministry of the written word was not tossed out in this New Covenant as so many believe in the church today (because that is what they are taught). The new way is the Holy Spirit speaking those written words to our hearts.
No that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm resisting your doctrine that we are under any part of the law of Moses. As far as I'm concerned it is scripture useful in edification. That is all.
There is no mention of salvation or the security of the believer. Paul is telling those who receive circumcision - in other words, attempt to justify themselves through the rites and rules of the Law - that Christ would be of "no benefit" to them.
Paul is warning against Judaizers and their attempts to lure people back under the yoke of the Law. The verse you quoted has nothing to do with a saved person losing their salvation.
Dr Steven W. Waterhouse (Th.M., D.Min.) said it best:
"The phrase "fallen from grace" does not refer to a loss of salvation. Those who place themselves back under a yoke of the Law fall away from the doctrine of grace and from the outlook and relationship with Christ based on a system of grace.
To abandon the real way of Cristian living for an unscriptural way that God will not use, means being severed from opportunities for Christian growth and service.
Those who add works to faith cut themselves off from the only way Christ wants to lead them." - Blessed Assurance; A Defense Of The Doctrine Of Eternal Security
Try again, Ralph.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 11:27-30, "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father. And no one fully knows the Son except the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father, except the Son and those whom YHWH wills the Son to reveal. Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]
R
Ralph-
Guest
Agreed, we're not under obligation to keep the letter of the Sabbath law. So explain how that undermines my argument completely.
R
Ralph-
Guest
No, Paul explained to the Galatians that what they were doing by turning back to the law for justification and away from Christ would exclude them from inheriting the kingdom. He explained to them how trying to be justified by the law is to be a son of a slave woman--a slave woman's son who does not inherit the kingdom with the sons of the free woman:
"But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FORTHE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”-Galatians 4:30
FORTHE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”-Galatians 4:30
See, Paul is plainly telling them this is indeed a matter of salvation for them to turn to the slavery of the law by trying to be justified by the law and turning away from the justification they have through faith in Christ. You lose your justification in Christ when you do that, and as a result you will not inherit the kingdom of God.
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R
Ralph-
Guest
Help me understand what part of 2 Timothy 3:16 you do not understand:
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness"-2 Timothy 3:16
This is hardly Paul saying the law is "useful for edification. That is all."
There is no indication in Scripture that one can lose their justification (which is purely by God's grace). While Paul was warning the Galatians to not seek to be justified by the works of the Law, he (and God) regarded them thus:
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:26).
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? (Gal 4:21)
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. (Gal 5:1)
Some people mistakenly believe that this Christian liberty is a license to sin or live like the world. But what Paul is talking about is freedom from the works of the Law, and liberty of the Spirit to walk in the Spirit, not fulfil the lusts of the flesh.
R
Ralph-
Guest
Yes, they are. And he wants to keep it to stay that way.
He explains to them using Sarah and Hagar as illustrations that sons of the slave woman (the old covenant) are not included in the inheritance along with the sons of the free woman (the New Covenant). So don't go back to the old covenant for justification. You'll lose out on the inheritance.
Freedom from the bondage of the law means two basic things:
1) Freedom from the necessity to perform an endless repetition of a lawful system of atonement (because it can never take away sin guilt once and for all--Hebrews 10:1,4,11).
2) Freedom from the power of the law to keep the natural person in bondage to the sins of the flesh (Romans 7:1-6,8).
Freedom from the yoke of bondage of the law never means freedom from fulfilling the righteous requirements of the law. In fact, faith in Christ upholds those requirements, not releases you from them. Even the requirements in the law that we don't have to literally fulfill anymore are satisfied by faith in Christ, not broken by faith in Christ.
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Yes, a person is made free from the curse of the law by receiving the spirit of God, thereby being made righteous in his site. The law was never abolished because if it had been, sin would have gone back into the state that it was in before the law. Imputed, where there is no law, sin is imputed. That is why Jesus did not abolish it. The only way sin was to be imputed was to believe on Jesus and receive his spirit in us.,and no longer by the powerless letter.All those that are saved, sin has been imputed. We are no longer held accountable. That is why Jesus told the woman at the well, that she knew not what she was saying. He told her that The Father seek those that will worship him in truth and in spirit. His truth, and his spirit. They were worshiping God in the flesh,because they had not his spirit in them yet. Thus still being under the curse of the law. You must have his spirit in you in order to be from under the curse of the law, .if not you still walk after the flesh,and is still under the law. He is the spiritual law,and not the lettewr law.
<because we never could----is true>
<because we can't----is false>
why would God tell us to be perfect and sin no more IF it was an IMpossibility ?
what you are IGnoring/rejecting/denying is the Power of GOD's Holy Spirit in a man who will AChieve all of God's Purpose....in good time !!!
And the Proof of His Spirit is evident when we follow His Teaching...when we DO what He says....when we are.become obedient ! If we DON'T Do as we are told there will be no FRUITS !!!
Liberty of the Spirit. Looking into the perfect Law of Liberty. The new man in Christ Jesus.
James through the Spirit shared. Of his own will begat he us (born again through the Spirit) with the word of truth, that we (Christians) should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures (a new man through Christ; behold old things have passed away; all things are new and of GOD). Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word (in our hearts and in our minds. No longer on Tables of stone but in the fleshly tables of our hearts through the Spirit of the Living GOD), which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers (of that which is engrafted in) only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was (the New Creature created in Christ Jesus). But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty (His new reflection created in Christ Jesus; begot by the word of truth), and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
(Jas 1:18-25;2:12 KJV)
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