Death and Dying, part deux

[SovereignGrace]

#1 - What I have said throughout - God is not in control of EVERYTHING - MY meaning - God is NOT the causation of evil. I believe I said God does not control the evil done to us. (I could be wrong - there has been so much said and sometimes our words don't fully convey the full meaning of what we are trying to say!)
#2 - Then the "permission" thingy was brought up . . . I responded basically with if God responds to Satan with permission, assent, consent, allowing Satan to do evil then He is the causation of the evil that happens. I also responded with scripture.
#3 - When you posted scripture I responded to scripture - When I posted scripture, the scriptures I posted were never responded to.
#4 - If God says that Satan is the god of this world - then Satan is in control of things happening in this WORLD.
#5 - If God says that the whole world lies in the power, control of the evil one - then Satan is controlling the evil in this WORLD.
#6 - God stopping the evil that touches us - Yes, God can and will intervene on our behalf through our prayers and our faith
#7 - God stopping the evil that touches us - He has also given us the tools to keep ourselves from the wicked one
#8 - God does not render evil (make, cause, give) just so he can turn around and make it good - He takes the evil done, by and through our enemy and His, and makes it good.
#9 - Post #40 - "

It's easy for me to pray because I know where the evil comes from . . . I trust because I know where the evil comes from. I stay alert and watchful, aware of evil's methods and I hopefully, to the best of my ability, I keep myself within the full armor of God to avoid the fiery darts of the wicked . . . Yes, the fiery darts of the wicked NOT any evil that God "allows" to touch me. God "allowing" evil to touch me is God orchestrating with Satan to perform evil. As scripture says - there is no darkness in God at all - evil is darkness and I guess that's why I believe the way I do."
#10 - So, there is a problem with a God who allows evil and yet, tells me how to avoid evil - If God is permitting the evil to befall me then it is his will . . . but yet we are told to fight against evil??????​

​

Just because God is not the causation of evil, does not mean He is not in control. God was in full control of Job’s predicament.



Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.”The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing?Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.”Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, do not put forth your hand on him.So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.[Job 1:6-12]


Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the Lord. The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause.” Satan answered the Lordand said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face.” So the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life.”[Job 2:1-6]


In both instance, God gave Satan permission to assault Job, but he could only go so far. God is in complete control.

 

[Katy-follower]

Would Joseph be a good example here?....

Genesis 50:20: "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive"

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes, katy, that's excellent!

 

[Stranger36147]

Would Joseph be a good example here?....

Genesis 50:20: "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive"

Last night, I finally got to the end of Genesis and remember reading this verse.

 

[SovereignGrace]

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.[Romans 8:28]


If God is not in control of everything, how can He cause ALL THINGS to work together for our good?

 

[JGIG]

JGIG, you are a warm and perceptive woman. You can't see why taking someones difficult story/testimony/awful experience and reposting it with the comment that the post or the thoughts of the poster could do damage to others or make them turn from God or reject Him (it was what you posted down at the bottom of your post and I don't remember the exact words you used) could hurt someone? You can't find it in you to say you may have not been considering how that could make someone feel, considering that it was an awful thing to have lived through? Forget the ongoing battle and think about her hurt for just a moment. You guys can pick the ongoing battle back up later but can't you at all see what I'm saying?

Okay, JGIG, it is enough.

If you cannot see why she was hurt, then you can't.
Could you at least just let it go?

The perception that God causes (or in Depleted's words, "has them go through") the kind of thing that happened to Depleted for whatever purpose is a twisted, dysfunctional view of God Who laid down His Life for His Sheep. It offends me that Depleted credits God for the actions of evil men. Depleted clearly states, "Aka God. The one who got me where I needed to be by taking me through something I never thought could happen to me."

Misrepresenting the character of God is not something I can look the other way on. I know people who have found paganism to be a kinder, more loving way of life than theology that has been promoted by Depleted and those like her.

It's the kindness of God that brings people to repentance (see Rom. 2).

There is no fear of judgement for those in Christ:

16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us.

20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. (from 1 Jn. 4)​

God heals the broken hearted and binds up their wounds (Ps. 147).

God is the rescuer, not the tormentor.



-JGIG

 

[SovereignGrace]

The perception that God causes (or in Depleted's words, "has them go through") the kind of thing that happened to Depleted for whatever purpose is a twisted, dysfunctional view of God Who laid down His Life for His Sheep. It offends me that Depleted credits God for the actions of evil men. Depleted clearly states, "Aka God. The one who got me where I needed to be by taking me through something I never thought could happen to me."

Misrepresenting the character of God is not something I can look the other way on. I know people who have found paganism to be a kinder, more loving way of life than theology that has been promoted by Depleted and those like her.

It's the kindness of God that brings people to repentance (see Rom. 2).

There is no fear of judgement for those in Christ:

16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us.

20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. (from 1 Jn. 4)​

God heals the broken hearted and binds up their wounds (Ps. 147).

God is the rescuer, not the tormentor.



-JGIG

I guess Joseph spoke outta turn then.

 

[UnderGrace]

Is this a universally applicable doctrine?

Would Joseph be a good example here?....

Genesis 50:20: "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive"

 

[shrume]

[FONT=&]And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.[Romans 8:28]


If God is not in control of everything, how can He cause ALL THINGS to work together for our good?[/FONT]

He sometimes can't.

In the Greek, Romans 8:28 can -legitimately- be translated two ways. In the KJV, and several other versions, it reads something like:

Rom 8: (KJV)
28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

That is implying that "all things work together for our good", as you indicated above. IOW, anything and everything that happens to us somehow works out for our good. That's the Calvinist understanding of that verse. It's not always true.

Another way to understand it is as the NIV has it:

Rom 8: (NIV)
28) And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

This way of understanding the verse is always true. No matter what happens to us here in this life, God is always working for our good.

 

[UnderGrace]

C.S. Lewis wrote about a 'severe mercy" in a letter to a friend, and excellent book btw.....however what I read in some posts is

a tending more towards a "dangerous comfort" in what is essentially, in some ways a non biblical view of God's sovereignty.

The perception that God causes (or in Depleted's words, "has them go through") the kind of thing that happened to Depleted for whatever purpose is a twisted, dysfunctional view of God Who laid down His Life for His Sheep. It offends me that Depleted credits God for the actions of evil men. Depleted clearly states, "Aka God. The one who got me where I needed to be by taking me through something I never thought could happen to me."

Misrepresenting the character of God is not something I can look the other way on. I know people who have found paganism to be a kinder, more loving way of life than theology that has been promoted by Depleted and those like her.

It's the kindness of God that brings people to repentance (see Rom. 2).

There is no fear of judgement for those in Christ:

16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us.

20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. (from 1 Jn. 4)​

God heals the broken hearted and binds up their wounds (Ps. 147).

God is the rescuer, not the tormentor.



-JGIG

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The perception that God causes (or in Depleted's words, "has them go through") the kind of thing that happened to Depleted for whatever purpose is a twisted, dysfunctional view of God Who laid down His Life for His Sheep. It offends me that Depleted credits God for the actions of evil men. Depleted clearly states, "Aka God. The one who got me where I needed to be by taking me through something I never thought could happen to me."

Misrepresenting the character of God is not something I can look the other way on. I know people who have found paganism to be a kinder, more loving way of life than theology that has been promoted by Depleted and those like her.

It's the kindness of God that brings people to repentance (see Rom. 2).

There is no fear of judgement for those in Christ:

16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us.

20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. (from 1 Jn. 4)​

God heals the broken hearted and binds up their wounds (Ps. 147).

God is the rescuer, not the tormentor.



-JGIG

I don't know what else to say...listen to what you are saying. Look at your heart that can't feel sad that you hurt someone deeply. you're offended by a woman who was brutally used by five men at once. She testifies that she met God because of what happened to her. She testifies He let her go through that and brought her to Him and saved and healed her. And you're offended by her. It's sounding like cain and abel. Cain killed abel because he was offended that God approved of abel and his sacrifice but didn't approve of Cains sacrifice. God approves the sacrifice of a contrite and sorry heart and He approves of the sacrifice of thankful lips. And you are offended and think these things God approves of in lynn are twisted and dysfunctional and turn people to paganism?

A woman was brutally used by five men and her testimony of how good and merciful God has been to her is offensive to you. She thanks God for all He has brought to her life because He has given her a beautiful eternity for ashes. And do you know what will happen now? God will heal her hurt from you abusing her all over again in this and He will cause her to love you and pray for you and lay down her hurt feelings and anger and forgive you. The woman who offends you will plead for you before God. She's already forgiven five men for much worse than you have done to her. She laid down her life and right to not forgive to pray for those five men because her Lord loves them and desires to not have them perish. That's where He took her. He will also have her lay down her life , her self, to pray for and love you too. And you will be even more offended by her.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

A severe mercy that is terrifying. That would do or allow anything it takes to turn a proud man or woman to Him to save them. Yes, a terrifying love and mercy.

 

[UnderGrace]

Well I suggest you read the book before you assume what the phrase means.

Yes, I have seen many street preachers with huge banners of people falling into the fiery flames of hell, terror and fear do not contravene pride.

Love actually does, I preach Christ's forgiveness, that is what people need to know and that is the message He brought.

A severe mercy that is terrifying. That would do or allow anything it takes to turn a proud man or woman to Him to save them. Yes, a terrifying love and mercy.

 

[SovereignGrace]

In Deuteronomy 28, there are 68 vss, with the first 14 addressing what will happen if they are obedient, and the last 54 address the consequences of disobedience. That shows me the emphasis God places upon disobedience and the consequences of disobeying Him.

The results of disobedience is...

--cursed in the city and country...vs 16
--basket and kneading trough cursed...vs 17
--womb, crops, calves and lambs all cursed...vs 18
--the LORD will send upon them curses, confusion...vs 20
--the LORD will plague them with diseases...vs 21
--LORD will strike them with wasting disease, fever and inflammation...vs 22
--the LORD will afflict them with boils, tumors, festering sores, itch, which can not be cured...vs 27
--the LORD will afflict them with madness, blindness, and confusion of mind...vs 28
--the LORD will bring a nation far away against them...vs vs


Tell me again how God is not in control of everything.

 

[Angela53510]

I don't know what else to say...listen to what you are saying. Look at your heart that can't feel sad that you hurt someone deeply. you're offended by a woman who was brutally used by five men at once. She testifies that she met God because of what happened to her. She testifies He let her go through that and brought her to Him and saved and healed her. And you're offended by her. It's sounding like cain and abel. Cain killed abel because he was offended that God approved of abel and his sacrifice but didn't approve of Cains sacrifice. God approves the sacrifice of a contrite and sorry heart and He approves of the sacrifice of thankful lips. And you are offended and think these things God approves of in lynn are twisted and dysfunctional and turn people to paganism?

A woman was brutally used by five men and her testimony of how good and merciful God has been to her is offensive to you. She thanks God for all He has brought to her life because He has given her a beautiful eternity for ashes. And do you know what will happen now? God will heal her hurt from you abusing her all over again in this and He will cause her to love you and pray for you and lay down her hurt feelings and anger and forgive you. The woman who offends you will plead for you before God. She's already forgiven five men for much worse than you have done to her. She laid down her life and right to not forgive to pray for those five men because her Lord loves them and desires to not have them perish. That's where He took her. He will also have her lay down her life , her self, to pray for and love you too. And you will be even more offended by her.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Stunnedbygrace again.

 

[Depleted]

I did add the link. Go back and look. Stunnedbygrace even went to your post linked to with that hyperlink and compared the post I quoted with your original and noted that I changed nothing of what was quoted.





Sooooo, must those who wish to quote what you write here at CC ask your permission to do so? Should that be a new, special rule here at CC that applies just to Depleted?

The vast majority of posts on every single thread here at CC (and most other forums) use the quote function, with occasional editing to address the points made and not necessarily the other poster's entire post.

After posting over 22,130 times here at CC, you know that. Heck, you've done that!






I quoted the portion of your post that I was addressing in my post. It is common practice by those who post here at CC. You've done it.

I was disagreeing with your perception of God through your experiences. No one should have to go through the things you did. It's completely normal for us to want to understand why or to hope that there is some purpose for the things that happen in our lives - things that happen to US. There are things in my life that have happened where God expressly revealed through His Word that what was happening to me was NOT how He intended for things to be, but that because He would not cross the free will of others, He promised to walk through that season/circumstance and sustain me through it.

Never, not for one moment, did I think that God was choosing to not intervene on my behalf because He was trying to teach me something, or to try to bend or shape me in some way. No - He simply loved me and showed me in His Word His Character and Who He is AND who I as His daughter am in Him. And that's exactly what I needed to walk through that season. Much damage could have been done to me, and though not unscathed, God sustained me and healed the places that were wounded.







I did attribute the post to you, including a hyperlink to your post. The content of the quote was attributed to you, indented twice to differentiate it as your post, and in italics, as quoted posts are.







Quoting with a hyperlink to the original post is not plagiarism.







If you rather that you hadn't posted what you did, I completely understand that. Your story is of a highly sensitive nature. Perhaps you could contact the mods and request that they remove that content.

But it's out there, and this is a discussion forum. You were making a serious statement using part of your life's story about how you view God. This thread is a continuation of your thread, started by another poster (perhaps you should be mad at them?). Your perception of how you view God came up in this thread. Posters occasionally pull posts from other threads, so my doing so was not out of the norm. I believe that your view is a dysfunctional one, promulgated by a Calvinist influenced mindset. My intent was not to wound you by quoting your post, but to show where I disagree with your view and why. That happens on a discussion forum.






Lynn, you're obviously very upset about this, and offended. Should I apologize for disagreeing with you? Should my perception of God, based on what He's shown me over my lifetime through His Word and in the midst of circumstances I've been through be any less valid than yours?

I am not the source of your hurt - I quoted your post - with a hyperlink - something every person on this forum does on a regular basis - including YOU. Again, if the content of your post is something you'd rather not have out there, I totally get that. The remedy to that is not railing against me, falsely accusing and threatening me, it's in contacting the mods to see if they will remove that content.

God is God. He is Who He is. It's obvious that there are different perceptions of how He loves us, disciplines us, teaches us.

This is a discussion forum where such things are discussed. You are quick to take offense if someone disagrees with your perception of God or your theological opinions. Not only are you quick to take offense, but then you go on the attack, attempting to discredit and assassinate the character of those who disagree with you.

Now you've upped the ante to threatening me.

Then those who are your targets have to decide whether to let what you say just hang out there, or defend ourselves, correcting the record.

The result is messy threads where the topic that was being discussed gets lost in the messiness. And you are the impetus for many of the times that happens.

If you are confident that what you believe is true, then just put it out there and let the reader decide.







You will find you have no case. You post here with the expectation/understanding that you will be quoted. One does not post over 22,000 times like you have and not know that. We all know that.

Neither CC nor I took your post and published it on an outside source or has sought any monetary gain from your composition. A hyperlink was posted at the beginning of your quote, and I stated that Depleted wrote the following preceding the hyperlink and the quote. The text was indented twice and appeared in italics as quotes do to separate it from the text of my post.

No case.

That quote is from William Shakespeare, btw. Don't need him getting mad at me, too !


-JGIG

You and Pepe le Pew have something in common. Your words and actions are equal in showing how much you both love God.

Now, let me teach you plagiarism 101. Plagiarism (as defined by Merriam Websters second definition) -- [FONT=&quot]: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]to commit literary theft [/FONT][FONT=&quot]: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source[/FONT]

Please note, it says nothing about taking it from another site. Why? Because whatever we write, wherever we write it, the copyright belongs to us. What you just wrote belongs to you, not me. And what I wrote, belongs to me, not you.

Please note also you did "present as new and original an idea derived from an existing source." I am that existing source, and yet you took my idea and changed it into YOUR idea. I was not yours to change. This is called "stealing." "Theft." There is the commandment against it and everything. AND there is law against it.

Please note, no mention of monitary gain. You got that one from sites that really like people taking their stuff to be seen, and assumed somehow that since they give permission it has something to do with permission means not Plagiarism. Truth be knonw, had you played to game with sites that let people use their sites, they'd send you a C & D order the second they found out you changed their stuff.
It is immoral and illegal, even if you claim that's what I said and meant. Much of it was what I said, but you changed it in small ways, and never asked me if you could.

Because you are so self-involved in yourself, you don't even get what else is involved. That Telecommunications Act? Guess who that is against -- websites. Do you know you can write anything you want on a site, and the owners do not have to worry about what you say, because they cannot get in legal trouble over anything but ONE thing. When someone steals someone else's writing and makes it their own, if the website does not remove it, the author can sue the site too.

End of the week, and the lawyer didn't get back to me, but I'll tell you what I want and what I am prepared to do to get what I want.

I want you to apologize to me for hijacking my writing and changing it into what you wanted it to say to prove-a-point. I want it public, so everyone can see it. I also want you to contact CC to have that post (and all the posts that quoted that post removed.) And I want to see this happening by Monday.

If it does not happen, I will sue who I need to sue -- you and CC. You because you did it. CC because they did nothing about it. I'm not playing your self-involved, sanctimonious game. And, I am a writer, and have had to go through this two other times in my life, so don't think I'm bluffing. I can't play poker because I've got no idea when and how to bluff, (and really don't like gambling.) So, seriously, I'm not bluffing.Your teh game player. I'm not.

Funny how you rode Angela on her lack of compassion while proving you probably don't even know what it means, once more do it.

You are the source of my hurt. It's not physical or emotional pain. It's the hurt that comes particular by someone who pretends to be a Christian so certain she is infinitely important, therefore my need and desires don't have to be met. (You might want to remove your signatures though. You just proved they are useless.)

I truly hope you will do what I asked you to do. If not, you'll be the one hurting -- financially and time wise.

 

[Laish]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Stunnedbygrace again.

I have your back sister
Blessings
Bill

 

[SovereignGrace]

I have your back sister
Blessings
Bill

I agree that both of you are good at spreading it...

 

[SovereignGrace]

A company has a CEO. Now, in this company, each department has a boss. Each boss is over his department, but they must answer to the CEO.

That is the way Satan. He is 'god' of this world, but he answers to the God of the universe. He governs over that which God allows him, but He overrides him.

 

[Laish]

I agree that both of you are good at spreading it...

Lol I just need to spread it more to stop getting that message that I need to spread more lol
Blessings
Bill