Grappling With Why God Allows Evil To Continue

[soberxp]

Isa 45:6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

You 2 don't know what you are arguing about. God is God and everything else falls short of being God/perfect and for this reason:

God is Holy/good- means everything else experiences increases in evil
God is light- means everything else is in the dark and the more it is dark, the brighter God is comparatively.
And the list goes on and on but because God loves man, He wants man to shift from darkness to His side so that they are one (perfect/eternal/good/wise). So, man will be one with God- being in God and God in them. means that man will be God.

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so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other.[/TD]
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I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.[/TD]
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[Stunnedbygrace]

I have to go.

PB, once again, I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I understand you better and that's so good. You are a great sister to have. You sharpen me!

I skool want to address your last post regarding free will because I think we can understand and come closer on that too. It I'll have to do it later.

Thanks again for great conversation, as always.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yeah, skool, I said it. Meant it too!

 

[maxwel]

This was PeacefulBelievers post:


#1 - What I have said throughout - God is not in control of EVERYTHING - MY meaning - God is NOT the causation of evil. I believe I said God does not control the evil done to us. (I could be wrong - there has been so much said and sometimes our words don't fully convey the full meaning of what we are trying to say!)
#2 - Then the "permission" thingy was brought up . . . I responded basically with if God responds to Satan with permission, assent, consent, allowing Satan to do evil then He is the causation of the evil that happens. I also responded with scripture.
#3 - When you posted scripture I responded to scripture - When I posted scripture, the scriptures I posted were never responded to.
#4 - If God says that Satan is the god of this world - then Satan is in control of things happening in this WORLD.
#5 - If God says that the whole world lies in the power, control of the evil one - then Satan is controlling the evil in this WORLD.
#6 - God stopping the evil that touches us - Yes, God can and will intervene on our behalf through our prayers and our faith
#7 - God stopping the evil that touches us - He has also given us the tools to keep ourselves from the wicked one
#8 - God does not render evil (make, cause, give) just so he can turn around and make it good - He takes the evil done, by and through our enemy and His, and makes it good.
#9 - Post #40 - "

It's easy for me to pray because I know where the evil comes from . . . I trust because I know where the evil comes from. I stay alert and watchful, aware of evil's methods and I hopefully, to the best of my ability, I keep myself within the full armor of God to avoid the fiery darts of the wicked . . . Yes, the fiery darts of the wicked NOT any evil that God "allows" to touch me. God "allowing" evil to touch me is God orchestrating with Satan to perform evil. As scripture says - there is no darkness in God at all - evil is darkness and I guess that's why I believe the way I do."
#10 - So, there is a problem with a God who allows evil and yet, tells me how to avoid evil - If God is permitting the evil to befall me then it is his will . . . but yet we are told to fight against evil??????
​

A. I want to thank PeacefulBeliever and StunnedbyGrace for trying to address a difficult topic in a polite and respectful way.


B. First of all, we're mixing at least 3 different arguments:
1. Theodicy: where does evil actually come from; what is the first cause, and who is the responsible party.
2. Sovereignty: just precisely, to what degree, is God in control of his creation
3. Problem of Evil: not necessarily HOW evil got into the world, but rather WHY God continues to allow it in our lives.

We'd do well to separate them for analysis, rather than mashing them all up together.

When we mash different things all up together, it just makes everything confusing.


C. These issues are very old issues, and have been discussed for centuries; some are easily answered, and some are a bit more mysterious.

We DO need to address them, but we shouldn't be surprised to find some disagreement.


D. The "10 problems" listed above, are really not 10 problems.

There are 2-3 problems, and all the other points are just conclusions built upon those.


E. This post contains 2-3 common, and understandable, logic errors (such as category mistakes), and all the points in the list are just layers of conclusions built upon these small but important errors.

It looks like a long list to debate, but it's not; it really boils down to only a couple of problem spots.


F. This particular debate about evil isn't really such a confusing problem philosophically or theologically... it's really more of an emotional issue.

Most of these things can all be sorted, pretty easily, with the Bible and with logic... but it's not so easily sorted within our own emotions. The whole problem of evil just upsets us humans, and it all seems horrible and unfair, and we have a total melt-down trying to decide who to blame.

It's a hard problem emotionally. But if we remove our emotions, it's not so difficult as a logic problem.


G. Everyone seems to be making a lot of good points, so I'll just add my two cents to the thread, and check back later.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Yes, it should be fully expected that the Holy Spirit brings us closer together in understanding and agreement.

Look at this instead. God could choose to end it today and no longer allow evil to touch us in this world. Yet He is currently permitting it to continue. He is currently allowing it to continue. Of course it isn't because He can't bring it to an end right this minute. Does this make God the one perpetrating evil and sin?

The whole world goes on. He could bring an end to it but hasn't yet. You said once that if God allows evil to be done to anyone and COULD stop it but doesnt, that makes Him responsible or at least partly culpable for evil. But He could stop it at any minute, and will end it one day. So by that statement, He is being put on trial.

But I know you don't intend that. Your entire thought has been that He ISN'T to blame for evil.

Correct, I don't believe that He is to be blamed for evil - but he gives the permission for evil to be done, he gives his authority for the evil to be perpetrated. . . .

God is in control of everything - So if my friend is in an accident and is paralyzed - I can encourage her - "God allowed it and only meant it for good". If my friend was just told she has cancer - I can encourage her - "God allowed it and only meant it for good." . . . Would this grow her faith and love for God OR would it make her want to turn her back on God and if she wasn't a believer in the first place, would this encourage her to believe. . . . .This is a BIG stumbling block for me.

On one hand we have God allowing evil - on the other hand we see a war - a war between God and the spiritual forces of Satan. So we are told "Put on the whole armor of God so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." - why, if God is giving his permission in the first place then wouldn't it be his will for the devil to touch us . . .

You know there is a MUCH bigger picture to this whole thing with Job - the key point is NOT Satan asking permission, but Satan's accusation to God was that Job ONLY feared

God​

(held Him

in the greatest honor and reverence)​

because of what He had done for him. . .

Satan is setting forth a challenge to God - Does Job fear God for nothing? Have you not made a hedge around him, around his household and around all that he has on every side? (Job 1:9-10) IOW - "why wouldn't Job have the greatest honor and reverence for you when you have this hedge of protection around him and everything he owns - let me take all this away and we'll just see what happens". So the battle is on and the battleground is Job's heart, his mind, and his being. In this conflict - Satan is allowed to afflict one of God's servants because of the challenge he set forth at the beginning of the chapter. . . . There is SO much in this chapter - Job NEVER blamed God even believing that God was perpetrating the evil against him and "it rains on the just and the unjust". Probably even so much more there even after I have read it many times . . .​

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Well you know me I always have to rush back because I thought of one more thing to say.

When we are able to begin walking this well and discussing freely with no one afraid of being attacked for being honest about how they currently see and understand something but just free and respectful conversation, I always think this and it makes me cry profusely: look! They have all begun to speak the same language (of the Spirit). Now ​nothing they purpose to do will be impossible for them!!

Back soon to read you and maxwell. They both look like awesome posts!

 

[claysmithr]

True love requires free will. With free will carries the potential to do evil. The question is, how does God remove evil without removing us? The answer is Jesus Christ.

Since God is outside of time/space, everything we experience here happens to God instantly, and God has already seen the end, before it began. God is using our free will to allow us to choose Jesus Christ in this life, if we don't he'll quarantine evil (us) in hell, so heaven can remain perfect, because sin is like yeast, a little bit of sin in heaven would cause the entire place to fall.

When we choose Jesus, we give God permission to remake us without sin, because Jesus paid the penalty for our sin.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Correct, I don't believe that He is to be blamed for evil - but he gives the permission for evil to be done, he gives his authority for the evil to be perpetrated. . . .

God is in control of everything - So if my friend is in an accident and is paralyzed - I can encourage her - "God allowed it and only meant it for good". If my friend was just told she has cancer - I can encourage her - "God allowed it and only meant it for good." . . . Would this grow her faith and love for God OR would it make her want to turn her back on God and if she wasn't a believer in the first place, would this encourage her to believe. . . . .This is a BIG stumbling block for me.

On one hand we have God allowing evil - on the other hand we see a war - a war between God and the spiritual forces of Satan. So we are told "Put on the whole armor of God so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." - why, if God is giving his permission in the first place then wouldn't it be his will for the devil to touch us . . .

You know there is a MUCH bigger picture to this whole thing with Job - the key point is NOT Satan asking permission, but Satan's accusation to God was that Job ONLY feared

God​

(held Him

in the greatest honor and reverence)​

because of what He had done for him. . .

Satan is setting forth a challenge to God - Does Job fear God for nothing? Have you not made a hedge around him, around his household and around all that he has on every side? (Job 1:9-10) IOW - "why wouldn't Job have the greatest honor and reverence for you when you have this hedge of protection around him and everything he owns - let me take all this away and we'll just see what happens". So the battle is on and the battleground is Job's heart, his mind, and his being. In this conflict - Satan is allowed to afflict one of God's servants because of the challenge he set forth at the beginning of the chapter. . . . There is SO much in this chapter - Job NEVER blamed God even believing that God was perpetrating the evil against him and "it rains on the just and the unjust". Probably even so much more there even after I have read it many times . . .​

Okay, so by your first paragraph, you have changed your mind kind of drastically by talking it through and grappling with it. I want to make sure this is so and I'm not just misunderstanding your first paragraph. (And by the way, we have to expect He will change our minds on some things or there would be NO renewing of our minds and no learning more of Him. )

Okay, second paragraph. Yes, the way you phrase all of that would be a big stumbling block for me too! What occurs to me as I read it is how Jobs friends were quite a few days sitting with him while he mourned and not even saying a word. In fact, it was when they opened their mouths that the trouble began! Before that, they just sat and mourned with him and let him mourn.
They didn't tell him his children were dead and God allowed it and meant it only for good. Actually, when they did finally open their big mouths they blamed the death of his children and all his troubles as being because he must have sinned against God in some way. They basically said, oh you HAD to have done something to make God angry or your children wouldn't be dead and none of this trouble would have come to you. And Job was like, this is what you say to me and you call yourselves my friends??!

So yeah, the way you say in your second paragraph - NOT the way to comfort your friend who lost their child to say: God had your child killed to do good for you. Unless you want to HAVE no friends (or get shot) you won't do that.

God didn't cause his kids to die - satan did. And it's true that God blessed Job and turned what satan did for the good of Job because Job said in the end: before I had only heard about God but now I've actually seen Him and met Him for myself! It is good to meet God because no one who hasn't met Him will ever be with Him!

But we're back to the struggle over why God allows it to still go on. He allowed evil to touch Job. He could bring it all to a halt but He still hasn't. Which is Him permitting it to go on. Job went through hell. Just a horrible experience. The kind that just makes everyone very uncomfortable around the person and not knowing what you could possibly say. Before it all happened, he was very religious. He offered sacrifices even for possible unknown sins of his kids. But he'd never met God for himself. He'd only heard about Him. So you can't deny that God worked it all for his eternity and eternal good in the end.

And we earlier (the last few days) heard the same kind of testimony from a woman who was brutally attacked. That no matter how awful what she went through was, it turned her to God. But once again, God didn't perpetrate the evil but He did work it for her eternal good.

It's great comfort to me to know that when evil touches me in this world, God will work it for my good. That, as fantastical as it sounds, even the evil of someone else against me He can work for good.

The last paragraph of your post almost knocked my socks off. And it gives me personally the impression that God permitted it all in order to try Jobs faith and remove any slag. And you know our trust (faith) is our most precious possession. It's what God SAVES us through (by grace, through trust). And if it's what He saves us through, it makes perfect sense that it's what satan would attack.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Okay, so by your first paragraph, you have changed your mind kind of drastically by talking it through and grappling with it. I want to make sure this is so and I'm not just misunderstanding your first paragraph. (And by the way, we have to expect He will change our minds on some things or there would be NO renewing of our minds and no learning more of Him. )

Well, actually, I haven't changed my mind - I never blamed God for the evil - I see others blaming God for the evil in an indirect manner.

What I have said was: IF God gives Satan permission (permits, allows, agrees to, authorizes) evil then God would be just as much to blame for the evil that happens. . . . that doesn't sound like a hypothetical position to you - IF? . . .

Okay, second paragraph. Yes, the way you phrase all of that would be a big stumbling block for me too! What occurs to me as I read it is how Jobs friends were quite a few days sitting with him while he mourned and not even saying a word. In fact, it was when they opened their mouths that the trouble began! Before that, they just sat and mourned with him and let him mourn.

They didn't tell him his children were dead and God allowed it and meant it only for good. Actually, when they did finally open their big mouths they blamed the death of his children and all his troubles as being because he must have sinned against God in some way. They basically said, oh you HAD to have done something to make God angry or your children wouldn't be dead and none of this trouble would have come to you. And Job was like, this is what you say to me and you call yourselves my friends??!

Yes, they thought God was "punishing" Job for sin . . . Job, as well as his friends, thought God was punishing him for a wrong he had done. People still think like that today. Job said: What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. . . . Basically, "for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matt. 5:45)

So yeah, the way you say in your second paragraph - NOT the way to comfort your friend who lost their child to say: God had your child killed to do good for you. Unless you want to HAVE no friends (or get shot) you won't do that.

God didn't cause his kids to die - satan did. And it's true that God blessed Job and turned what satan did for the good of Job because Job said in the end: before I had only heard about God but now I've actually seen Him and met Him for myself! It is good to meet God because no one who hasn't met Him will ever be with Him!

They did not understand that it was Satan in the background doing it all. Now if, in the OT, Satan was revealed to be all that we know of him now - they would have known who did it and you are correct, God did work in the situation: And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before. So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses. . . . God worked when Job prayed for his friends NOT for himself - that in itself is remarkable!!! Makes me think of "Humble yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." He LOVED OTHERS AS HE LOVED HIMSELF . . . My problem lies with "Satan HAD to actually ask permission BEFORE the evil could touch Job". IOW, Satan has to ask permission to cause pain and suffering when this world lies in his control anyway. (1 John 5:19) Is he not "as a roaring lion walking about seeking whom he may devour" just as he was in the beginning of Job?

But we're back to the struggle over why God allows it to still go on. He allowed evil to touch Job. He could bring it all to a halt but He still hasn't. Which is Him permitting it to go on. Job went through hell. Just a horrible experience. The kind that just makes everyone very uncomfortable around the person and not knowing what you could possibly say. Before it all happened, he was very religious. He offered sacrifices even for possible unknown sins of his kids. But he'd never met God for himself. He'd only heard about Him. So you can't deny that God worked it all for his eternity and eternal good in the end.

Job went through hell, but through it all he stood upon what he knew of God - He endured and was still a righteous man for he did not curse God and die as he was encouraged to do . . . as Satan wanted him to do. I would say that he knew his God very well!

I don't think that I have ever denied that God can work in any situation and turn it for good - that is what happened to Joseph - Joseph's brothers were jealous of him - they threw him in a pit, Now, did Satan ask God permission for this to be done to Joseph . . . It was allowed but it was all on Satan working in the hearts of Joseph's brothers to provoke them to jealousy. Joseph was sold in Egypt to Potiphar but Joseph found favor - so yes, what Joseph's brothers meant for harm God turned to good.

I am <snipping> the rest and placing it in my next response - This is getting too long.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

cont.

And we earlier (the last few days) heard the same kind of testimony from a woman who was brutally attacked. That no matter how awful what she went through was, it turned her to God. But once again, God didn't perpetrate the evil but He did work it for her eternal good.

It's great comfort to me to know that when evil touches me in this world, God will work it for my good. That, as fantastical as it sounds, even the evil of someone else against me He can work for good.

I am better off knowing that evil in the world is allowed because that is how God set it up . . . Satan is a free agent to seek and devour whom he wants . . . He set it up for Satan to "strike his (Jesus') heel" and today, the body of believers are still being struck (so to speak) until Christ returns and "crushes Satan's head" . . . I know the outcome, I know that evil exists . . . but Satan going to God to ask permission before he touches a child of His - nope, don't see it. Evil never brings me comfort - the comfort only comes with knowing - Joy comes in the morning.

The last paragraph of your post almost knocked my socks off. And it gives me personally the impression that God permitted it all in order to try Jobs faith and remove any slag. And you know our trust (faith) is our most precious possession. It's what God SAVES us through (by grace, through trust). And if it's what He saves us through, it makes perfect sense that it's what satan would attack.

The ONLY reason God had this conversation with Satan was to show Satan that Job didn't just love and reverence Him because of what God had given him. And that is how it turned out, Satan's "fiery darts" did not turn Job and make him curse God and die - He persevered through it all - because when God is for us WHO can be against us - Job ran the race and he ran it well. The OT is written for our learning - For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope. -

So the first two chapters of Job set up as an allegory (sort of like a parable - set up to teach a moral lesson) open up to us that Satan is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, that it rains on the just and the unjust alike, the great stance of a righteous man of God who endured.

God used Satan to "try" Job's faith - He already knew Job was a perfect and upright man - why "try" him?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hmm...maybe it is just my perception of what you meant that has changed...or maybe you aren't fully aware that your mind has been somewhat changed on it...or maybe you still have the exact same mind on it but are using much different words to get your point across...or maybe its a little of all three.

You just said God gives permission for the evil to be done whereas before, I perceived you to be saying that you had a problem with the God giving permission thing. You considered that Job could be allegory because it just didn't sit quite right with you that satan had to ask permission and God had to permit it and lay out the limits...and I didn't get a real grasp on what you thought of the second instance I brought up about satan asking permission to sift peter like wheat but I didn't get the impression that you thought that was allegory too but just that you had no idea what to really do with it or how to fit it in.

You know, you never stated that you felt God was being blamed in an indirect manner...I would have definitely asked you to explain how so I could maybe have seen what you were seeing! You may have been thinking it, but you actually never stated it. I have often felt that others had something a little bit twisted up but not that they were literally trying to twist it up but that they didn't realize one of their thoughts warred with another of their thoughts. I have a small knack for seeing where thoughts aren't matching or are contradicting one another and can lay it out logically, but I don't see it so easily when it is my own mind that has a wrinkle like that. But it helps to know that when you were saying others were saying God does evil, you didn't mean it literally but felt they were indirectly saying it somehow.

I see your third paragraph relating to what you said earlier, that satans accusation was God heavily protected Job but let something that was unpleasant or hard come and watch if he still accepted it and didn't complain. But Job didn't. He accepted the things that were unpleasant and hard and said he accepted the pleasant and accepted the hard too and didn't sin with his lips. Shall we receive good/pleasant from His hand and not accept evil/hard/distasteful from His hands? And it says Job did not sin by saying it.

You have a problem with satan needing to ask permission (as with Job and Peter) and with God giving it while carefully placing limits, but you don't have a problem with the thought that God has already given permission if He allows evil to buffet anyone by not putting an end to it immediately but instead somewhere in the future? Did I get that right?

In your next paragraph, I can agree that Job knew pretty well what he had been taught about God but not that he knew God well because in the end he says, before I'd only heard about You but now I've met You!

You're last paragraph - did satan have to ask permission for what Josephs brothers did to him is an interesting question. Satan didn't directly attack Joseph as with Job, where it was satan himself who brought the whirlwind that collapsed houses, and I do believe he needed permission for that because satan doesn't control the weather - God does. (Unless He gives permission for satan to bring a whirlwind, I don't believe satan is allowed to bring one...but God gave permission - do what you want, only don't touch Job with whatever you do). But it was flesh and blood men who did evil to Joseph so...no, I'm guessing satan didn't need permission. Just a guess there though. It only states him asking permission in two places in the bible that I know of, Job and Peter.

All good thoughts, PB. Hard stuff, but intriguing too, you know?

 

[Magenta]

Not all are receptive to God, this is not a failure on the part of God but man. He has made the Way, will men believe and become reconciled? Will they repent? The liberty God has granted to man is not a sign of weakness, but of sincerity. We love Him because He first loved us. It is reciprocity at work. Yet, there are those who do not believe, refuse to believe, and are at odds with God. This is the will of God, not that they should be condemned, but that they should not be slaves.

People act as if salvation is an ultimatum of choice, instead of circumstance. It isn't like "choose me or die", but rather "you're dying, choose me." Jesus came not to condemn the world but save it, because the world is already condemned (they are outside of Christ). God has made salvation available, the means by which His desire gets fulfilled. Again though, He isn't a tyrant. Repentance is necessary.

Yes, repentance is necessary, but I think you missed the point that it is believers who say God is weak if He cannot get what He wants, which is why they reject the Scripture that says Jesus died not just for our sins (believers) but for the sins of the whole world, as well as the verse where we are told that God desires for everyone to come to repentance, and a knowledge of truth, that they may be saved. Their Calvinistic view is that "all" and "the whole world" only applies to certain people, not "all" and "the whole world."

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I am better off knowing that evil in the world is allowed because that is how God set it up . . . Satan is a free agent to seek and devour whom he wants . . . He set it up for Satan to "strike his (Jesus') heel" and today, the body of believers are still being struck (so to speak) until Christ returns and "crushes Satan's head" . . . I know the outcome, I know that evil exists . . . but Satan going to God to ask permission before he touches a child of His - nope, don't see it. Evil never brings me comfort - the comfort only comes with knowing - Joy comes in the morning.

The ONLY reason God had this conversation with Satan was to show Satan that Job didn't just love and reverence Him because of what God had given him. And that is how it turned out, Satan's "fiery darts" did not turn Job and make him curse God and die - He persevered through it all - because when God is for us WHO can be against us - Job ran the race and he ran it well. The OT is written for our learning - For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope. -

So the first two chapters of Job set up as an allegory (sort of like a parable - set up to teach a moral lesson) open up to us that Satan is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, that it rains on the just and the unjust alike, the great stance of a righteous man of God who endured.

God used Satan to "try" Job's faith - He already knew Job was a perfect and upright man - why "try" him?

Oh now, yeah, I had no intention of sounding like evil gives me joy! It was not even a thought! I get comfort in knowing that He works all things for our good, but I DO NOT like being attacked at ALL. Gives me zero joy. The joy comes from my amazement at seeing God work it for my good. It has shocked me quite a few times when I saw someone intend nasty for me and God make it good for me.

Why would God test Jobs trust? Hmm...to grow it or, if it needs zero growth, (which I don't think can be said of ANYONE) then to prove it. Perhaps more for our own joy than because He doesn't know if our faith is strong or not or needs strengthening in some areas. At least for me, it's a joyful thing to find that I am victorious/steadfast in trust in an area where before I failed in trust. To see myself running my race of trust and not stumbling over certain things I used to is a great joy.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

PB, I looked back over your original post and I think we sort of inadvertently covered all your points. I'm glad we took the time to do this. I certainly do not think you have any evil or heretical notions about God, but then, I never did think you did. And I hope you don't think I have any evil or heretical notions about Him either now that we've discussed it.

Our brains may work through problems a little differently but that's okay! We have largely arrived at roughly the same place at the end of our grappling. I'm certainly not going to state that 2+1 doesn't equal 3 just because I add 1+1+1 to arrive there and you arrive there by 2+1! The end result is basically the same answer.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I believe we could discuss freewill in the same open and honest manner that we've dealt with the "problem of evil" as Maxwell puts it, and that we would have the same sort of result where we would come to the realization that we were quite close in the end but just did the math a little differently. But my brain might explode if I started the discussion right now. And you may not even want to get into it. It's just that it is extremely hard to find one person who doesn't get cranked up and agitated and grumpy in an exercise like this. You're rare in that way.

You committed your time to this today when I'm sure you have lots to get done, but I appreciate it and I think we did well.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

A good deal of this subject matter is related to Job.

God does not cause evil but man is inherently evil. Man is a natural rebel against the goodness of God.

How can man recapture the innocence he lost in the garden?

God is sovereign and His goodness is proven in that He has overcome evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I agree with this Roger. I think some people balk at the statement that we're born inherently evil when we are born not yet having done one good or one evil(sinful) thing. Some state it more as we are born having inherited a sin nature from our parents, a disease of inheritance that we can't escape because it's in our...dna. I think they have a problem with saying a baby is born inherently evil, but they can accept saying that a baby is born with a sin nature.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Problem:

a) Some people are emphasising the goodness of God so much that they derogate His power or all-knowing (arminians).

b) Some people are emphasising the power of God so much that they derogate His goodness (calvinists).

Solution:

The only correct view is to merge both (God´s goodness and God´s power).

The outcome is the goal of everything, nothing is happening randomly. Everything temporal has a meaning and will lead into the best possible eternity.

This was the only post I already commented on. I think it's superb and you managed it with few words. I wish I was capable of getting my points across without 5,000 words. I really admire it. There are a few of you in here who are extremely gifted at it!

I agree the outcome is the goal. Wisdom is shown to be right by her results. Think that's in...proverbs...

And I agree that in my life, nothing happens randomly and I am not at the whims of chance. Others say, there are no coincidences in the lives of the Kings children. It may merely seem so at times.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

A good deal of this subject matter is related to Job.

God does not cause evil but man is inherently evil. Man is a natural rebel against the goodness of God.

How can man recapture the innocence he lost in the garden?

God is sovereign and His goodness is proven in that He has overcome evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And noticed that your rep power was at 198 and wanted to be the one who took it to 200. Now when you rep anyone, they will get two points instead of one.

 

[Magenta]

Problem:

a) Some people are emphasising the ​

goodness

of God so much that they derogate His power or all-knowing (arminians).

​

b

) Some people are emphasising the ​

power

of God so much that they derogate His goodness (calvinists).

​

Solution:

The only correct view is to merge both (God´s goodness and God´s power).

The ​

outcome

is the goal of everything, nothing is happening randomly. Everything temporal has a meaning and will lead into the best possible eternity.​

Hello, Trofimus; here we are again

Could you please clarify b above? That seems to be a major point of contention Could you also clarify what you said previously about evil rising when God removes or lowers His hedge of goodness? Do you mean that when the hedge is lowered/removed, that Satan is then allowed greater access to tempt us to sin? Isn't it true that Job did not sin when God removed the hedge from around him?

I have not seen anyone say God is not omniscient. Does knowing the end from the beginning mean He causes everything to happen in between the end and the beginning? I think some people maybe confuse God's permissive will with His sovereign will, as if He would violate His own moral will. Saying God ordains or decrees everything heavily suggests He is he author of evil (which is what others object to), not just that He allows it, and that all will be worked to the good for those who love Him regardless of evil.
​

 

[Magenta]

And noticed that your rep power was at 198 and wanted to be the one who took it to 200. Now when you rep anyone, they will get two points instead of one.

At 198, 2 points are most likely any ways, unless the person was at a hundred count plus one.