The Rapture

Endoscopy · May 12, 2018

To Roadkill,

We are just about half way through May and though there is going to be a celebration of Israel's seventieth anniversary as a nation, as well as the ceremony for the moving of the American embassy recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, there has not been a single word said regarding a ground breaking ceremony for the temple. The building of temple being a monumental event, surely would have been announced even up to a year prior to the actual event taking place. Yet, here we are in the middle of May and not a word has been said. This undertaking is something that the whole world would know about way before the actual event took place. It would have been an event that would have been well known and anticipated prior to the actual day of the event and not just a last minute announcement.

You have claimed to have received information from a so-called angel of God proclaiming a specific month in which the ground breaking for the temple would take place, which if true must take place, because what God says He will perform and He cannot lie. Therefore, since we have not yet heard anything regarding this event, which the world should have known about well before this time, then this angelic being cannot be from God, regardless of your testing of him.

I would suggest repentance of this false claim, because it makes you a false prophet and go to the throne of grace, because you have obviously been deceived by the powers of darkness. I would also break off all communication with this so-called angel, because he was obviously not sent by God, which means that any information that he has given to you cannot be trusted, including the information regarding the gathering of the church being a three day event.

They have done an archeological dig and found the original site of the temple. They found the only spring in the area which is required. There is the alter to sacrifice the anamals on with a channel in the floor for the blood to drain away. There is a hole in the corner of the wall near it so animals can be tied there.

Second Temple Location
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Rmk6_bIDMM

I get tired of links working intermittently. When will this be fixed and keep working!!!

abcdef · May 12, 2018

tanakh said:

Brother tanakh,

It doesn't matter if they build a temple or not build one. The building will not contain the glory of God as the buildings before it. So it won't matter if it is desecrated or not.

The glory of God is within us, we are the temple of God in the kingdom/church.

But, it doesn't look like they will get it built before they are destroyed by Iran and it's allies. But maybe they will, it doesn't matter either way.

tanakh · May 12, 2018

abcdef said:

You are right in saying that we are the temple of God. All those in Christ are part of the kingdom. With regard to a Temple being built one couldn't be desecrated because it would be an abomination

PlainWord · May 12, 2018

Endoscopy said:

I don't reject what Christ said. I accept it as Gospel. I reject your futurist view of a futurist fulfillment and accept that He returned to THAT generation LIKE HE SAID HE WOULD!!! Read the companion passage of Rev 1:7. What does it say?

Here are both passages in the YLT (the most accurate of all transliterations) because it is literally the translation into English. Here also is the original question as posed by the disciples:

Mat 24:3

And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

Mat 24:30

and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;

Rev 1:7

Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

Thus, the question was about when Christ's PRESENCE would return at the end of their age (70 AD). They did not anticipate Him coming back literally to earth to walk around and run from some earthly temple. When you look at Mt 24:30 and Rev 1:7 you understand that it is the "tribes of the land" (or Earth) that see Him and mourn. This would be the tribes of Israel. Rev 1:7 adds that EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM, would see His presence return. The religious leaders of the day pierced Him. For them to see Him, He would have to return to their generation, JUST AS HE FREAKIN SAID HE WOULD!! Just as He threatened them that He would.

Just who do you think the "you" is in the below? Some freckled nose 21st century kid cooking pizza's in Italy or those responsible for rejecting and killing their Messiah?

Mat 26:

Jesus saith to him, `Thou hast said; nevertheless I say to you, hereafter ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the power, and coming upon the clouds, of the heaven.'

Did they see or was Christ wrong??!!

Now look at Mat 23. It's all about the pending destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. This passage is right before Mat 24. Look at the context.

Mat 23:36-39 (truncated for effect):

verily I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.

Lo, left desolate to you is your house

for I say to you, ye may not see me henceforth, till ye may say, Blessed [is] he who is coming in the name of the Lord.'

Where they around for the return of His presence to punish them or not????

I'm sorry you cannot see this Brother End as your eyes are closed and you've been lied to so long that you cannot overcome your internal biases.

PlainWord · May 12, 2018

abcdef said:

They won't be getting destroyed by Iran as long as Trump is around. It would take another Obama to turn his back on Israel and even then, Iran can not beat Israel in a one-on-one battle. They would need Russia, China, Pakistan or a combination of them to be defeated. The IDF is the strongest and most advanced military in the region. They decimated Iran's bases in Syria in a single night and Iran didn't lay a glove on them.

The fact is, "Gog and Magog," might not come to Israel at all. I liked the first two paragraphs of your post though.

abcdef · May 12, 2018

PlainWord said:

Imagination. Trump is loyal to Trump and nobody else. Don't forget the GOP has factions that hate Israel. It takes time for the swamp slime to come to the surface. They are there, just behind the propaganda.

You might be right on this issue. When Trump is gone, there could be a isolationist backlash against Israel. When the far right self righteous haters take control.

Yea, but. Are we counting our troops and weapons instead of relying on faith, or what the Bible says?

Everybody is certain that Israel will not fall. But there are presently 150,000 rockets in Lebanon alone aimed at Israel.

Don't just look at the present situation and say that it is all that it will ever be. What about in 7 years when there are a million rockets aimed at Israel? And the whole world abandons Israel for various reasons.

Magog has Jerusalem surrounded right now. It's only a matter of time until Jerusalem falls.

Endoscopy · May 12, 2018

abcdef said:

The problem is the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place must be in the temple holy place.

Endoscopy · May 12, 2018

abcdef said:

Imagination. Trump is loyal to Trump and nobody else. Don't forget the GOP has factions that hate Israel. It takes time for the swamp slime to come to the surface. They are there, just behind the propaganda.

You might be right on this issue. When Trump is gone, there could be a isolationist backlash against Israel. When the far right self righteous haters take control.

Yea, but. Are we counting our troops and weapons instead of relying on faith, or what the Bible says?

Everybody is certain that Israel will not fall. But there are presently 150,000 rockets in Lebanon alone aimed at Israel.

Don't just look at the present situation and say that it is all that it will ever be. What about in 7 years when there are a million rockets aimed at Israel? And the whole world abandons Israel for various reasons.

Magog has Jerusalem surrounded right now. It's only a matter of time until Jerusalem falls.

Your far leftwing progressive bias is showing through with your view of Trump and conservatives.

PlainWord · May 13, 2018

abcdef said:

Who knows? There are no future predictions concerning Jerusalem. There was nothing to tell us Israel would reform as a nation either, following their desolation in 70 AD. Nothing about Hitler. Nothing about WWI or WW2 or WW3 for that matter. All future events are pure speculation. The only thing we have to go on is how God has dealt with us in the past.

PlainWord · May 13, 2018

Endoscopy said:

And so it was. Will it again? Who knows. First there needs to be a new temple built. Any new temple would not be considered holy as any sacrifices would not be acceptable unto God. His Son was our sacrifice and the blood of animals will never replace or trump His Son's redemptive work.

Anyway, Jesus was talking about first century events as I proved conclusively in post 9584 which you totally ignored.

PlainWord · May 13, 2018

End,

It's interesting that you didn't even attempt to address any of my points. Likely because you can't so you fall back on your same deeply flawed arguments.

I'm pretty sure I explained this to you several times now. But, here goes again. Mat 24:30 is not discussing the entire planet earth witnessing the return of Christ, the literal translation is the "tribes of the Land" which has always been taken to mean, "the tribes of Israel." You have to look at the literal translation and use the companion passage from Rev 1:7 which I'm sure you agree matches Mat 24:30??

Rev 1:7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory

Keep in mind that Jews from all over the Roman empire returned to Jerusalem for the Passover, that's why all where there to witness Christ's return. Why would the entire planet mourn if Christ's presence were to return in our future? The 1/3 of us who believe in God and His Son would rejoice. You say Christ's presence returning was not recorded in history, but you are wrong. It indeed was recorded and here it is again:

1) The sign of the Son of Man in Heaven. What was His sign? It was a sword-shaped star. Remember, a sword cometh out of His mouth (Rev 19:15). Here's this event recorded in history:

Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. - Josephus "War of the Jews" 6-5-3.

2) In Mat 24:27 Jesus tells us exactly what His presence return will look like so that all can recognize that His presence had returned. Again, from the YLT:

for as the lightning doth come forth from the east, and doth appear unto the west, so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man.

Therefore, they should expect to see lightening, not a man-like figure returning slowly as you suppose. This lightening was recorded in history. Describing this event, Tacitus writes,

"In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightening flash from the clouds lit up the temple."

Notice that according to Tacitus, lightening from the clouds marked what appears to be the presence of Christ coming on the clouds (Mat 24:29-30). This same sign was present when the Lord destroyed Egypt (Ezek 32).

To suggest the presence of the Lord would not return for the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD shows a complete lack of knowledge of how God's divine punishment in the OT took place. Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple and desolation of Jerusalem throughout the Gospels. This was to happen at the end of the ages, NOT the whole planet earth. It isn't how we view it, it's how they viewed it because it was their language and figures of speech being used.

Josephus recognized that he was in the "end of the age" in 70 AD as he says this:

But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages. Josephus "War" 6-4-5

PlainWord · May 13, 2018

Endoscopy said:

You are the one rejecting Christ's words, not me. What generation is Christ speaking about here in Mat 23?

[SUP]33 [/SUP]`Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

[SUP]34 [/SUP]`Because of this, lo, I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes, and of them ye will kill and crucify, and of them ye will scourge in your synagogues, and will pursue from city to city;

[SUP]35 [/SUP]that on you may come all the righteous blood being poured out on the earth from the blood of Abel the righteous, unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar:

[SUP]36 [/SUP]verily I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]`Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will.

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Lo, left desolate to you is your house

Was He speaking to their generation or some generation thousands of years into His future, yet still future to us? Just answer this one question honestly. In the above highlighted passage given the full context of the passage, give me an answer.

[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

Endoscopy · May 13, 2018

PlainWord said:

There was a prophecy that Israel would be reborn in 1 day. It happened in 1947. They were immediately attacked by the surrounding Muslims who vowed to drive them into the sea and kill them there. The Muslims lost. After losing a few more times they went to terrorist attacks. They are losing there in Israel as well. Your ignorance of prophcies causes you to make incorrect posts.

Endoscopy · May 13, 2018

PlainWord said:

I repost this that contradicts what you say. Notice the highlighted verse. The AMPC gives greater detail by stating the different definitions of the original language word. Take note of the text in the parenthecies. That refutes your assertion about when it took place. Of course you will ignore this since it doesn't fit your emotion driven beliefs. Those are more important than facts to you.

Matthew 24 AMPC

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].
31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the universe to the other.
32 From the fig tree learn this lesson: as soon as its young shoots become soft and tender and it puts out its leaves, you know of a surety that summer is near.
33 So also when you see these signs, all taken together, coming to pass, you may know of a surety that He is near, at the very doors.
34 Truly I tell you, this generation (the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period) will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.
35 Sky and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

PlainWord · May 13, 2018

Endoscopy said:

Can I assume from your lack of a direct answer to my question concerning Mat 23, that you believe Jesus was speaking about our generation or perhaps a generation some time after ours?

Did our generation kill and crucify the prophets?
Did we pursue them from town to town?
Do we all live in Jerusalem?
Do we have a house about to become desolate?
Are there any prophets living today?

I don't have emotion driven beliefs. This describes you. I have fact driven beliefs. The truth is the generation Jesus was speaking to in Mat 23 is the same one He is talking about in Mat 24. History shows that within 37-40 years (depending on the year of the Cross) EVERYTHING He said in both passages took place within that 40 year period, including the return of His presence as I have clearly shown in the historical record.

abcdef · May 13, 2018

PlainWord said:

I agree.

I agree

I agree with you that the #1 resurrection and the dest of Jeru, the fleeing, were 40 years apart approx..

Where we disagree is how long the entire time of the "fleeing" period was. You say that Israel was in the wilderness only for 3 1/2 years, then at the end of that time, what happened? Did Israel return from the wilderness to Jerusalem? No, at the end of 3 1/2 years, they were still in the wilderness of the gentile nations. So it is impossible that Israel returned at the end of the 3 1/2 years. Sure they stayed in Pella or what ever, but the 3 1/2 times is showing that at the end of the time in the wilderness, they return to Jerusalem.

So the time of the fleeing that history now shows us, was 1900 years and not 3 1/2 years.

And at the end of that time did they return from the wilderness of the gentile nations? No.

The 3 1/2 times are not 3 1/2 years.

The 7 times are the same time period as the statue in Daniel 2.

The angel in Dan. 12, says that it is 3 1/2 times from the Babylon captivity until the scattering of 70 ad.

The second 3 1/2 times is from 70 ad until 1967.

The completes the time of Daniels statue in ch 2.

The wild branches that remained within reach of Rome after Israel fled to the wilderness.

Brother, you are trying so hard to make the 7th trumpet the dest of 70 ad. But the scriptures cannot be broken, Rev 11:12 "and their enemies beheld them."

When the 7th trumpet blows it the end of this universe and planet.

Was there an earthquake where a tenth of the city fell and 7000 were killed? Rev 11:12

The number 1/3 is symbolic of division. It is seen in Ezek 5:2.

1/3 were taken (as slaves), 1/3 were left behind (dead), and 1/3 were scattered (fleeing).

The imagery shows a "scattering" of power, or a dividing of power.

But in this context of the trumpets, it appears that even though the imagery seems to fit the 70 ad destruction, I'm going with the present Jerusalem restored.

For one thing, the 200 mill army could not exist at that time.

Second, the 2 W's are not literally 2 men. They represent the people of Israel, restored to Jerusalem. They are symbolic, in a symbolic passage.

But the battle remains.

His coming is His presence, they are the same thing. You say that He came in His presence at the dest of Jerusalem, right?

Now look at the YLT:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
[SUP]24 [/SUP]then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --[SUP]25 [/SUP]for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --

[SUP]26 [/SUP]the last enemy is done away -- death

1. #1 resurrection....... Jesus and the OT saints

2. #2 resurrection........At the coming of His presence (better?)..... Not the 70 ad coming. 1 Cor 15:5-8, His presence was many times, but they were not a resurrection presence.

3. The end.......When death is the LAST enemy to be defeated.

Same thing, But the 70 ad presence was not a resur presence, that is yet to come.

When death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, is that the end of them or just rendering them useless?

If Jesus' death, ended death in 33 ad., then it wasn't 70 ad.

Spiritual death was given the blow to the head at the cross, but spiritual death still exists, and so does physical death, so death is not ended.

Christians still die.

[/QUOTE] Either Hades still has power over us or it doesn't. Which is it?

[/QUOTE]

We still die a physical death. But nothing can separate us from the love of God. The Holy Spirit is God in us, so we cannot die to Jesus as long as the Holy Spirit is alive in us.

abcdef · May 13, 2018

Endoscopy said:

Brother Endoscopy,

The day that Israel was reborn was the day of Pentecost when the kingdom came to Israel.

PlainWord · May 13, 2018

A-F,

Glad we have some agreement, a lot actually. Our main difference is you take half of Mat 24 and place it in the first century then the other half to 1948 or yet future. Nowhere is a gap taught or even hinted at. You don't buy the gap in Dan 9, so why are you putting one in Mat 24? Let me address some of your points where we still disagree.

Let's discuss the time length of the fleeing and this notion you have of a return to Jer. I'm using the YLT more and more:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]and there were given to the woman two wings of the great eagle, that she may fly to the wilderness, to her place, where she is nourished a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

I see no mention of a return to Jer, do you? In fact the fleeing is from the dragon (Rome) for protection during the War of the Jews. So she fled for protection and there is no mention of a return to Jer because after the war was over, there was no Jer to return to.

Perhaps you aren't picking up on the significance of the "eagles wings?" Before I explain, remember, the Woman of Rev 12 is the real Israel, those who accepted Christ. This is a new concept, the severing of Israel into two pieces, saved and unsaved, or wheat and tares. They are identical in every way except in their heart.

According to Josephus, before the rebellion and the start of the war, these Jewish Christians heard a divine voice that told them to leave. They fled Jerusalem after the feast of Pentecost on the 21st of Jyar (or Iyar) in 66 AD. This would have been around Apr-May 66 AD. The Zealots revolted in August that same year and they took over Masada. Nero sent Cestius Gallus in Oct-Nov 66 AD to put down the rebellion. The Jews defeated Cestius and his 12th Legion. Nero ordered Vespasian to then go and put down the seditious.

Vespasian's campaign last two years. He subdues western and northern Israel and briefly surrounds Jer in Dec 69 AD. Vespasian returns to Rome to take the crown following a brief civil war after Nero's death in 68 AD. He sends his son, Titus, to finish the War. Titus arrives and starts surrounding Jerusalem in Apr 70 AD. The temple is destroyed in Sep 70 AD. After a month or two of mopping up, Titus and most of his Roman armies leave. Once gone, Rome is no longer a threat to the Jewish Christians dwelling in Pella.

So, do the math.

April-May 66 AD (Woman flees for protection)
Sep - Nov 70 AD (Israel defeated, Roman armies leave)

I count just about 3.5 years.

Now here is the part about the wings of the eagles. See Exodus 19, a happier time.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye -- ye have seen that which I have done to the Egyptians, and I bear you on eagles' wings, and bring you in unto Myself.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]`And now, if ye really hearken to My voice, then ye have kept My covenant, and been to Me a peculiar treasure more than all the peoples, for all the earth [is] Mine;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]and ye -- ye are to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation: these [are] the words which thou dost speak unto the sons of Israel.'
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And Moses cometh, and calleth for the elders of the people, and setteth before them all these words which Jehovah hath commanded him;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]and all the people answer together and say, `All that Jehovah hath spoken we do;' and Moses returneth the words of the people unto Jehovah.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Lo, I am coming unto thee in the thickness of the cloud, so that the people hear in My speaking with thee, and also believe in thee to the age;' and Moses declareth the words of the people unto Jehovah.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Go unto the people; and thou hast sanctified them to-day and to-morrow, and they have washed their garments,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and have been prepared for the third day; for on the third day doth Jehovah come down before the eyes of all the people, on mount Sinai.

WOW. So my take away from this is God made a new covenant with the real Israel, the believing Israel who He led to safety in Pella. Not only were they safe, but they were also nourished (spiritually fed). Notice in the above that God literally CAME DOWN IN THE THICKNESS OF A CLOUD (sound familiar) in the site of the whole country (sound familiar)?

After this, the WOMAN planted churches all over the Transjordan, Syria and beyond. There is so much more to this if you are at all interested???

Endoscopy · May 13, 2018

PlainWord said:

It is obvious to the casual observer that you ignored the highlighted verse speaking for me. Why is that? Again you put your emotion driven beliefs over the words of Bible. In Revelation there will come a time when you prophets of God will be killed and the earth will rejoice seeing their bodies lay in the streets for days. Oh gee how could this happen before today with modern communications. Go peddle your non Biblical thesis elsewhere!!

Ahwatukee · May 13, 2018

tanakh said:

Tanakh,

It is because you don't understand the prophecy. In the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, a decree was pronounced upon Israel and Jerusalem of seventy 'sevens" i.e. seventy sets of seven year periods. These where divided into three parts:

7 sevens = to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Read Nehemiah)

62 sevens = totaling 69 sevens, at the end of which the Messiah was cut off i.e. Christ crucified

69 of the seven sets of years has been completed when Christ was crucified. At that time, God put a pause on the last seven years to be fulfilled and began to build His church. The fulfillment of that last seven will take place in conjunction with the end of the age leading up to Christ's return to the earth.

But prior to God fulfilling that last seven years with Israel and according to His promise, God is going to gather His church from the earth. Once the church has been gathered, God will then pick up right where He left off with Israel in fulfillment of that last seven years, complete with temple and sacrifices. Sometime after the church has been gathered, that antichrist will be revealed and will make his seven year covenant allowing Israel to build her temple. Regarding the decree of Dan.9:24, It is at this time that God will " finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

It is during this seven years that God will also be pouring out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as revealed in Dan.2:31-46 where the Gentile nations symbolically represented by Nebuchadnezzar's statue is smashed to pieces without leaving a trace, i.e. the end of all human government and the establishing of the Lords.

God had the temple destroyed so that it would be rebuilt in fulfillment of that last seven years in conjunction with the end of the age. It is going to require the revealing of that antichrist who will appease Islam making it possible for Israel to build her temple. It is by God's design that after the 6 day war the control of the temple mount was relinquished to the Waqf (Islam) so that Israel would not build her temple before the proper time.

God has unfinished prophecy with Israel. He has not abandoned her, as many believe. The church has not replaced Israel but is a separate dispensation from the church.

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