Does God Sever Fellowship With Us When We Sin?

[joaniemarie]

We overcome the longings of the flesh by the riches of His grace.

Faith is being persuaded what God says is true, faith is the vehicle by which we draw from the Living Water, Jesus is always the object of our faith.

We are told to go to His grace and draw.

And here's another thing to consider. We cannot fight the flesh with the flesh. The flesh has a morality that is fleshly. It is prideful and it does all things for it's own glory. Even when it obeys it does so out of selfish motives. No wonder Paul cried out;

WHO SHALL DELIVER ME FROM THE BODY OF THIS DEATH!!!!!?????? Rom.7:24 We can't fight flesh with flesh. We are called to walk IN THE SPIRIT.

The reason we have this battle is because we are not understanding how this walking in the spirit is accomplished..., and are experienceing what Paul WAS experiencing as he was trying to do it by the flesh and by the will power of the flesh.

He found it to be an impossible MESS. What he so desired to do he was not able to IN HIS FLESH. The flesh cannot be directed by the flesh UNTO GOOD WORKS. We are born again saved UNTO GOOD WORKS.

Notice Paul understood that it was "NO LONGER I WHO DO IT BUT THE SIN PRINCIPLE THAT IS IN ME...." (the flesh) The flesh is present but it is not in control. We must learn as Paul learned how to MASTER IT. How do we do that? By walking in the spirit by the Spirit.


I love to talk about this because it reflects again that the battle is won IN Christ. He has already defeated every enemy. Now we walk out FROM VICTORY..... We do not fight FOR VICTORY. Jesus already defeated the enemy. Now we walk OUT what Christ has WORKED IN.

We are now MORE THAN CONQUERORS THROUGH CHRIST!!!!


[SUP]15 [/SUP]For I do not understand my own actions [I am baffled, bewildered]. I do not practice or accomplish what I wish, but I do the very thing that I loathe [[SUP][a][/SUP]which my moral instinct condemns].
[SUP]

16 [/SUP]Now if I do [habitually] what is contrary to my desire, [that means that] I acknowledge and agree that the Law is good (morally excellent) and that I take sides with it.
[SUP]

17 [/SUP]However, it is no longer I who do the deed, but the sin [principle] which is at home in me and has possession of me.
[SUP]

18 [/SUP]For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot perform it. [I have the intention and urge to do what is right, but no power to carry it out.]
[SUP]

19 [/SUP]For I fail to practice the good deeds I desire to do, but the evil deeds that I do not desire to do are what I am [ever] doing.
[SUP]

20 [/SUP]Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I doing it [it is not myself that acts], but the sin [principle] which dwells within me [[SUP][b][/SUP]fixed and operating in my soul].
[SUP]

21 [/SUP]So I find it to be a law (rule of action of my being) that when I want to do what is right and good, evil is ever present with me and I am subject to its insistent demands.
[SUP]

22 [/SUP]For I endorse and delight in the Law of God in my inmost self [with my new nature].
[SUP]

23 [/SUP]But I discern in my bodily members [[SUP][c][/SUP]in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh] a different law (rule of action) at war against the law of my mind (my reason) and making me a prisoner to the law of sin that dwells in my bodily organs [[SUP][d][/SUP]in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh].
[SUP]

24 [/SUP]O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will release and deliver me from [the shackles of] this body of death?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]O thank God! [He will!] through Jesus Christ (the Anointed One) our Lord! So then indeed I, of myself with the mind and heart, serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Limey410v2]

That"s right it is impossible to be Born Again.... Again.

We are only born again once.

To try and do so, like the Hebrews, means that the one sacrifice was not enough and they are trying to crucify Jesus again, which put Jesus and His work to open shame saying His death was insufficient to save from all sin.

This whole passage actually confirms we are secure in Christ once we are born again in Him which is eternal

So can I say busted now?

Amen. This verse is always misrepresented. You can point to many verses that support eternal salvation, yet those that chose to deny it always point to this verse to try and prove the point that salvation can be lost. Its shameful at best.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We overcome the longings of the flesh by the riches of His grace..

Where does it say that? Faith is what overcomes.

For every [one] being born by God overcomes the world; and this is the victory overcoming the world -- our faith. 1 John 5:4. 1 John 5:4

And they overcame him through the blood of the lamb, and through the word of their witness, and they loved not their life until death. Revelation 12:11​

 

[UnderGrace]

In this verse he talking about being born again, when we are born again we have victory, it is saving faith ..but the object of our faith is always Jesus. This event, being born again, is a one time event, not an ongoing process.

As I said right faith, in Jesus, is the vehicle, the instrument, but it is His grace that saves.
These verses affirm this very truth.

Where does it say that? Faith is what overcomes.

For every [one] being born by God overcomes the world; and this is the victory overcoming the world -- our faith. 1 John 5:4. 1 John 5:4

And they overcame him through the blood of the lamb, and through the word of their witness, and they loved not their life until death. Revelation 12:11​

 

[joaniemarie]

That"s right it is impossible to be Born Again.... Again.

We are only born again once.

To try and do so, like the Hebrews, means that the one sacrifice was not enough and they are trying to crucify Jesus again, which put Jesus and His work to open shame saying His death was insufficient to save from all sin.

This whole passage actually confirms we are secure in Christ once we are born again in Him which is eternal

So can I say busted now?

Amen UnderGrace., And this should really hit us all who study the Bible like a sledge hammer. What we were once taught and what once sounded so obvious to us and others we know and love and respect..... might have worked for a while (in a way).... but was in truth; WRONG.

The question is how willing are we to put aside our old ways of learning?? Can we accept that we and our family or our best loved pastors and teachers or our favorite Bible commentaries were wrong?? Can we even FATHOM that to BE A POSSIBILITY?????

It can for sure be a scary thing at first but walking in the truth directed by the Holy Spirit will NEVER LEAD US ASTRAY. He always rewards faith and trust. And actually it is what He has been calling us to all along. It takes some of us a while to finally start listening.

Time is really only something us humans are stuck in. Even though in years past I walked in some Christian belief systems that were wrong it was only for a "time" The truth of God is free and open to all believers who want it. Walking in the spirit led by the Spirit is freedom, peace and joy.

And then the way to tell if what we are learning IS the truth?.... We will have been learning about the fruits of what the presence of the Holy Spirit brings. One major one is PEACE. A peace that really does pass human understanding and reason.

And then also reading what the Bible says about the Fruit of the Spirit vs the flesh. (notice there is no fruit of the flesh)
Gal.5:16-26 shows pretty clearly the differences that come from an inward changing of our heart attitudes from the Spirit.


Anger is no longer a comfortable friend. Rage and jealousy is no longer something we lean on to get us through. 1 Cor.13 is DOABLE because it's an outworking of being led by the Spirit. His Spirit witnessing to our spirit. (not our flesh)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).
[SUP]

17 [/SUP]For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.
[SUP]

18 [/SUP]But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.
[SUP]

19 [/SUP]Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,
[SUP]

20 [/SUP]Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
[SUP]

21 [/SUP]Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]

22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,
[SUP]

23 [/SUP]Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [[SUP][a][/SUP]that can bring a charge].
[SUP]

24 [/SUP]And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.
[SUP]

25 [/SUP]If we live by the [Holy] Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [If by the Holy Spirit [SUP][b][/SUP]we have our life in God, let us go forward [SUP][c][/SUP]walking in line, our conduct controlled by the Spirit.]
[SUP]

26 [/SUP]Let us not become vainglorious and self-conceited, competitive and challenging and provoking and irritating to one another, envying and being jealous of one another.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I feel distanced from God when I sin.

sounds like self condemnation.

 

[joaniemarie]

This is a profound point, because so many times we take how we, as imperfect people, relate with other people, be it with family, friends, co-workers, strangers . . . and apply that to how we think God relates to mankind personally, corporately, and familially (with those of us who are in Christ and the adopted of God).

In doing so we err, because of our flawed perceptions, dysfunctional pasts (and in many cases present), and then assume that God would relate to/with others as we would.

He doesn't. In Isaiah when God is telling us that His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and His ways higher than our ways (see Isaiah 55), that phrase, in context, is speaking of the New Covenant, and in Isaiah 54, God talks about how He will never be angry with us again (again, context is pointing to the New Covenant in Christ):

4“Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame.
Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated.
You will forget the shame of your youth
and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.
5For your Maker is your husband—
the Lord Almighty is his name—
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer;
he is called the God of all the earth.
6The Lord will call you back
as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit—
a wife who married young,
only to be rejected,” says your God.
7“For a brief moment I abandoned you,
but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
8In a surge of anger
I hid my face from you for a moment,
but with everlasting kindness
I will have compassion on you,”
says the Lord your Redeemer.

9“To me this is like the days of Noah,
when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth.
So now I have sworn not to be angry with you,
never to rebuke you again.
10Though the mountains be shaken
and the hills be removed,
yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken
nor my covenant of peace be removed,”
says the Lord, who has compassion on you.




-JGIG​

Exactly JGIG., and this ties into the way the Holy Spirit changes our thinking by pointing us to Jesus. We have the mind of Christ but many of us don't use it and grow up in Him. So stuck we are in our old "stinking thinking"

If we want to know how God sees us., we need to see Jesus. It always goes back to Jesus. He is the clear evidence of the Father.

If there is something in the Bible we don't yet understand., we can know by seeing Jesus that God is always GRACIOUS and because of Jesus bringing His grace and truth., God always loves us and is always looking out for us.

He will never forsake us or turn His back on us in disgust. People will do that. Even WE WILL DO THAT TO PEOPLE. But God will never do that. All because of JESUS.

And as we are in the class room of learning about Jesus.,, we will learn to love others the way HE has loved us. That is the way it works. We can't love others until we learn how we are loved by Him. And He does it UNCONDITIONALLY now because of Jesus.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

No. But those who continue to live in sin fall away from God.

So do you feel that those who have been saved can change their position In CHRIST by what they do In the flesh?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I feel distanced from God when I sin.

Yes I feel the same but that is my guilt and shame that I have focused on and not who I am in Christ,

These are emotions not reality, fellowship is spiritual not emotional.

Amen and Amen.

 

[Lewiz]

Whoever told you that is VERY confused. It sounds like a hybrid between Catholicism and Christianity. The Bible simply states that we can be punished on earth for our sins, NOT that we lose fellowship, leave his Grace, or anything else. I'd suggest asking the next person that tells you that to substantiate their argument with scripture. I guarantee you that they will not be able to.

I have a feeling nobody said that.

It may be his "interpretation" of what he heard.

 

[Lewiz]

We overcome the longings of the flesh by the riches of His grace.

Nope, nope nope nope. Freegrace has blinded you.

New International Version
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

New Living Translation
For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our faith.

English Standard Version
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Berean Study Bible
because everyone born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith.

Berean Literal Bible
For everyone having been born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory having overcome the world: our faith.

New American Standard Bible
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.

King James Bible
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Faith is being persuaded what God says is true, faith is the vehicle by which we draw from the Living Water, Jesus is always the object of our faith.

We are told to go to His grace and draw.

Grace isn't an object to draw from. God is.

 

[Lewiz]

Those who practice sin are slaves to sin. Nature has nothing to with it, unless of course someone doesn't have the divine nature to assist in overcoming the sinful nature.

It seems that what is missing from all of your rationalizations is faith. Faith is what allows us to overcome the sinful nature.

That can happen when all they think about is freegrace. Many act like they don't need faith anymore once they make their 'decision'.

 

[Lewiz]

That"s right it is impossible to be Born Again.... Again.

We are only born again once.

To try and do so, like the Hebrews, means that the one sacrifice was not enough and they are trying to crucify Jesus again, which put Jesus and His work to open shame saying His death was insufficient to save from all sin.

This whole passage actually confirms we are secure in Christ once we are born again in Him which is eternal

So can I say busted now?

To yourself, yes.

I could post from multiple commentaries, but why bother? You'd just say they're all wrong.

Anything else I'd say would be wrong as well.

You can continue to think you can ride your sliding board of freegrace into Heaven if you want to. After all, the scriptures say that I can't change your mind.

 

[Lewiz]

And here's another thing to consider. We cannot fight the flesh with the flesh. The flesh has a morality that is fleshly. It is prideful and it does all things for it's own glory. Even when it obeys it does so out of selfish motives.

So all our obedience is out of selfish motives?

Is this some new theology you're imparting to us?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Titus 2:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We overcome the longings of the flesh by the riches of His grace

Where does it say that? Faith is what overcomes.

Nope, nope nope nope. Freegrace has blinded you.

 

[Lewiz]

As I said right faith, in Jesus, is the vehicle, the instrument, but it is His grace that saves.
These verses affirm this very truth.

I read in the Bible we're saved 1. BY GRACE 2. THROUGH FAITH(living by faith)

This newfangled grace that's nothing like real grace is supposed to fix everything without us living by faith.

That makes its believers covenant breakers.

Those refusing & rebelling from living by faith are breaking the New Covenant whereby God promised to keep us as we walk by faith.

 

[Lewiz]

So do you feel that those who have been saved can change their position In CHRIST by what they do In the flesh?

It's about attitudes, & attitudes come from the heart, whether they be good or bad.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I read in the Bible we're saved 1. BY GRACE 2. THROUGH FAITH(living by faith)

This newfangled grace that's nothing like real grace is supposed to fix everything without us living by faith.

That makes its believers covenant breakers.

Those refusing & rebelling from living by faith are breaking the New Covenant whereby God promised to keep us as we walk by faith.

IMO so-called right faith is belief that can only be seen using the right lens. It is salvation by (right) knowledge.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

And here's another thing to consider. We cannot fight the flesh with the flesh. The flesh has a morality that is fleshly. It is prideful and it does all things for it's own glory. Even when it obeys it does so out of selfish motives.

So all our obedience is out of selfish motives?

Is this some new theology you're imparting to us

The way I see it is as follows:

Let's say a guy was a thief before coming to Christ (being born again).

So the born again one is window shopping one day and sees a really nice, expensive watch in a window and he really, really likes that watch.

If the born again one is walking according to the "old man" (which we are instructed to "put off" in Eph 4:22 and Col 3:9), he would see the watch and think about the good ole days when he would just take a five finger discount and steal the watch. The guy would battle with his flesh and may or may not overcome his fleshly urges. But, let's just say he does overcome and he moves along without stealing the watch. But for a moment or two there was a battle going on - that conflict mentioned in Gal 517. Also, he feels pretty good about himself and having overcome the temptation.

Now let's say the same guy is walking according to the "new man" (which we are instructed to "put on" in Eph 4:24 and Col 3:10) and sees the watch in the window. The thought of the five finger discount doesn't even enter his mind because he's not walking according to his flesh. It is not in the nature of the new man to steal anything so there would be no battle with his flesh. He can see the watch in the window and admire it. No inward struggle ... just the wonderful blessedness of living life in light of who he is in Christ Jesus.


And this is just an example and might possibly be poorly written so please understand it as just an example. Thank you.

 

[joefizz]

In this verse he talking about being born again, when we are born again we have victory, it is saving faith ..but the object of our faith is always Jesus. This event, being born again, is a one time event, not an ongoing process.

As I said right faith, in Jesus, is the vehicle, the instrument, but it is His grace that saves.
These verses affirm this very truth.

Yes indeed although it's possible to "grow in spirit".