Loss of salvation.

[eternally-gratefull]

The Galatians show us the fallacy of both the old and the new 'once saved always saved' arguments:


If the traditional view of 'once saved always saved' was true, they would have never fallen away from justification in Christ to begin with (to do so would show them to have never been justified to begin with).


If the new view of 'once saved always saved' was true, they would not be warned by Paul that to go back to the law for justification and away from justification in Christ makes them slaves that have no part in the inheritance (but it is argued that them doing that has no affect whatsoever on them continuing to possess the eternal inheritance).

you do not even know the true eternal security argument is, so stop trying to discredit what you do not understand, your making yourself look bad (i was going to say something else, but will be nice)

 

[Ralph-]

you do not even know the true eternal security argument is...

Which one are you talking about? The 'once save always saved' argument that says the saved person has works (or else they are not saved), or the one that says works don't matter in any way shape or form?

Or are you talking about the real eternal security argument, that the person who is presently believing is presently secure in Christ?

 

[Metternich]

yes we should see it, thank you fo sharing and helping prove our point.

we were some of them but what happened?

we were washed, we were justified, we were sanctified in the name of christ.

So it came with a price, the price? The cross. Not your goodness or how great you are!

Just so we are clear you believe a Christian can be all those sinful things Paul lists and still go to heaven without having to repent before death.

 

[Ralph-]

You might want to study Galatians properly from start to finish. The did not "fall away', but Paul says"You have fallen from grace" or he could have said "You have departed from grace". They were being seduced into thinking that even though they were saved by grace through saved, they must ALSO be saved by the works of the law (e.g. circumcision). But the Galatians had not become apostate or "fallen away". Here is how Paul ends his epistle:

Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

Are you suggesting that 'justified' in Galatians is not even referring to being made righteous in Christ but rather being shown to be righteous in Christ? IOW, the book has nothing to do with justification for and toward salvation?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Which one are you talking about? The 'once save always saved' argument that says the saved person has works (or else they are not saved),

well does not james state this? Your argument woupd be with james. Not me nor osas, but even then, why do you think people say that, this does not prove you know what those people think.

the one that says works don't matter in any way shape or form?

why do say say ths do you know? And again, this does not prove you know what they believe.

and where is your third point, the point you have been shown many times yet refuse t acknowledge, do you know what that belief is?

Or are you talking about the real eternal security argument, that the person who is presently believing is presently secure in Christ?

Please, that is not eternal security, that is conditional insecurity.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Are you suggesting that 'justified' in Galatians is not even referring to being made righteous in Christ but rather being shown to be righteous in Christ? IOW, the book has nothing to do with justification for and toward salvation?

Justification in Scripture always means being DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by God. Sanctification is being MADE RIGHTEOUS.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified [δικαιωθῶμεν, dikaiōthōmen] by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2:16).

Strong's Concordance

dikaioó: to show to be righteous, declare righteous​

Original Word: δικαιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dikaioó
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yo'-o)
Short Definition: I make righteous, defend the cause of, justify
Definition: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1344: δικαιόω

b. with the positive idea predominant, to judge, declare, pronounce, righteous and therefore acceptable,... by means of faith, Romans 5:1; Galatians 2:16;

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Just so we are clear you believe a Christian can be all those sinful things Paul lists and still go to heaven without having to repent before death.

Just to be clear,

paul said that such were some of those, but they were washed, sanctified and justified in jesus name, where did it say they stipped 100 % hose snsl and are you sinless? If not, why do you refuse t admit you are just as guilty as them?

 

[Metternich]

Just to be clear,

paul said that such were some of those, but they were washed, sanctified and justified in jesus name, where did it say they stipped 100 % hose snsl and are you sinless? If not, why do you refuse t admit you are just as guilty as them?

Paul was writing to believers. No believer would be under the mistaken notion that an unbelieving adulterer would be saved.
Therefore his warning is to believers who might be under the mistaken notion that they could commit these sins and still be saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul was writing to believers. No believer would be under the mistaken notion that an unbelieving adulterer would be saved.
Therefore his warning is to believers who might be under the mistaken notion that they could commit these sins and still be saved.

Yes, he was writting to believers

”and such were some of you”. but you have been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of jesus”

you keep ignoring that part and trying to insert your own interpretation.

he did not say they were saved bcause they stopped, he said because they were cleansed by the cross.

If you read corinthians, the whole church was struggling with sexual sin, some way more than others, and these are the people paul spoke to.

Why dont you try taking care of your own sin before you you start judging other people of theirs.

 

[Metternich]

Yes, he was writting to believers

”and such were some of you”. but you have been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of jesus”

you keep ignoring that part and trying to insert your own interpretation.

he did not say they were saved bcause they stopped, he said because they were cleansed by the cross.

If you read corinthians, the whole church was struggling with sexual sin, some way more than others, and these are the people paul spoke to.

Why dont you try taking care of your own sin before you you start judging other people of theirs.

I am certainly a sinner and I pray to God to keep me from them. What I don't understand is who is Paul's warning that people who commit these sins will not go to heaven addressed to? Who does he not want to be deceived into thinking that such sinners will not go to heaven.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am certainly a sinner and I pray to God to keep me from them. What I don't understand is who is Paul's warning that people who commit these sins will not go to heaven addressed to? Who does he not want to be deceived into thinking that such sinners will not go to heaven.

I think your missunderstanding paul, he said that was your old life, this is your new, start living your new life.

lets look in context


[FONT=&quot]Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

he judged them for taking each other to court, yet wose, civil court so the world could see their shame. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!

He again reiterates how sinful they are, yet they are willing to bring civil unsaved judges in to judge ther brothers and sisters, he is calling them hypocrites, and saying they are just as guilty as te others, and shaming not only each other but god himself 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

he is making a point, your sinners, and bringing each oher to court for these things, dont you know non of these people will inherit the kingome (and your just as guilty as hey are), yet there is something which seperates you from them (the world)

11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.[/FONT]

This was your life, you have been washed clean, it is no longer you, so why do you still act as they do? Then take each other to court over these issues?


The law said those people will not get to heaven, i agree, yet james said if we break one command we are guilty of all, so according to james, since you and i still sin, would that not disqualify us also? So what gives us he right to take others to court over these matters?

 

[Ralph-]

...who is Paul's warning that people who commit these sins will not go to heaven addressed to? Who does he not want to be deceived into thinking that such sinners will not go to heaven.

It's addressed to those in the church who 'live like this'. We see that more clearly in his other warning to the church about sinning:


"sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."-Galatians 5:19-20


IOW, that person is not saved. John refers to it as the practice of sin The person who practices sin in his old, unchanged, unrepentant life is simply not born again. Doesn't matter if he never was born again to begin with or stopped believing and is no longer born again, the outcome is the same--he will not inherit the kingdom of God.


"Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning."-1 John 3:7-8


That's why the 'once saved always saved' argument is so meaningless. It doesn't matter if you were never saved to begin with or stopped being saved. Either way, the person who is living unchanged in sin is unsaved and they are going to the fiery place, not into the kingdom of God when Jesus returns. But Peter explains that we can know that we are not deceived and will receive a rich welcome into the kingdom of God by if we are growing up into and increasing in the qualities of the Spirit:


"if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
10...as long as you practice these things (the qualities of the Spirit-see context), you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you."-2 Peter 1:8,10


As long as you are growing up in your knowledge of the Lord and increasing in the qualities of the Spirit you know your entrance into the kingdom is assured and that you are not being deceived thinking that you can live in and practice sin and you will still somehow inherit the kingdom.

Don't be deceived about this, people. Make sure you're among the saved. Unchanged people are not saved people. They belong to the devil. Don't be deceived by a doctrine that says your behavior doesn't matter and doesn't prove anything.

 

[Ralph-]

Justification in Scripture always means being DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by God. Sanctification is being MADE RIGHTEOUS.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified [δικαιωθῶμεν, dikaiōthōmen] by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2:16).

Strong's Concordance

dikaioó: to show to be righteous, declare righteous​

Original Word: δικαιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dikaioó
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yo'-o)
Short Definition: I make righteous, defend the cause of, justify
Definition: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1344: δικαιόω

b. with the positive idea predominant, to judge, declare, pronounce, righteous and therefore acceptable,... by means of faith, Romans 5:1; Galatians 2:16;

Let's address it this way.

Are you suggesting that being 'justified' in the book of Galatians is in regard to how Paul means 'justified' in Romans 3:28...


"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. "-Romans 3:28


Or by how James means 'justified' in James 2:24?


"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."-James 2:24



Paul is referring to how a man is made legally righteous before God through his faith apart from the merit of work. James is referring to how a man is shown to be righteous before God by what he does. Which one do you say Paul is referring to when he says the Galatians lose the benefit of Christ in justification by going back to the law for justification?

 

[Ralph-]

The point is, Nehemiah6, if Paul is referring to justification the way he means it in Romans then he is in fact saying the Galatians will lose the free gift of legal justification through Christ they have received if they go back to the law for justification.

If Paul is referring to justification the way James means it in his letter then they are simply not showing themselves to be the righteous people they are in Christ, and so it strips the letter of any relevance to losing salvation. Problem with that is.......it doesn't fit the context of the letter.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The point is, Nehemiah6, if Paul is referring to justification the way he means it in Romans then he is in fact saying the Galatians will lose the free gift of legal justification through Christ they have received if they go back to the law for justification.

Except that it doesn't work that way. At the same time that God justifies a sinner, He also imputes the righteousness of Christ to his or her account. And that is a final and irreversible transaction, since He gives the Holy Spirit to that person, and the Holy Spirit places the believer into the body of Christ.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor 12:13)

Do you now see that any talk about losing one's salvation fails to take into account the supernatural work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in salvation? And I have only touched on a few aspects. There are many other aspects which come together to ensure the eternal security of the believer.

 

[fredoheaven]

God is the one who eventually will turn the ex-believer over to his decision to go back to unbelief.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The Gift of eternal life can no man plucked out in the hands of Christ, so much the more, since it His in the hand of the Father plus it has been sealed by the Holy Spirit of God. As Christ said, he knows his sheep and the sheep knew Christ and they followed him. Too bad you have been engrossed with mere opinion that it cannot be not backed up in the scriptures.

 

[fredoheaven]

Paul warned the saved Galatians that they were making themselves sons of the slave woman, Hagar (the old covenant), by going back to unbelief and reliance on the law for justification. And he made it clear to them that slaves have no part in the inheritance. Only sons of the free woman, Sarah (the new covenant), are heirs in line for the inheritance.

Lol! Even Paul says to the Galatian believers that they were heirs of God because of Christ and I just don’t know if you really understood Galatians 4 in its entirety it says on

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

How in a world that being an heir through Christ would turn themselves to the law which Christ had already fulfilled. The attitude and actions of these Judaizers mixed and troubled the Galatian believers and have nothing to do with losing salvation. That put Paul into question why they desire themselves to be in bondage when it was the fact that the effect of the law was already finished by Christ.

 

[fredoheaven]

Did the Galatians come back to their senses? We don't know. We just know what will happen to them when Jesus comes back if they didn't--they won't be inheriting the kingdom of God.

Not again, the bible doesn’t say anything about that. One thing you missed is that the Galatian believers are not of the bondwoman but of freewoman. The Galatians believers were after all of the freewoman and nothing about a changed of their position.

Galatian 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

[Ralph-]

Except that it doesn't work that way. At the same time that God justifies a sinner, He also imputes the righteousness of Christ to his or her account. And that is a final and irreversible transaction, since He gives the Holy Spirit to that person, and the Holy Spirit places the believer into the body of Christ.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor 12:13)

Do you now see that any talk about losing one's salvation fails to take into account the supernatural work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in salvation? And I have only touched on a few aspects. There are many other aspects which come together to ensure the eternal security of the believer.

All you're saying is, 'you can't lose your salvation because you can't lose your salvation'. Nothing you wrote here proves salvation is "a final and irreversible transaction". All you did was restate your answer to the question of whether or not one can lose their salvation.

 

[PennEd]

All you're saying is, 'you can't lose your salvation because you can't lose your salvation'. Nothing you wrote here proves salvation is "a final and irreversible transaction". All you did was restate your answer to the question of whether or not one can lose their salvation.

Your obsession with demanding PROOF for eternal security reminds me of this passage:
[FONT=&quot]38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to SEE A SIGN from you.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.


Our "proof" is in HIS sacrifice and subsequent resurrection.[/FONT]