Not By Works

[joefizz]

I do focus on the cross, but I also focus on what Jesus said personally. He personally said that his Father would not forgive those who trespassed against Him, if we do not forgive those that trespass against us.

If the Father does not forgive you of your sins, you can forget eternal life, because no degree of sin remains in the place that God is. Therefore forgive or lose your eternal life, no matter where your focus seems to be.

You do realize that "all authority and power" was given to Jesus including "forgiveness of sins" right?

 

[joefizz]

2 pieces of scripture.
We are saved by grace through faith.
Faith without works is dead.

You explain how these 2 scriptures work together.

Which faith are you referring to?Faith in Jesus which saves or faith in man which condemns?

 

[Seohce]

Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.


James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[Endoscopy]

It was just a mere mutually agreed upon creed years ago that's all,time has passed since then and things have "changed" both the religion tied to the creed and the people who at the time agreed to it but later changed their minds due to religious warfare.

You are ignoring the history of how the creeds were created. Then you basically say religion has changed. That is heretical. The Bible has not changed since it was written!! Try again how Biblical religion has changed!!

 

[NoNameMcgee]

2 pieces of scripture.
We are saved by grace through faith.
Faith without works is dead.

You explain how these 2 scriptures work together.

fruits are a product of being rooted in Christ


you are saved (forever) the moment you are born again
(rooted)

and if this happens (if you become born again)

it happens by grace

which is how we are saved without works
and apart from works
apart from works


you become His son


now He chastens His children
He encourages them
He lifts them up
He works in them


so if you have a genuine faith (a genuine faith endures till the end....because the new spirit He places in you testifies He is your father)


He will produce fruit in this sort of son/daughter

(the only sort of son/daughter)


but we are already saved before works

apart from works

without works

 

[mailmandan]

Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation.

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

 

[Seohce]

Titus 3:5 He saved us not by works of righteousness which we had done, but according to His
mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and by the renewing of the Holy Ghost,
THE RIHTEOUSNEßS OF THE JEWS WAS THROUGH THE LAW.
Deuteronomy 6:24-25 The Lord commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the Lord
our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. And if we are
careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, THAT WILL BE
OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRISTIANS (NEW CREATION/MAN) IS THROUGH FAITH.
Romans 9:30-32 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness,
have obtained it, A RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS BY FAITH; but ISRAEL, who pursued a law of
righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it NOT BY FAITH but as if it
were by works. THEY stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”
“NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAD DONE" REFERS TO THE
RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE JEWS WHICH WAS THROUGH THE LAW. (titus 3:5, eph 2:8-9)
PAUL’S QUESTION IS:
Romans 3:31 Do we, then, NULLIFY the law by this faith?​ Not at all! Rather, we uphold the
law.
HE ALSO SAID,
Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith NULLIFY God’s
faithfulness?​ Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may
be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”
GOD PUTS AND WRITES THE LAW IN OUR HEARTS AND MINDS.
Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares
the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and
they will be my people.
Hebrews 10:16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will
put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”
...NOT JUST TO THE JEWS WHO WERE CIRCUMCISED IN THE FLESH BUT ALSO TO
THOSE WHO WERE CIRCUMCISED IN THE HEART.

Romans 2:28-29 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely
outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is
CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART, by the Spirit, not by the written code. ​Such a man’s praise
is not from men, but from God.
AND CHRISTIANS ARE ABLE TO FULFILL AND UPHOLD THE LAW IN THEIR HEARTS AND
MINDS BECAUSE OF THE LOVE THAT WAS POURED INTO THEIR HEARTS.
Romans 5:5 And hope does not disappoint us, because GOD HAS POURED OUT HIS LOVE
INTO OUR HEARTS by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
AND THEREFORE, “LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW.”(romans 13:10)
1 John 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we
ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
1 John 5:2-3 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying
out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not
burdensome,
2 John 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE; THAT WE WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS​. As
you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE.
Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your HEART that you
BELIEVE and are JUSTIFIED, and it is with your MOUTH that you CONFESS and are
SAVED.
1 John 3:18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but WITH ACTIONS AND IN
TRUTH.
Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be FULLY MET IN
US,​ who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Matthew 10:38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
John 14:15 “IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU WILL OBEY WHAT I COMMAND.”
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say​?

 

[VCO]

I notice you avoid the question I asked. Keep in mind that baptism mode is outside of the Apostles Creed which places it in the area of agree to disagree. So answer my question about why several gospel preaching denominations use pouring and sprinkling!!

​Explain away please!!

PS: How about cities here in the US near Death Valley. Your geology is extremely flawed!!

I DID EXPLAIN IT. They believe that GOD can do with one drop of water, with what HE Can Do With A FULL RIVER OF WATER.

I too believe in immersion, however, I can give you an example of at least two, that would prompt me to use pouring or sprinkling, when I baptize someone.

1. When it would endanger their Health, such as very elderly, or someone in a wheel chair, or anyone else that would endanger their Health to force them to climb into a baptistery or river.

2. I used to be a Volunteer Protestant Prison Chaplain, in the end of the line super-max prison in California. In the Security Housing Unit, (the Hole), were they housed inmates that COULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE IN CONTACT WITH ANYONE. It was the C.D.C. RULE, that EVERYONE OF STAFF, even though there was always a door between the inmate and staff; that you had to have a stab proof vest on, and they were very hot at times. I only had ONE inmate that asked to be Baptized in the S.H.U. I told him as long as he was in the Security Housing Unit, the best I could do is have him go to the Shower Cell, and I would have to be out side that cell, and have him back in under the shower, as I said "Because of your Faith, I baptize you in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." AND I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT GOD WOULD HAVE HONORED THAT BAPTISM. The inmate refused, so it did not happen.


AS I SAID BEFORE, you are mistaken if you think that Christian Water Baptism is what Eph. 4:4-5, was talking about.


Ephesians 4:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]There is one body {Spiritual body of Jesus Christ} and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope at your calling—
[SUP]5 [/SUP]one Lord, one faith, one baptism, {immersion into that body}


Even in Death Valley, You can use a Horse Tank, (and that was what we used in the Prison Chapel, with wheels on it, and drained it on the lawn) and THEREFORE THEY COULD HAVE used the Water to water the animals, or drained it on the Garden.

If you could not think of that, YOU ARE SPOILED BY A BIG CHURCH BAPTISM, because a HORSE TANK is very common in a small Church Baptisms.

[video=youtube;nXFL6PBdo5Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXFL6PBdo5Y[/video]


You two are so hung up on the MODE of Baptism, that you are MISSING THE POINT. It is NOT the ONE BAPTISM that Eph. 4:4-5 talks about, INSTEAD it is the Immersion into the Spiritual Body of CHRIST. AFTER THAT HAPPENS, then you can walk in OBEDIENCE to CHRIST. And one of the first few steps you should take, on that WALK, SHOULD be the one of PUBLIC IDENTIFICATION WITH CHRIST. ONLY AFTER THAT, AS THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES IN, BIRTHING YOUR ONCE DEAD HUMAN SPIRIT INTO ETERNAL LIFE, and IMMERSES YOU INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST; CAN YOU FOLLOW HIM INTO THE WATERS OF CHRISTIAN. Prior to that, all you did is: you went down a dry sinner, and came up a wet sinner.


Now maybe you can have a DEEPER meaning to this VERSE:

Romans 8:35 (HCSB)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] Who can separate us from the love of Christ?
Can affliction or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

 

[Endoscopy]

fruits are a product of being rooted in Christ


you are saved (forever) the moment you are born again
(rooted)

and if this happens (if you become born again)

it happens by grace

which is how we are saved without works
and apart from works
apart from works


you become His son


now He chastens His children
He encourages them
He lifts them up
He works in them


so if you have a genuine faith (a genuine faith endures till the end....because the new spirit He places in you testifies He is your father)


He will produce fruit in this sort of son/daughter

(the only sort of son/daughter)


but we are already saved before works

apart from works

without works

In other words you ignore faith without works is dead.

 

[joefizz]

You are ignoring the history of how the creeds were created. Then you basically say religion has changed. That is heretical. The Bible has not changed since it was written!! Try again how Biblical religion has changed!!

The bible hasn't changed but religion sure has you'd have to be sheltered with no window to the outside world to not know this.

 

[Endoscopy]

In other words you ignore faith without works is dead.

Hate the 5 minute rule. Went to take a leak.

I didn't lie. I might say something not factual but not deliberately. Your accusations are insulting. But then you seem to be unable to discuss in a reasonable manner.

 

[mailmandan]

Hate the 5 minute rule. Went to take a leak.

I didn't lie. I might say something not factual but not deliberately. Your accusations are insulting. But then you seem to be unable to discuss in a reasonable manner.

You just posted this (other than went to take a leak) in the "Commandments, AGAIN1" thread.

I didn't lie. I might say something not factual but not deliberately. Your accusations are insulting. But then you seem to be unable to discuss in a reasonable manner.

Don't let Studyman get under your skin.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/166502-commandments-again1-12.html

 

[NoNameMcgee]

In other words you ignore faith without works is dead.

nope i just understand the verse in context


genuine faith <- saved already by grace
apart from works
not of works
before works

UNTO WORKS

 

[BillG]

English was spoken since the tower of Babel and God confounding the languages.....wow!

I think you will find it was Scottish

 

[BillG]

Hate the 5 minute rule. Went to take a leak.

I didn't lie. I might say something not factual but not deliberately. Your accusations are insulting. But then you seem to be unable to discuss in a reasonable manner.

Wow that's a long leak.
Or is the house so big it takes that long to reach the leak room?

 

[TruthTalk]

We are saved by grace through faith - not by works, so that no one can boast.

Basic Sunday School Theology, where even a child can understand this basic principal. "Not By Works", difficult lesson for some. Saved "unto good works" not by them.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God,
9) not by works, so that no one can boast.
10) For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

amen


It is His perfect righteousness that will be imputed to who so ever believes on His name.


1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
___________
James 2:10
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

_______________

romans 3

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
____________
Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith


romans 5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

bump for endo


man...

you should try reading the whole bible

when you just repeat one single verse you dont even understand in context

day after day after day

how do you expect to learn?

i have literally prayed for you


i really do hope you come to the truth

but it wont happen with you relying on your false understanding thinking works produce or play a part in

earning or keeping salvation

 

[mailmandan]

nope i just understand the verse in context

genuine faith <- saved already by grace
apart from works
not of works
before works

UNTO WORKS

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works. Works are produced from a living faith (Ephesians 2:5-10) and not a dead faith. In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works (as some would presume). That's like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit.

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works (James 2:14), then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

 

[benhur]

you reject the whole point of it

______________________



you also reject

vvvv

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

(He uses birth as an earthly example to help the lost Nicodemus who believed in works and didnt understand spiritual things to explain something spiritual to him)

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

(again Nicodemus is unable to understand this spiritual lesson even with an earthly example of birth so he uses his earthly reasoning to question Jesus speaking of two physical births)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(still speaking of brith and trying to relate the two.... born of water = anatomical fluid/natural birth and born of the Spirit = when God makes His children new)

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(again further explaining to hammer the point in of the two births.... flesh = water Spirit = God)


7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.




_______

if you believe water baptism to be a requirement for salvation then you believe a work will add to the sacrifice of Jesus to aid Him in your salvation



water baptism is a physical cerimony to represent something physical


the same way animal sacrifices would not save anyone
(we need the sacrifice of Jesus)
water baptism will not save anyone
(we need the baptism of the Holy Spirit)

You say that no root means: not chosen, not saving faith, not born again. I do not think you are right about that analysis.
The scripture said that the seed was received with gladness. This tells me that these people received the word and were born again and were a happy people.
No root means to me that their faith was limited, or shallow, and so when the problems came they fell back into their old habits, and were lost.

So our main difference is you think no root = not born again. I think received with gladness = born again and living the gospel for a time in happiness.


As far as your first birth = born of water, I believe you are not correct. I have told you this before, but the amniotic fluid has very little water in it at birth, and so I don't believe that amniotic fluid passes for water. I believe you are putting words or thoughts into the mind of Jesus in your analysis that are incorrect. Sorry, but I don't follow that line of thinking. But thanks for sharing it with me.

Whereas being baptized by complete immersion creates a perfect symbol of being born of water/ or being born again.

Jesus tells Nicodemus that a man must be born again.
Nicodemus says can a man be put back in the womb.
Jesus then says, a man must be born of water and of the spirit.
He also says that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.
And finally, marvel not that I said unto you, ye must be born again.

When you are baptized, you are born of the flesh, and when the HS descends upon you, you are born of the spirit.
When you are completely immersed, you are brought up out the the water as if you were born of the water. To me it fits perfectly.
The birth concept seems to not fit, for it does not say that you are born of blood, baby urine, and other elements with some water.

Jesus does tell us in Mark 16:16 that a person needs to believe and be baptized in order to be saved. Baptism was a natural practice at the time of the apostles as soon as a person believed, so I am comfortable with my interpretation of John 3

 

[benhur]

Nobody downgrades anything...it is called proper perspective and works of any sort or some faux law keeping drivel have absolutely NOTHING to do with gaining the ETERNAL SALVATION, LIFE, JUSTIFICATION AND SEALING THROUGH GRACE AND FAITH!

You are aware that faith has a good works component. If one has faith they will do good works. Right? Why do you never mention that? If I have said something wrong, then mention it in your response.