Faith and Deeds

[so-jesus-e-deus]

One thing is our deeds; other thing is Jesus' deeds. Our deeds don't saved (Eph 2.8,9). However, Jesus' deeds in us produce salvation, for they work in us His good, pleasure and perfect will (Phil 2.12,13; Rom 12.2).

 

[mailmandan]

James' use of the term "brothers" should not be confused with it's Christian usage. Paul referred to unsaved Israel as his brethren-Romans 9:3. The term "brothers" or "brethren" does not always mean Christians in the NT. Sometimes it simply means kinsmen.

Notice in James 5:19-20, some who James calls "brethren" need to have their souls saved. See James 1:21 as well. It is clear that there were those in James' audience who had not received the word of God, and their souls were not yet saved.

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Are you saying that James was writing to unbelieving Jews? How do you interpret James 2:14-24?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

To define faith "as" works and teach salvation by faith "plus works" is to pervert the gospel.

This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

 

[mailmandan]

But if he hadn't been obedient to what he was told he wouldn't have been saved. You're just playing with words to avoid admitting that very obvious fact.

If he hadn't been obedient to what he was told he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, yet that was not the case and Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was a "preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. That is the ROOT of the issue. Lack of faith - cause. Lack of obedience - effect. I understand the obvious facts. You are confusing cause with effect.

 

[mailmandan]

This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

When Jesus was answering the question, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" in John 6:28 by saying this is the work of God that you believe.. (verse 29) He was not teaching that faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Notice that Paul makes a DISTINCTION between faith AND works in Ephesians 2:8,9 - "..saved through faith, not works." If faith IS works then why the distinction?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If he hadn't been obedient to what he was told he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, yet that was not the case and Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was a "preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. That is the ROOT of the issue. Lack of faith - cause. Lack of obedience - effect. I understand the obvious facts. You are confusing cause with effect.

No, you're confusing the issue with semantics. He obeyed out of his faith. If he had faith and hadn't obeyed, he would have been lost. Faith alone wouldn't have saved him.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

When Jesus was answering the question, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" in John 6:28 by saying this is the work of God that you believe.. (verse 29) He was not teaching that faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Notice that Paul makes a DISTINCTION between faith AND works in Ephesians 2:8,9 - "..saved through faith, not works." If faith IS works then why the distinction?

Faith is GOD's work, not works. Paul makes a distinction between works of law and the work of faith.

 

[mailmandan]

No, you're confusing the issue with semantics. He obeyed out of his faith. If he had faith and hadn't obeyed, he would have been lost. Faith alone wouldn't have saved him.

Yes, he obeyed "out of" faith. If he hadn't obeyed, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith. Faith alone "in that sense" would not have saved him because it would not have been authentic faith, as we read in James 2:14. That is the heart of the issue. What kind of faith tells God, "I don't believe you when you say that you are going to cause it to rain for 40 days and 40 nights and flood the earth, so I refuse to build the ark?" DEAD faith.

 

[John146]

Are you saying that James was writing to unbelieving Jews? How do you interpret James 2:14-24?

I'm not saying this, Scripture points the way. If you are a Jew enduring through the tribulation, James becomes a vital book to study and live by.

James 2:14-24 takes us back to the OT times where a man lived by his own individual faith. The faith of Jesus Christ was not available to him yet.

Galatians 3
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

That faith is the faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of Jesus Christ is God's righteousness revealed to man. Christ's faith justifies the believer. Because the faith of Christ was spotless, He could be the innocent Lamb of God sacrificed in our place.

 

[mailmandan]

James 2:14-24 takes us back to the OT times where a man lived by his own individual faith. The faith of Jesus Christ was not available to him yet.

So why all the talk about "claims to have faith but has no works; faith without works is dead; justified by works?" Are you saying this only implies to the Jews in the OT?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yes, he obeyed "out of" faith. If he hadn't obeyed, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith. Faith alone "in that sense" would not have saved him because it would not have been authentic faith, as we read in James 2:14. That is the heart of the issue. What kind of faith tells God, "I don't believe you when you say that you are going to cause it to rain for 40 days and 40 nights and flood the earth, so I refuse to build the ark?" DEAD faith.

So faith is revealed to be authentic by obeying GOD.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith is GOD's work, not works. Paul makes a distinction between works of law and the work of faith.

So you are saying that faith is God's work and not man's work? Can you dissect good works/works of obedience/works of faith from the moral aspect of the law? (Matthew 22:37-40).

 

[John146]

So why all the talk about "claims to have faith but has no works; faith without works is dead; justified by works?" Are you saying this only implies to the Jews in the OT?

Jews in the OT and Jews in the tribulation. The body of Christ is not justified by our faith, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. The evidence of Christ's faith was demonstrated by His perfect obedience unto death, even the death of the cross.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The righteousness of God is found through the faith of Jesus Christ!

Romans 3 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So you are saying that faith is God's work and not man's work? Can you dissect good works/works of obedience/works of faith from the moral aspect of the law? (Matthew 22:37-40).

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Believing into Christ is the work that GOD requires of man.

 

[John146]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Believing into Christ is the work that GOD requires of man.

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Paul using an OT example to reveal a NT truth. Obeying the gospel is believing the report of the gospel; the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for our sins.

 

[Studyman]

=mailmandan;3581407]

Abraham obeyed God by leaving his country, yet it was not until Genesis 15:5 when God brought Abraham outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them."

1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Isn't this the same promise He gave to everyone? "Obey Me, trust in me, Listen and Do what I say, And I will Bless thee beyond your wildest dreams.

How can you preach that Abraham didn't have this promise from the very beginning?

It wasn't until Abram listened and obeyed that God tested his Faith regarding his son. No amount of wrangling can change this Biblical Fact MMD. As the Word which became Flesh said, that you refused to even acknowledge;

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

These are "WORKS" that show we have Faith, that show our choice to "deny our self" and follow Him and His instructions, not the religious traditions of man.

And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." In verse 6, we read that Abraham believed in the Lord (BELIEVED GOD - Romans 4:3) and it (faith, not works) was credited to him for righteousness. If Abraham would have stayed in his country and refused to believe God about his descendants being as numerous as the stars in heaven, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case.

How can Abraham be righteous at 75 years of living outside of God's instructions? He couldn't be righteous, he had sin all over him. So for him to become righteous, something had to be done with his sin.

Did he take a goat to the nearest Levite Priest as was commanded by Moses? No!! That "law" was not given until 430 years later. Levi wasn't even born yet. So how was his sin forgiven? Was it not by Grace "Through his Faith"? Are the demons forgiven? They "believe"!!! No, they believe but they don't have Faith. Faith "REQUIRES" action, belief does not. Abraham didn't just believe, he obeyed. This action changed his belief to Faith, which is necessary for Grace.

I know you guys preach against this. I know your religion doesn't believe this. But the Bible confirms this teaching.

FAITH is believing and obedience is works. This is the same error that Roman Catholics make. I was in a discussion with a Roman Catholic about salvation through faith and here is what he had to say below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

Yes, the catholic have created their own "works" for salvation just like the Pharisees did as Jesus said.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Christmas, Sunday Worship, Lent, Halloween, Good Friday, Long haired images of God, all the Work's of the Catholic church and her many, many daughters.

You are right to expose them as not coming from the Word which became Flesh.

It is very deceptive how you mixed the religious traditions of the Catholics along with the commandments of God. Very tricky and deceptive MMD.

Abraham didn't continue in the religious traditions of his fathers, he was told to leave them. He did, however, obey God's instructions without creating his own.

God said Abraham was blessed "BECAUSE" He honored Him with obedience. This obedience was called FAITH in Heb. 11.

I have noticed that only those religious people who traditions cause them to transgress God's Commandments, argue with what seems like such a simple and Biblical truth about Abraham.

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is absolutely FALSE and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.

It is the Bible that teaches Faith without works is dead. I know you can't accept this. I wish you could.

First you said Abraham was saved without any works. Which the Bible exposes as not accurate. Now you claim His Works of obedience from the very beginning don't count because God hadn't promised him anything yet. Well, as you can see, the Bible also shows this as not accurate.

Then you have others who also error by defining faith as obedience/works and pervert the gospel, such as SDA's who teach salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" as demonstrated below:

You are no different with your salvation by faith + obeying commandments/works theology.

I think it is wrong to assume anyone who isn't a catholic or one of her many daughters who mock her, but keep most of her religious traditions, is SDA or whatever you wish to tag them as.

I'm not a Catholic, nor am I a partaker of the many religious franchises she spawned, Baptist, AOG, Lutheran, Pentecostal, and on and on. I believe that any religious organization that "Transgress the Commandments of God by their own religious traditions" are no different than the Pharisees, who also claimed to be Children of Abraham.

Abraham wasn't justified by the Justification Laws given by Moses to the Levites 430 years after Abraham. He was justified by Faith. The Bible says Faith without "works" is dead. Abraham didn't just have any old religious works of the religions of the land. He left them, denied himself, took up his cross and "followed" the Word which became Flesh. He wasn't justified by "Works" of a Law "ADDED" 430 years later. He wasn't a "hearer" of God's Instructions but a "doer" of God's instructions. And it was this "action" that caused God to bless his Seed.

It's in your Bible, all you have to do is "believe it".

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Why people go to such extreme to preach that faith "is" obedience/works is not fascinating, but erroneous. Abraham may have believed in God enough to do as God instructed, but Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness when he believed in the Lord in Genesis 15:5-6 many years BEFORE he set out to perform the WORK of sacrificing Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

You have to preach this MMD. You have to separate obedience from Faith, not because of the Bibles teaching, but because of your religious traditions.

What if after Abraham left his country he would have refused to believe in the Lord/believe God when God told him that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in heaven? Would his faith still have been accounted to him for righteousness? NO. But that was not the case because Abraham's faith in God was authentic. You, just like other works-salvationists, make the same error of taking faith and obedience/works, wrapping it all up in a package and simply stamping "faith" on the package, making no distinction between faith and obedience/works, which results in salvation by faith PLUS WORKS. This is commonly taught is every other false movement of Christendom. You need to learn the difference between faith and works of obedience which are produced "out of" faith. Faith is faith and works are works. To define faith "as" works and teach salvation by faith "plus works" is to pervert the gospel.

Abraham Followed God's instructions and it was called faith. He believed in God, but so do demons disguised as ministers of righteousness. What separated Abraham from the demons was his obedience to God, not religious man'. What separated Jesus from the others who were murdered on the same day was obedience to God, not religious man.

The common denominator in EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE OF FAITH ever shown in the Bible, was obedience to God, not man.

No amount of ignoring, omitting, twisting, scripture can change this Biblical Fact. Nothing Paul says preaches against this.

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Rejecting God's Commandments to serve religious traditions of man are not "Works" worthy of repentance. We should strive to have "The Faith of Abraham", not just hear them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But if he hadn't been obedient to what he was told he wouldn't have been saved. You're just playing with words to avoid admitting that very obvious fact.

Would he have not been saved becase he disobeyed, or because he lacked faith.

in fact, if abraham did not believe, would god have even asked him to get circucised as a sign or pledge? I suggest no, and in fact, that we would not even have heard of him. The name abraham would just be another name, not the father of many nations.

Some peop l focus too much on works (self). The need to get off this thinking.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ALL Faith is Claimed Faith. Every person who "comes in Christ's Name" claims Faith. Those in Matt. 7, claimed Faith in the Lord. Every person on this forum claims to have Faith.

To try and make the case that there are two different people, those who have Faith and those who "Claim" Faith is a little deceptive as we all claim faith.

This is a convenient way for a person to hide themselves. "well I have faith, but this other guy only "claims" faith. That isn't what James is saying.

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.



This part agrees with scripture. Belief and faith are not the same. Belief requires no action on our part. But Faith without action is dead. Which means Faith without action is not Faith, but "Belief".

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So can "belief" save you? Without Faith, I don't think so. We are saved by Grace, Through Faith, not through belief alone. Otherwise the demons would be saved also.

history



This can't be true given what James just said. "Can faith without Works save you", or can mere belief save you? No. So what does the scriptures say about Abraham?

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Here is the first Command, instruction, given to Abram before anything else was recorded about him. This is the Commandment from God, the Word which became Flesh, to Abram.

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Here is the FAITH shown by obedience. Did Abram say "I need to go bury my father first?" or " Your commandment is too burdensome and unjust for me to follow, I will just take the blessings without following your instructions and serve you in my fathers land?

No. He obeyed the instructions from God even though he didn't understand what they meant. His obedience WAS HIS FAITH.

I think the Word which became Flesh gave the same "command" to us all.

Matt. 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Follow Him where? "unto a land that I will shew thee".

So Biblically speaking your preaching that Abram was "saved" before 1 work is not accurate according to the Bible.


[/B]Abrahams "Faith" was proven when He picked up his cross and followed God when the call to do so came, at 75 years of age. Mine came at 37.

It is important to note that Abraham did have sin on him. But he received Grace through his Faith. His sin was not atoned for by the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law" which came 430 years later. But we know the God gave Abraham HIS LAWS, and Abraham obeyed them with all his human heart and soul and might.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

We are, therefore, to have the Faith of Abraham. Shown, not by our own religious "works", lest we should boast, but by adherence, honor and obedience to the instructions of God, which He has before ordained that we should "walk in them", as did Abraham.

Those who have true Faith in the Word which became Flesh are not just "hearers" of God's instructions (Believers) but "doers" of God's instructions.

I believe this is the message from James, and the Gospel in general.

lol no, not all faih is claimed fath. You more than anyone i have ever heard twist things and make up stuff in order to maintain your current belief.

There is true saving faith, and their is belief (dead faith) dead faith is no faith at all. That why the people were never saved, and why they never did any work (hearers not doers)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, you're confusing the issue with semantics. He obeyed out of his faith. If he had faith and hadn't obeyed, he would have been lost. Faith alone wouldn't have saved him.

see this is where the disconnect comes,

if he had faith he would have obeyed, if he did not have fath, he would have not obeyed.

Obedence (works) is a byproduct of faith. Remove faith, and there is no work,their may be religious deeds, but there is no work.

There is no such thing as faith alone,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith is GOD's work, not works. Paul makes a distinction between works of law and the work of faith.

No paul did not, he did not say grace theough faith not wrks of the law, he said works, he said in romans 4, that if abraham was found by works, nhe did not say works of the law, and in tiitus, he said not by works of righteousness, he did not say by works of law.

In eph, paul said a work is something yu can boast of, in romans he said work is something you can boast, or done to earn a wage. Hat is the defenition of work. If your workingto earn or maintain salvation, your going against paul because your tryi g to earn the wage (salvation) by working fr it, thus you can boast of saving yourself,