GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

[gb9]

I would give you a 'like' for the first paragraph but the second needs a lot more work on both our parts....but we are getting there...very slowly and likely still a few 'set-backs...but let's persevere !

First I would need to know just which laws you are set against....Moses' or God's Com's ? some have been fulfilled and some are 'spiritual and eternal. what is your view on these ?

I am not against any law. the Law is good. but, the Law was given to Israel only at Sinai. as I pointed out yesterday, Paul in Romans 2 clearly says " gentiles do not have the law."

if you choose to keep the Sabbath, then fine. but, it is not a requirement of N.T. believers .

the simplest way to answer your question is this- in the Bible, Malachi ends, then a couple of blank pages, then the words NEW TESTAMENT , then a few more blank pages, meaning a new thing. not a continuation of the old.

so, back to my point, Christanity is not Judaism .

 

[beta]

thank you. that is my goal. as long as we understand that the Sermon on the Mount is what Jesus laid out as the ideal behavior of a follower of His. that should all of our goals.

now, if you think one grows into the Law and Sabbath, then I have to disagree, that is jewish, not Christian. the Law is the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, then His teaching supersede . ( God the father- " this is my beloved Son. hear Him!)

Law and Sabbath are from GOD, Not Jews. so if we ignore them we are only considering parts of what God has to say...how can that give a complete picture ?
If we do away with the law as a schoolmaster HOW would you find the 'real true Jesus/Christ from among the 'many false' one's predicted in Mat 24 ? How would you know the 'real Jesus ?

Hint....do false christ's keep all 10 commandments of God intact or tear them apart ?

 

[beta]

I am not against any law. the Law is good. but, the Law was given to Israel only at Sinai. as I pointed out yesterday, Paul in Romans 2 clearly says " gentiles do not have the law."

if you choose to keep the Sabbath, then fine. but, it is not a requirement of N.T. believers .

the simplest way to answer your question is this- in the Bible, Malachi ends, then a couple of blank pages, then the words NEW TESTAMENT , then a few more blank pages, meaning a new thing. not a continuation of the old.

so, back to my point, Christanity is not Judaism .

No indeed, and we don't want to promote judaism...they also made a lot of mistakes....as do christians ! so where does that leave us ? with JESUS as our true example !!!
Did He please the Jews ? definitely not ! Is He pleasing christians ? that depends which Jesus is their example...the one they chose for themselves and can manipulate as they wish ...or the one who is 'the same yesterday, today and forever and does not change ? christians don't like that one !!! that is why they refuse to turn to him and call him jewish. Think about it !!!

 

[gb9]

Law and Sabbath are from GOD, Not Jews. so if we ignore them we are only considering parts of what God has to say...how can that give a complete picture ?
If we do away with the law as a schoolmaster HOW would you find the 'real true Jesus/Christ from among the 'many false' one's predicted in Mat 24 ? How would you know the 'real Jesus ?

Hint....do false christ's keep all 10 commandments of God intact or tear them apart ?

the real Jesus kept the law perfectly . only person to ever do so. so, His sacrifice, one for all, is a perfect sacrifice.

the questions you are asking are not relevant to Christians. there are plenty of N.T. instructions as to how a believer is to behave. all of the 10 except Sabbath are clearly commanded.

I tell you again- God the father " this is my beloved Son. hear Him". the Father did not say " hear me through Him". He said hear HIM.

I do. do you?

 

[PS]

Rom. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

You are free to ignore this scripture, or preach Paul actually physically died here, or that this death he speaks of didn't fall on the Adulterous woman. It's your religion.

Jesus message is the same to Jews and Gentiles alike. "go and sin no more".

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Your unbelief in the Bible doesn't make the Faith of God Void. Your childish insults and words designed to hurt me, only hurt yourself. (Spiritually speaking of course.)

I believe we should follow what the Bible says, not the Pope. But you are free to follow whom ever you choose.

1. Paul was a godly Jew under the law and believed himself to be blameless.

2. But after his conversion he perceived the law to be "spiritual" (Rom 7:14) and not physical. Therefore all his law keeping had been in vain and instead of being blameless he was actually condemned by the law. (Rom 7:10)

3. When Paul understood this he entered a third phase in which he now knew he was "dead to the law by the body of Christ," (Rom 7:4) and by the power of the indwelling Spirit was, "free from the law of sin and death" (Rom 8:2) while at the same time, "the righteousness of the law" was being wrought in him (not by him) through the indwelling spirit of Christ that resides in those who live according to the Spirit, and not according to human nature. (Rom 8:4)

(Romans 7 is the record of past conflicts and defeats as experienced by a man renewed under the new law in Christ.)

 

[Endoscopy]

So given that, ((we believe the Bible, right??)) what does this literally say:

Leviticus 20:10
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

?

The Bible states we are under our government. Back then it was kings. In Israel stoning was accepted. Muslims in certain areas do it today. A woman accused of adultry is wrapped tightly in a blanked put in a hole that has her shoulders and head above ground and the dirt packed in. If she can escape before being killed she is considered innocent.

 

[beta]

I am not against any law. the Law is good. but, the Law was given to Israel only at Sinai. as I pointed out yesterday, Paul in Romans 2 clearly says " gentiles do not have the law."

if you choose to keep the Sabbath, then fine. but, it is not a requirement of N.T. believers .

the simplest way to answer your question is this- in the Bible, Malachi ends, then a couple of blank pages, then the words NEW TESTAMENT , then a few more blank pages, meaning a new thing. not a continuation of the old.

so, back to my point, Christanity is not Judaism .

Israel coming out of Egypt consisted of a mixed multitude all hearing the same law common to all Ex 12. God never had different laws for those who chose to identify with Israel HIS people....that is why the Sabbath applies to all of them. It does of course NOT apply to any that choose to keep themselves separate....which would include pagans,heathens, gentiles and christians. That is the simple explanation.
As to whether or not Sabbath is commanded for christians in the NT you will be happy to hear that it is NOT !
But before you rejoice....we have the walking living example of the real true Jesus who DID keep the Sabbath and the Commandments of God ! since christians have chosen to follow the judean Bible and teach from it one would rightly assume they would also walk in the steps of Jesus who is the one his Father told us 'to hear !!! cont in next post.

 

[PS]

Israel coming out of Egypt consisted of a mixed multitude all hearing the same law common to all Ex 12. God never had different laws for those who chose to identify with Israel HIS people....that is why the Sabbath applies to all of them. It does of course NOT apply to any that choose to keep themselves separate....which would include pagans,heathens, gentiles and christians. That is the simple explanation.
As to whether or not Sabbath is commanded for christians in the NT you will be happy to hear that it is NOT !
But before you rejoice....we have the walking living example of the real true Jesus who DID keep the Sabbath and the Commandments of God ! since christians have chosen to follow the judean Bible and teach from it one would rightly assume they would also walk in the steps of Jesus who is the one his Father told us 'to hear !!! cont in next post.

He didn't, He worked.

 

[beta]

the real Jesus kept the law perfectly . only person to ever do so. so, His sacrifice, one for all, is a perfect sacrifice.

the questions you are asking are not relevant to Christians. there are plenty of N.T. instructions as to how a believer is to behave. all of the 10 except Sabbath are clearly commanded.

I tell you again- God the father " this is my beloved Son. hear Him". the Father did not say " hear me through Him". He said hear HIM.

I do. do you?

Yes there are plenty instructions of how a believer is to behave....since when have people ever obeyed anything that was told them ??? Not since Adam !
So God had His Son come down 'in person to be our living walking example...and what did they do ? they killed him...they did not, do not reverence Him even this day ,see parable Mat 21v37.

In the NT today we are in a period of 'freewill and grace when no Commandments/laws are FORCED on people as in OT and did not work. Do you really think God would go back to the same method and system of COMMANDING against our free will ? NO ! Now we show God by our own free choice whether or not we agree with HIM in how things are done...Jesus the same yesterday, today and forever as our example !!! HE kept the Sabbath and the Commandments as our EXAMPLE...not instead of us!

 

[beta]

He didn't, He worked.

Don't you see any difference between doing the work of GOD and doing our own works ?
you are not sugesting Jesus worked on carpentry on the Sabbath ?

 

[gb9]

Yes there are plenty instructions of how a believer is to behave....since when have people ever obeyed anything that was told them ??? Not since Adam !
So God had His Son come down 'in person to be our living walking example...and what did they do ? they killed him...they did not, do not reverence Him even this day ,see parable Mat 21v37.

In the NT today we are in a period of 'freewill and grace when no Commandments/laws are FORCED on people as in OT and did not work. Do you really think God would go back to the same method and system of COMMANDING against our free will ? NO ! Now we show God by our own free choice whether or not we agree with HIM in how things are done...Jesus the same yesterday, today and forever as our example !!! HE kept the Sabbath and the Commandments as our EXAMPLE...not instead of us!

I think what we really have here is a split over this- does Jesus save, or does Jesus give us a chance to be saved, and it is up to us to do our part by keeping the commands/ law.

I think that Jesus saves. then, then through the Sprit, we are sanctified . I believe the words of Paul- we are saved ( part tense, as in already done) by grace, through faith , for good works.

the fruits of the Sprit are what Christians are supposed to manifest.

 

[oldethennew]

Thank You, Beta, for sharing your Love and wisdom and understanding with such grace -
it's greatly appreciated...


JOHN 8:28.
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up The Son of man, then shall ye know that I Am He,
and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father hath taught Me, I speak these things.

13:15.
For I have given you an Example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

 

[beta]

I think what we really have here is a split over this- does Jesus save, or does Jesus give us a chance to be saved, and it is up to us to do our part by keeping the commands/ law.

I think that Jesus saves. then, then through the Sprit, we are sanctified . I believe the words of Paul- we are saved ( part tense, as in already done) by grace, through faith , for good works.

the fruits of the Sprit are what Christians are supposed to manifest.

It can get complicated when we start nit-picking. My general belief is that ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER for our good ...as long as Christ is at the head of it. God bless...taking a break now...picking up my own work again.

 

[posthuman]

(Romans 7 is the record of past conflicts and defeats as experienced by a man renewed under the new law in Christ.)

One slight issue with this view is that Romans 7 is written entirely in present tense.

Many people take the view that Paul is writing about someone else here, perhaps a hypothetical person for the sake of argument. Similarly however a sticking point is the fact that the chapter is all in first person.

 

[Endoscopy]

One slight issue with this view is that Romans 7 is written entirely in present tense.

Many people take the view that Paul is writing about someone else here, perhaps a hypothetical person for the sake of argument. Similarly however a sticking point is the fact that the chapter is all in first person.

It is obvious that you don't understand tenses in Greek. I did some study of Greek syntax. The tense in Greek is present going into the future. English doesn't have a tense equivalent of this. Greek doesn't have English type tenses. We have three tenses and Greek has 6. Creates a huge problem for translators.

 

[PS]

One slight issue with this view is that Romans 7 is written entirely in present tense.

Many people take the view that Paul is writing about someone else here, perhaps a hypothetical person for the sake of argument. Similarly however a sticking point is the fact that the chapter is all in first person.

Paul is speaking about himself, it was his personal testimony. He found eternal life, not in keeping the law, but in Christ Jesus.

 

[Endoscopy]

Paul is speaking about himself, it was his personal testimony. He found eternal life, not in keeping the law, but in Christ Jesus.

Read my previous post about Greek tenses.

Oops I misspoke Greek has more complications and tenses.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs

 

[Endoscopy]

Stupid 5 minute rule
The Greek tenses etc. create a major hurdle to try and accurately translate into English. They have 7 plus different modifications English has three. Many of them would take an explanation of the difference between the Greek and English tenses. It is a translators nightmare!! Have fun learning about them.

 

[posthuman]

It is obvious that you don't understand tenses in Greek. I did some study of Greek syntax. The tense in Greek is present going into the future. English doesn't have a tense equivalent of this. Greek doesn't have English type tenses. We have three tenses and Greek has 6. Creates a huge problem for translators.

You are right that I don't know Greek. But I can gather enough to see that, as you said, Romans 7 is definitely not written in a form of past tense.

What you point out about the tense indicating present, ongoing action/status ((rather than a simple present)) is an even bigger obstacle to interpreting what he writes as being in reference to singularly past events, isn't it?

I'm familiar with the common view that Paul is purely talking about past struggle and failures w/regard to sin here, and I understand the motivation for wishing to read and teach it this way, but as much as I can ((dimly, for sure)) make from the Greek, just by simple research, the grammar in the text really doesn't support that view.

Is that correct?

 

[posthuman]

Paul is speaking about himself, it was his personal testimony. He found eternal life, not in keeping the law, but in Christ Jesus.

And if what he writes in ch. 7 is indeed as the grammar itself indicates, that life is not measured by the deeds and desires of the flesh, but by the Spirit at work and living in him. By faith, not works. Because if this is a present and ongoing struggle, the will of the flesh vs the will of the spirit, and he ((we)) still find ourselves doing what we do not want to do, and not doing what we want to do, measuring our life by the deeds of the body ((works)) results in death, not life.

Who will save me from this body of death?
Praise God, Jesus Christ!
therefore there is no more condemnation for anyone who is found in Him.

However if it's only with reference to a pre salvation past, then at this moment & all future moments, buddy you'd better be 100% perfect, heart mind and flesh at all times. Which is no salvation at all