Baptism and holy spirit

Noose · May 19, 2018

Bro, i don't want you to fall for the scam, in 1 Cor 14, there's no way Paul is encouraging speaking of unintelligible words.

1 Cor 14: 1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[SUP]a[/SUP] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[SUP]b[/SUP] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[SUP]c[/SUP] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

6[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? [/FONT]7[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? [/FONT]8[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? [/FONT]9[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. [/FONT]10[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. [/FONT]11[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. [/FONT]12[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.[/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What Paul is referring to in the first part is this:[/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rom 8:[/FONT]26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Even though Paul refers to this as speaking in tongues, this is a personal affair. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The scam that people do today, is what Paul was refuting in the second part of 1 Cor 14. It doesn't edify the church in anyway.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Don't be alarmed when i call it a scam, i have done my research and i know of what i'm speaking of. These are some facts that show it is a scam and not mysteries:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1. Mysteries of God can not be put in a program; The so called tongues being spoken today are uttered on Sundays, at around 0900hrs during the prayers and petitions program just before tithe giving program. It also means, it is initiated by the preacher and there's someone checking their watch the tongues won't go 10 minutes longer than the schedule. IOW, "..today, we will delay speaking in tongues by 10 minutes because our visitors took more time.."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2. The words are clearly crammed and stored safely somewhere in our brains to be unleashed on Sunday at 0900hrs. It will always start with a B and end with an O for one person, and always start with a K and end with a T for another, but of course they throw some Rs and Zs in between, if you have ever noticed. Means, each person has their own specific way of speaking the 'mysteries' but the mysteries seem to be the same week in, week out.

[/FONT]Please, don't associate such with God.

And concerning speaking of known language but being heard in different languages by hearers:

Acts 2:7In wonder and amazement, they asked, “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,

KelbyofGod · May 19, 2018

Noose,

Thanks. I honestly appreciate your concern for my welfare.

I've actually had "speaking in tongues" for about 30 years (yes, probably a kind you think could be a scam) and can also say I've made a lot of mistakes. But it's not a scam. (brb. gotta check something)

Noose · May 19, 2018

KelbyofGod said:

I know of what i say, i've been through it myself; i bet my 'speaking in tongues' was dramatic than yours. I don't know about yours but mine was more of psychological pressure than anything. Being prayed for and laying of hands for weeks at our CU (Christian Union) in high school but i was the only one who was not 'falling' and bursting in a 'new tongue'. As a young man, it put me under pressure- i thought i was an agent of satan whose work was to put preachers to shame coz how could they concentrate their 'powers' on me and i felt nothing?

With so much pressure, i gave in one day, fell down, tears rolling, came up uttering words that started with an O and ended with Rss, threw some Zss in their to the applause of the congregation. It was euphoric to have the feeling of unleashing my new language every Wednesday night.

I now know better.

KelbyofGod · May 19, 2018

Noose,

The shortest way I can say it is basically, it doesn't make sense to us... (not just the words, but the concept of WILLINGLY saying stuff we don't understand) so the only way to really understand that this is what God intends for us... is to pray.

Some people have had God speak to them, so they know he still does. I don't know if you're one of those people so you might have what I call 'first time obstacle'...which is this--> "Since I haven't experienced God talking to me so far, all evidence in my life is that he doesn't (either doesn't at all, or doesn't for me) so, how can I KNOW he will speak to me if all evidence so far is that he doesn't?" Secondly, "How would he answer?" and "How would I know it is him?".

I'm saying that because contrary to what many say in here, it is NOT a good idea to think we can figure it out simply by reading and or studying the original languages. That's "leaning on our own understanding".

Sometimes we need God to step up and be God... speaking to us to clarify things.... (which is a common purpose of prophecy, btw). But if you don't think prophecy still exists, perhaps you can still believe that "My sheep hear my voice" which means God still is willing to speak DIRECTLY to his children. Maybe you don't want to ask about speaking in tongues right now, but I'd think you'd want to let God speak to you about SOMETHING in his word. If God would speak to Moses face-to-face as a man speaks with his friend in the OLD covenant where there was a veil between us and God...how much more would God like to speak with his children now?

Honestly, I'd love to see your face if/when he sends a prophet your way and tells you the very thoughts of your heart. That experience is why in 1 Corinthians 14:25 it says they would fall on their faces... because the prophets will speak things out loud that you've only said to God in your heart...(and they'll answer the questions too, because it's God giving them both your questions and the answers)

One problem in churches today is that too many of them have "first time obstacle" and decide to teach it as if it's supposed to stay that way. However, in teaching 1 Corinthians 14 (if they teach it at all) they clearly reject the commandment to "covet to prophesy" <--(that's the action, btw). And again reject the commandment in 1 Thess. 5:20 "Despise not prophesyings" <--(again, that's the action). So if they don't do "greater is he that prophesieth" and they don't do the lesser "than he that speaketh in tongues" why are they bothering to teach on it at all? ...and of course, they often don't. They say all the gifts died with the first disciples... and they unwittingly fulfill 2 Peter 3:4.

Feel free to ask or comment.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Faith101 · May 19, 2018

I think some or most are missing the point of the Holy Spirit. In the old testament God placed his spirit ON people. Their sin was covered and could not connect with his chosen vessels. Only in, I think, Zachariah, was a vessel pure for his spirit to enter.
Than Jesus came and at his baptism he received the spirit. He was 30 at this time and this is when he received the spirit and he was clearly saved all his life. And remember he came to set an example. I'm not certain if Jesus had gifts before he connected with the spirit of God or not but he did come to earth just as us and to grow us as and show us it can be done. He had to learn and study as we did. But his earthy father, Joseph, does leave the picture of his life sometime during his upbringing so if he had gifts than, than why does he seem to have died or have left? Lots of questions but another time.
Back to the baptism of Jesus. This is when he received the spirit and the spirit guides his life. The first place it took him was up to be tempted of Satan. Prob not a place he wanted to go but God don't send his spirit to lead us where we want but rather where we need to go.
Now after the death and resurrection things are different than in the old testament. The spirit can come in us and we can connect with that spirit of God. The day of Pentecost was the beginning of the New. Jesus death gave us a stronger connection with God. Jesus said I just go so that the comforter can come. We are living in the time of the Holy Spirit. The gifts are obtainable to us. All of them. I don't believe u gotta have tongues to have his spirit. It's no different than the other gifts. I don't believe all these people that have tongues truly have it either. (I am Pentecostal). Some will put on a show.

Faith101 · May 19, 2018

That's short and not detailed but it would take pages to get it all in.

KelbyofGod · May 19, 2018

Noose said:

Noose,

Ah. You've had one of those high pressure things... I wish I had a quick "fix it" button, but I won't pretend. And I don't know if you actually spoke in tongues or not. I’m guessing you’d like to not rely on my opinion as a reliable indicator anyway.

I do know that I was one of those people who also didn't know how or what I was supposed to do and couldn’t figure out why I had a hard time with what seemed easy for others. My pressure, however, was internal rather than external. I knew I needed it but 1) I didn't know how it was supposed to happen...and 2) I was NOT going to fake it.

So someone said "Try saying this" and spoke a 'sentence' in tongues. I did, but some syllables came out differently. and they said "See, you've got it" and told me to thank God. (similar to your situation). Well, that's all I had for what seemed like months but may only have been weeks...while I freaked out thinking I don't have something I need. I wasn't brave/bold enough to declare “God didn’t give me what I asked for” but in my opinion “speaking in tongues” means FLUENTLY, not repeating some ‘sentence’ that I memorized almost instantly.

Skipping the details, it was weeks later when God finally got me in a LOW pressure setting and was able to get the “fluently” part to me. Now I know what they were talking about, and that’s why I can say it’s not a scam.

I don’t have words for the displeasure I feel even thinking of those high-pressure situations that churches will occasionally force on to people...but it’s important to clarify the difference between what MAN is doing WRONG and what God is trying to do RIGHT.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

KelbyofGod · May 19, 2018

Faith101 said:

Faith101,
Your post was fine.

Thanks for joining the conversation.

I'm going to try to always be honest on here... only attempting to be cautious not to cast my pearls before swine and end up getting bitten.

So... in honesty...

It wouldn't surprise me at all to meet someone who wants tongues but doesn't know how to get it...and instead gathers a few syllables they can put together and repeat. Some might do that as an act of faith...trying to be obedient. And others might do that in pretense (pretending) in order to APPEAR to have something they don't because their heart isn't right (in more ways than one).

I've heard some say that there is a false tongues, but I've not knowingly seen that personally, nor have I prayed sincerely about it to where God would clarify the possibility of it to me. Besides the idea that I likely wouldn't know the difference between unknown tongues and Swahili (which is also an unknown language to me)...I don't listen much to other people praying/speaking in tongues because I won't be the one giving account for what THEY do.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

KelbyofGod · May 19, 2018

One reason why tongues is almost always mentioned in threads related to the Holy Ghost...

1 Corinthians 14:14 states "if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth". This clarifies that speaking in tongues is praying in the spirit.

Some say that other things are praying in the spirit but where is a biblical statement that backs up their doctrine?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Faith101 · May 19, 2018

KelbyofGod said:

Bible says to judge them by their fruits. It's important for us to be able to discern who is real in Christ and who is not. A person who is there as a type of Pharisee, for the 'glory', won't be the one to help u grow. We need to latch up to our brothers and sisters in Christ but we should be careful whom we grow with.
One person can spoil the vine. I watched a church with a great spirit drown itself because it's pastor told them they was all failing because they weren't speaking in tongues and falling out. So miraculously they all started doing it... That does not glorify God. Everything should be to glorify him.

Noose · May 19, 2018

KelbyofGod said:

There are more reasons to believe it is a scam. In your argument, you completely ignore the season and times we are in. In different ages, God dealt with people differently:

During the prophets and the law- God spoke physically to the prophets/ Judges/Priests/Angels/ Animals and even inanimate objects. That time ended with John.

Jesus/Messiah's age- Jesus (who is God), spoke to us and worked miracles. It is His salvation works and words that form the gospel of the kingdom for all. His ministry lasted 3.5 years.

Disciples and Apostles age- Their mandate was to spread the gospel to every nation as a witness to all before the coming of the lawless one. It is for this reason the antichrist was held so that they could spread the gospel to all tribes. Their working was accompanied by signs and wonders which helped them spread the gospel ( they are the two witnesses). Amongst the signs and wonders include but not limited to; raising of the dead/ healing/speaking in tongues/ picking up snakes and not succumbing to deadly poison- until the work was done.

The antichrist/lawlessness age- These are the end times we are living in. The antichrist's first order of events was to kill the two witnesses (The disciples and apostles).
In these end times, God has already spoken to us through His son- so don't believe anyone who comes and say they have a word of prophesy or something. It is the scripture/ Gospel that guides us in all we do.

We know that the coming of the lawless one is also accompanied by signs and wonder and God being not a God of confusion, can not be doing miracles on one side and antichrist on the other side thereby creating confusion. Jesus cursed and said a perverse generation is after signs and wonders and they won't get none. We know how the antichrist works the signs and wonders- The beast of the sea appoints another beast on the earth who has two horns like that of a lamb.

The last statement is very important, 'two horns like that of a lamb' means the antichrist's lies and fake signs and wonders are being performed right in the church and no other place.

When God says, "...even if it were possible, the elect will fall for the lies.." Trust, it means just that, the elect will fall but are only saved by the grace.
And how many times did Jesus have to warn people?

"..let no man deceive you.../ many shall come in my name and deceive many../... Many false prophets shall appear, deceiving and being deceived..." Trust me, when Jesus says many, He means many.

In these end times, the Holy spirit is to teach us and guide us, even if there are some signs and wonders, they are not for public declaration because the kingdom of God is hidden treasure, not for the world.
Patience, endurance and humility is what God has asked of us in these end times, not public declarations of signs and wonders- take note.

Lewiz · May 19, 2018

Noose said:

Bro, i don't want you to fall for the scam, in 1 Cor 14, there's no way Paul is encouraging speaking of unintelligible words.

1 Cor 14: 1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[SUP]a[/SUP] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[SUP]b[/SUP] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[SUP]c[/SUP] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

6Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

What Paul is referring to in the first part is this:

Rom 8:26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Even though Paul refers to this as speaking in tongues, this is a personal affair.
The scam that people do today, is what Paul was refuting in the second part of 1 Cor 14. It doesn't edify the church in anyway.

Don't be alarmed when i call it a scam, i have done my research and i know of what i'm speaking of. These are some facts that show it is a scam and not mysteries:

1. Mysteries of God can not be put in a program; The so called tongues being spoken today are uttered on Sundays, at around 0900hrs during the prayers and petitions program just before tithe giving program. It also means, it is initiated by the preacher and there's someone checking their watch the tongues won't go 10 minutes longer than the schedule. IOW, "..today, we will delay speaking in tongues by 10 minutes because our visitors took more time.."

2. The words are clearly crammed and stored safely somewhere in our brains to be unleashed on Sunday at 0900hrs. It will always start with a B and end with an O for one person, and always start with a K and end with a T for another, but of course they throw some Rs and Zs in between, if you have ever noticed. Means, each person has their own specific way of speaking the 'mysteries' but the mysteries seem to be the same week in, week out.

Please, don't associate such with God.

And concerning speaking of known language but being heard in different languages by hearers:

Acts 2:7In wonder and amazement, they asked, “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,

S
So what do you think about Pentecostals?

Noose · May 19, 2018

Lewiz said:

It's about times and seasons
Luke 19:44They will level you to the ground — you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another,because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.”

You need to recognize the times we are in, Pentecostals was another time.

Lewiz · May 19, 2018

Noose said:

I don't doubt for a moment what you went thru. There are many churches doing this now, especially charismatic & some Pentecostal churches. Bethel churches are a good example, also UPC, Apostolic, Vineyard, Hillsong, etc.

That said, this doesn't mean they're all bad, or that all of it is fake.

There is a false spirit of worship creeping into the church. Many mega churches are into this.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; [SUP]4 [/SUP] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

1 Timothy 4:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(7) But refuse profane and old wives’ fables.—Here Timothy—who has been previously (see 1Timothy 4:1-6) warned against a false asceticism, against putting an unnatural interpretation on the words of Christ, against sympathising with a teaching which would unfit men and women for practical every-day life—is now urged to guard himself against the temptation to give himself up to the favourite and apparently enticing study of the sayings of the famous Jewish Rabbis, in which every book, almost every word—in many cases the letters of the Hebrew Scriptures—were subjected to a keen but profitless investigation. In such study the spirit of the holy writers was too often lost, and only a dry and barren formalism—commands respecting the tithing of mint, and anise, and cummin—remained, while the weightier matters of the law—judgment, justice, and truth—were carefully sifted out.

Such is modern theology relating to the things of the Spirit. You've experienced it, and it has burned you.

I was the same way in the Pentecostal church I was saved in, with the tongues that did nothing but gave a feel-good.

I was also burned on prophecy as well because of all the prophecy preachers on TV.

You see, these false teachers /spirits will either burn you to run from the real, or they'll suck you in to all the false spiritual things. Both will lead us away from the gifts & true worship in the Spirit.

Lewiz · May 19, 2018

Too bad this thread's ending......... it was very informative & peaceful.

OneFaith · May 20, 2018

soberxp said:

You can rrecievereceive (see how these typos keep happening to me on this tablet? Urgh). You can receive the Holy Spirit before or after baptism, but you WILL receive the Holy Spirit, it just doesnt say when, but the Holy Spirit does not save you- only Christ's blood does- which our hearts are circumcised with during baptism. Saul, the first kiss of (see- I typed the word 'king' and it was changed to 'kiss', urgh). Saul, the first king of Israel had God's Spirit taken away from him, because he stopped obeying God, therefore Christ's blood would not cover him, so God took away the Holy Spirit which marked him for salvation.

You know how at some restaurants you pay after you receive your meal, and at other restaurants you pay before you receive your meal? Well, obviously those in the old testament received the Holy Spirit before Christ made payment for their sins. Were they saved? Revelation lists 144,000 who were saved from the old testament. They were saved because they obeyed God according to the covenant they were under. And God chooses to give grace to those who obey Him. Time is irrelevant to God. So don't marvel at someone receiving the Holy Spirit before, during, or after baptism. Jesus died only one time- for all in the past who obeyed God, and for all in the future who would obey God.

KelbyofGod · May 20, 2018

Noose said:

Noose,
It wasn't an argument, I was just testifying of what I've seen, heard experienced and learned.

And, as for why I would disregard "seasons and times" there are 2 reasons:

1. Jesus said "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." Acts 1:7

2. Are these "ages" listed in the bible somewhere so I can look them up...or are they just man-made? (please be honest with that one)

Still with Love in Jesus,
Kelby

KelbyofGod · May 20, 2018

Faith101 said:

Faith101,
Thank you for the good advice to be cautious about the type of person we choose to interact with.

I'd started to comment about the pastor presumedly pressuring the church wrongly. but each time I tried to point out a potentially decent reason for his action it just sounded like I was defending his failings...and that isn't what I was trying to do.. so I just dropped it

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Noose · May 20, 2018

KelbyofGod said:

Jesus was answering a specific question about the hour of His coming; about the hour, no one knows, not the son (authority of the son) or angels, only the Father but generally, you should be aware of the times and seasons because the antichrist tries to change the times and season and hide them from believers (read Daniel).

Luke 19:41As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes.43The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side.44They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”
1Thess 5;3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief.5For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

It is in Daniel that the calendar for the times and seasons is prophesied (70 weeks), through out till the end of the ages. And when Jesus was asked about the end times, He referred them back to Daniel to understand what was prophesied and also understand the times and seasons:

Matt 24:15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),..

IOW, if you are able to know the time/season, then you can tell what is happening and what can't happen.
You have asked me to be honest and i repeat again, i know what i'm talking about. Whatever i say is not guess work.

Noose · May 20, 2018

KelbyofGod said:

All i'm saying is, i don't want people to fall into this group:

Matt 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

From their arguments above, these people truly thought they did all these miracles through God. These are the signs and wonders that i'm talking about being performed right in the churches- the healing/the raising of dead/ the talking of tongues/ e.t.c
This is antichrist's time to rule and he comes with a bag full of tricks that even the elect fall for,
This is what is needed for us at this time:

Revelation 13:10
"If anyone is destined for captivity, into captivity he will go; If anyone is to die by the sword, by the sword he must be killed." Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints.

Baptism and holy spirit

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