Baptism and holy spirit

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KelbyofGod

Senior Member
#101
Oct 8, 2017
1,881
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#101
Stunnedbygrace said:
What? Am I perfect ahead of you? I never have an outburst of temper or the pride of hurt feelings?
If a church got to know me, they could see if I was fairly consistent in fruit. But if you declared me saved based on tongues, I may be faking it and you have not helped me but rather harmed me. And if I then left and didn't come back, you have not helped me but harmed me.
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Stunnedbygrace,

I told you that considering tongues as an indicator would make a person feel dangerously vulnerable... a VERY uncomfortable feeling. When faced with an uncomfortable feeling the natural tendency is to run.. which is what most did when Jesus shared a spiritual truth using a natural example (his flesh and blood) in John 6. it was difficult to fathom and hard to picture so most of his disciples quit...but not all.

Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Jesus didn't back down just because some leave. He knew he spoke truth. What I tell you is also the truth. It won't change if you depart. I rather encourage you to hang on and let God teach you what you don't yet see.

Please consider your screen name Stunnedbygrace. Stunned perhaps, but not killed. :)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#102
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
83
#102
My $.02..

Tongues cannot be faked. Oh, I suppose that if someone was bilingual, and wanted to trick people into thinking they were speaking in tongues by speaking their other known language, that might be considered to be "faking it". But speaking in tongues, where a person speaks a language he does not know as inspired by the Holy Spirit, can't be faked.

While I believe that every Christian has the ability to speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:7), and that God wants us to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5), most Christians do NOT speak in tongues, I believe primarily due to ignorance. Most Christians quite simply don't know what it is, or they're afraid of it, afraid of doing something that might not be "right". It doesn't mean they are not Christian, or that they do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit living in them.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#103
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#103
KelbyofGod said:
Stunnedbygrace,

I told you that considering tongues as an indicator would make a person feel dangerously vulnerable... a VERY uncomfortable feeling. When faced with an uncomfortable feeling the natural tendency is to run.. which is what most did when Jesus shared a spiritual truth using a natural example (his flesh and blood) in John 6. it was difficult to fathom and hard to picture so most of his disciples quit...but not all.

Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Jesus didn't back down just because some leave. He knew he spoke truth. What I tell you is also the truth. It won't change if you depart. I rather encourage you to hang on and let God teach you what you don't yet see.

Please consider your screen name Stunnedbygrace. Stunned perhaps, but not killed. :)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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I'm not leaving and I'm not uncomfortable. :)

But, no, what you have said is NOT true. And I know it isn't because I have received the Spirit yet I never spoke in tongues. It wasn't a slow awareness as some testify. It was a sudden and unmistakable receiving. So...there was never any question of a wondering if I'd received. Yet you are telling me I did not meet God because I don't meet your one criterium. And it doesn't make me upset, but you can see I have to speak, because you are saying something I know for a fact to be untrue. You are saying I could not have possibly received the Spirit.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#104
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#104
shrume said:
My $.02..

Tongues cannot be faked. Oh, I suppose that if someone was bilingual, and wanted to trick people into thinking they were speaking in tongues by speaking their other known language, that might be considered to be "faking it". But speaking in tongues, where a person speaks a language he does not know as inspired by the Holy Spirit, can't be faked.

While I believe that every Christian has the ability to speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:7), and that God wants us to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5), most Christians do NOT speak in tongues, I believe primarily due to ignorance. Most Christians quite simply don't know what it is, or they're afraid of it, afraid of doing something that might not be "right". It doesn't mean they are not Christian, or that they do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit living in them.
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I'm not afraid of it, I just never experienced it. But it flummoxes me that anyone would then say I have not met God because He didn't cause it to happen to me. It's almost silly to me to try to convince a woman who has walked with God for almost 12 years that she has only imagined having met Him. :D
 
K

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
#105
Oct 8, 2017
1,881
721
113
#105
Stunnedbygrace said:
Well of course you haven't knowingly witnessed it...that's my point.
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Stunnedbygrace,

That's a fair point, but overlooks the value of prayer and God's ability to reveal.

(I have to reveal something about myself to make this point...) When I was mayor of my home town, I had the inkling that something was amiss in the clerk's office. I often spoke freely with the chief of police, including about God stuff, and told him what I was feeling. He mentioned his 30 years experience (not in this town) and said this clerk is no crook. I told him plainly that I had no evidence of any wrongdoing, but I'd learned to trust God when he put that unction in my heart, so I was going to pray about it...and told him that if there was nothing wrong, God would reveal that to me but, if there was, it would come to light and there was no way for it to be kept hidden. Soon enough the wrongdoing was exposed (not by me or him) and it was able to be dealt with accordingly.

God hasn't stopped revealing hidden things. I live in a rural-type area without hundreds or thousands of people coming to church every week, so there are only so many people I've been exposed to, with little reason for someone to fake tongues. But God is willing to alert me when something is amiss in the natural, and so far he seems even more inclined to alert me about spiritual dangers. Just because I may not have run across it yet, doesn't mean I won't.

Besides, when someone gets tongues, that's not the only thing they get. Other things are given that just aren't available before that. It doesn't take too long before those things start to become evident as well.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#106
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#106
Something else occurs to me. You say you hate that people get pressured to speak in tongues in some places, while simultaneously telling people they aren't saved until they do. Do you see that you are creating what you say you hate...?
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#107
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
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#107
KelbyofGod said:
Stunnedbygrace,

That's a fair point, but overlooks the value of prayer and God's ability to reveal.

(I have to reveal something about myself to make this point...) When I was mayor of my home town, I had the inkling that something was amiss in the clerk's office. I often spoke freely with the chief of police, including about God stuff, and told him what I was feeling. He mentioned his 30 years experience (not in this town) and said this clerk is no crook. I told him plainly that I had no evidence of any wrongdoing, but I'd learned to trust God when he put that unction in my heart, so I was going to pray about it...and told him that if there was nothing wrong, God would reveal that to me but, if there was, it would come to light and there was no way for it to be kept hidden. Soon enough the wrongdoing was exposed (not by me or him) and it was able to be dealt with accordingly.

God hasn't stopped revealing hidden things. I live in a rural-type area without hundreds or thousands of people coming to church every week, so there are only so many people I've been exposed to, with little reason for someone to fake tongues. But God is willing to alert me when something is amiss in the natural, and so far he seems even more inclined to alert me about spiritual dangers. Just because I may not have run across it yet, doesn't mean I won't.

Besides, when someone gets tongues, that's not the only thing they get. Other things are given that just aren't available before that. It doesn't take too long before those things start to become evident as well.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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Once again, you say there is no reason for someone to fake tongues while you simultaneously withhold salvation from them until they do speak in tongues.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#108
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
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#108
Oh kelby, this is an unwise path to travel. You assume no one has ever been faking it (despite the pressure of "no tongues, no saving) but now you think no one has ever faked in your presence what you say they have to do to be saved because God never revealed to you that anyone was faking...?
 
K

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
#109
Oct 8, 2017
1,881
721
113
#109
Stunnedbygrace said:
I'm not afraid of it, I just never experienced it. But it flummoxes me that anyone would then say I have not met God because He didn't cause it to happen to me. It's almost silly to me to try to convince a woman who has walked with God for almost 12 years that she has only imagined having met Him. :D
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Why would you think I question any experiences you've had with God? There is no biblical requirement of a person to have the Holy Ghost before God will talk with them or do things for them. He spoke to me quite clearly once when I was just a child and knew not much. That's one of the reasons I tell people to pray until God answers them. (not all in one sitting, but don't let him off the hook until he moves).

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#110
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
#110
KelbyofGod said:
Why would you think I question any experiences you've had with God? There is no biblical requirement of a person to have the Holy Ghost before God will talk with them or do things for them. He spoke to me quite clearly once when I was just a child and knew not much. That's one of the reasons I tell people to pray until God answers them. (not all in one sitting, but don't let him off the hook until he moves).

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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So you don't question I've experienced God but you are willing to declare I'm not saved because I've not received the Spirit because I've never met your one criterium. It's just so unwise kelby.
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#111
Mar 13, 2014
42,595
17,058
113
69
Tennessee
#111
shrume said:
My $.02..

Tongues cannot be faked. Oh, I suppose that if someone was bilingual, and wanted to trick people into thinking they were speaking in tongues by speaking their other known language, that might be considered to be "faking it". But speaking in tongues, where a person speaks a language he does not know as inspired by the Holy Spirit, can't be faked.

While I believe that every Christian has the ability to speak in tongues (1 Cor 12:7), and that God wants us to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5), most Christians do NOT speak in tongues, I believe primarily due to ignorance. Most Christians quite simply don't know what it is, or they're afraid of it, afraid of doing something that might not be "right". It doesn't mean they are not Christian, or that they do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit living in them.
Click to expand...
No one has the ability to speak in tongues unless it was a gift given to them by the Holy Spirit. Speaking in tongues is not indicative on whether or not a person is a Christian as there are many other gifts that are given to serve an express purpose on our humble service to the Lord. That is what the verse of ! Cor 12:7 is referring to, not just tongues but spiritual gifts in general.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#112
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
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#112
You've changed - repent and be saved to repent, speak in tongues and be saved. You should not put any more on a man than God Himself has. It's not good for you to go this path.
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#113
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
83
#113
Stunnedbygrace said:
I'm not afraid of it, I just never experienced it. But it flummoxes me that anyone would then say I have not met God because He didn't cause it to happen to me. It's almost silly to me to try to convince a woman who has walked with God for almost 12 years that she has only imagined having met Him. :D
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In my opinion, this is another thing that Christians do not understand. God will not cause you to speak in tongues. He does not possess people. When you were born again, you received the ability to speak in tongues.

It's up to you to learn what it is, and do it. If you don't want to, there's nothing anyone can do about it.
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#114
Jun 26, 2017
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#114
tourist said:
No one has the ability to speak in tongues unless it was a gift given to them by the Holy Spirit.
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1 Cor 12:
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Speaking in tongues is not indicative on whether or not a person is a Christian as there are many other gifts that are given to serve an express purpose on our humble service to the Lord. That is what the verse of ! Cor 12:7 is referring to, not just tongues but spiritual gifts in general.
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1 Cor 12:7 is not speaking of gifts, but of manifestations. There is a difference.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#115
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
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#115
shrume said:
1 Cor 12:
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


1 Cor 12:7 is not speaking of gifts, but of manifestations. There is a difference.
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For a thing to manifest just means it is visibly seen by others. So for a gift to be visibly seen, it does not then follow that all gifts are given to every person.
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#116
Mar 13, 2014
42,595
17,058
113
69
Tennessee
#116
shrume said:
1 Cor 12:
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


1 Cor 12:7 is not speaking of gifts, but of manifestations. There is a difference.
Click to expand...
I agree with your interpretation but the manifestation of gifts could be any gift and not just exclusively the speaking of tongues or the interpretation of such.
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#117
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
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83
#117
Stunnedbygrace said:
For a thing to manifest just means it is visibly seen by others.
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That's right. A manifestation is a "showing", or an evidence, of something.

I have a light bulb. It was given to me as a gift. If I never screw it into a lamp and turn it on, it will never manifest light or heat.


So for a gift to be visibly seen, it does not then follow that all gifts are given to every person.
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Speaking in tongues is not a gift. It is one of the nine manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit. Every Christian has the gift of the Holy Spirit living in them. One of the ways to manifest that gift is to speak in tongues. It's something any Christian can do, whether they know it or not. Most don't know it.
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#118
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
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#118
tourist said:
I agree with your interpretation but the manifestation of gifts could be any gift and not just exclusively the speaking of tongues or the interpretation of such.
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Tongues and interpretation of tongues are not gifts. They are manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 
K

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
#119
Oct 8, 2017
1,881
721
113
#119
Stunnedbygrace said:
Oh kelby, this is an unwise path to travel. You assume no one has ever been faking it (despite the pressure of "no tongues, no saving) but now you think no one has ever faked in your presence what you say they have to do to be saved because God never revealed to you that anyone was faking...?
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Again, you have a good point, but overlook other aspects. For one, I'm basically NOT a trusting person... I only trust one person and that's God... so I pretty much test everything and every claim made that could impact my life...including myself and my beliefs...and even *gasp* God and his word. If he said something and didn't do it, He'd be a liar same as anyone else. The good news with God is that he never fails. :) That's one reason I like him so much. :) He's functional. He actually does things.

As for those around me and those I come in contact with... I'll ask them first, like Paul, then watch and see, using whatever God has taught me up till then.

BTW, if you're worried about me blindly trusting folks, how much scrutiny do you put on people in your group? How many have you found that claim to have the Holy Ghost but don't? Any? And what criteria did you use to make a clear distinction?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#120
Mar 13, 2014
42,595
17,058
113
69
Tennessee
#120
shrume said:
That's right. A manifestation is a "showing", or an evidence, of something.

I have a light bulb. It was given to me as a gift. If I never screw it into a lamp and turn it on, it will never manifest light or heat.



Speaking in tongues is not a gift. It is one of the nine manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit. Every Christian has the gift of the Holy Spirit living in them. One of the ways to manifest that gift is to speak in tongues. It's something any Christian can do, whether they know it or not. Most don't know it.
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Are you saying that each Christian has been given the same exact kinds and number of gifts by the Holy Spirit? I really don't see evidence of this in scripture.
 
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