Baptism and holy spirit

[KelbyofGod]

Huh uh, nonsense. 1) Why did Paul ask some men: did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? 2)If he could be sure just by looking at them, he wouldn't have asked that. 3) And no, 3a) I was NOT talking about the apostles by what I said previously because none of them would have DARED to preach a gospel saying that 3b)without the gift of tongues you could not call Jesus Lord or that 3c)the only way to pray in spirit was in tongues. They would have spoke AGAINST that false gospel.

Stunnedbygrace,

(I added #'s for clear reference)

In all of these discussions I hope that you are able to remember that I am a friend and not an enemy. I have no intention of cutting you down or undermining your faith. (although you might think otherwise at times. )

1) Because he knew that the Holy Ghost is something specific that doesn't automatically come at time of belief.

2) Who said anyone could tell just by looking?? I didn't. But what you should be finding the answer to is "How was it that they COULD tell when a person received the Holy Ghost?".... because that is the reason the (3a) apostles sent Peter and James to pray for those in Samaria...because they KNEW they hadn't received the Holy Ghost EVEN THOUGH they had already received the word of God and were baptized.

3b) I didn't say that, Waggles did. Also I believe that verse to be saying something different than what has been shared about it so far. So in broad terms, I disagree with the way it seems Waggles was using that verse.

3c) There is a verse (1 Corinthians 14:14) that unbreakably bonds 'the-Spirit-praying' with 'speaking-in-tongues'. When speaking in tongues occurs, the spirit IS praying...even when we're doing it out of order. (God cannot deny himself). So it is correct to state that speaking in tongues = praying in the spirit. Others suggest that other actions (sincerity, crying, praying in the understanding, silence, sighing, even the presence of God in the room, etc) are spirit-prayer...but is there a verse that says "If I pray and really mean it, my spirit is praying" ? --or -- "if I pray silently, my spirit is praying" --or-- "if I feel the presence of God, my spirit is praying" - or- "If I groan/cry/weep/moan when i pray, my spirit is praying" ?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

In all of these discussions I hope that you are able to remember that I am a friend and not an enemy. I have no intention of cutting you down or undermining your faith. (although you might think otherwise at times. )

I don't think any of those things.

Because he knew that the Holy Ghost is something specific that doesn't automatically come at time of belief.

Agreed. But we don't agree that one must have the gift of tongues upon receiving the Holy Spirit. Some dont, and some never do, receive this gift/,manifestation. They aren't afraid of it, and some of them seem to even understand it better than some who DO have this gift/manifestation, as evidenced by some of the nonsense avowals from page one of this thread.

) Who said anyone could tell just by looking?? I didn't. But what you should be finding the answer to is "How was it that they COULD tell when a person received the Holy Ghost?".... because that is the reason the (3a) apostles sent Peter and James to pray for those in Samaria...because they KNEW they hadn't received the Holy Ghost EVEN THOUGH they had already received the word of God and were baptized.

that they knew some had not received the Holy Spirit in that case does not mean that Paul knew they hadn't in the case where he asked: did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?

3c) There is a verse (1 Corinthians 14:14) that unbreakably bonds 'the-Spirit-praying' with 'speaking-in-tongues'. When speaking in tongues occurs, the spirit IS praying...even when we're doing it out of order. (God cannot deny himself). So it is correct to state that speaking in tongues = praying in the spirit. Others suggest that other actions (sincerity, crying, praying in the understanding, silence, sighing, even the presence of God in the room, etc) are spirit-prayer...but is there a verse that says "If I pray and really mean it, my spirit is praying" ? --or -- "if I pray silently, my spiritis praying" --or-- "if I feel the presen
ce of God, my spirit is praying" - or- "If I groan/cry/weep/moan when i pray, my spirit is praying" ?

I never stated th at praying in various tongues is not praying/communing in Spirit. It is others though who have said that you cannot possibly pray/commune in Spirit UNLESS you speak in tongues, which I know is false. You aren't telling a purposeful lie when you say it, you do believe it. But you are just wrong. To say when you pray in tongues that you are praying in spirit and without understanding is true. To then make the other leaps you make, such as there is no praying in spirit without tongues, is false.

 

[KelbyofGod]

1) I never stated th at praying in various tongues is not praying/communing in Spirit. 2) It is others though who have said that you cannot possibly pray/commune in Spirit UNLESS you speak in tongues, which I know is false. You aren't telling a purposeful lie when you say it, you do believe it. But you are just wrong. To say when you pray in tongues that you are praying in spirit and without understanding is true. To then make the other leaps you make, such as there is no praying in spirit without tongues, is false.

SBG,

1) I have noticed that you've said this. I believe you in it. And I appreciate it.

2) You have said I am wrong several times, suggesting other things that you believe are praying in the spirit. However, you have not produced any verses that state any of those things are actually the spirit praying. You scolded Roger for only having ONE verse that seemingly supported his idea that the gifts have ceased. Do you really allow yourself to adamantly hold a doctrine without a single verse to support your stance?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

SBG,

1) I have noticed that you've said this. I believe you in it. And I appreciate it.

2) You have said I am wrong several times, suggesting other things that you believe are praying in the spirit. However, you have not produced any verses that state any of those things are actually the spirit praying. You scolded Roger for only having ONE verse that seemingly supported his idea that the gifts have ceased. Do you really allow yourself to adamantly hold a doctrine without a single verse to support your stance?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Yes, I adamantly hold that God would not withhold a gift/manifestation from one of His children that was necessary for communion with Him. Praying in spirit is deep communion with the Lover of my soul. Just because when one prays in various tongues they are praying in Spirit DOES NOT MEAN that you then assume there is no praying in Spirit without this certain gift. It is an overstepping of scripture.

Roger had doctrine with only one witness.
What I am speaking of is ineffable. A...consummation, between two lovers, He and I, in spirit. It doesn't occur without one knowing this ineffable thing has occurred. I have tried to explain as best I could, this ineffable communion that can't be explained, because I have experienced it in prayer - not for long periods of time, but in...a peaking and ebbing throughout prayer.

You, and others, on the other hand, have a verse you say proves you pray in spirit, when tongues can be, and have been, faked at times

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Speaking in various tongues is not what brings you into the Kings chambers. The King extending His scepter and inviting you to touch it is what brings you into His chambers. And yes, He will do that through the gift/manifestation of tongues. And other times, He brings someone to that deep communion without the manifestation of tongues. Do all speak in tongues?

It is the arrogance of youth that would proclaim God has granted a deep communion to it and that if others want to have that deep communion, God is not able to cause it except by one certain way. It is arrogance AND adding to scripture.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It's as if you are peeking into someone elses bridal chambers and announcing to the bride and groom that they are doing it wrong! It's unseemly.

 

[shrume]

Yes, I adamantly hold that God would not withhold a gift/manifestation from one of His children that was necessary for communion with Him. Praying in spirit is deep communion with the Lover of my soul. Just because when one prays in various tongues they are praying in Spirit DOES NOT MEAN that you then assume there is no praying in Spirit without this certain gift. It is an overstepping of scripture.

Where is that definition of "praying in the spirit" defined in the Bible?

Roger had doctrine with only one witness.
What I am speaking of is ineffable. A...consummation, between two lovers, He and I, in spirit. It doesn't occur without one knowing this ineffable thing has occurred. I have tried to explain as best I could, this ineffable communion that can't be explained, because I have experienced it in prayer - not for long periods of time, but in...a peaking and ebbing throughout prayer.

So... "praying in the spirit" is an emotional feeling? Is there someplace in the Bible that shows this?

You, and others, on the other hand, have a verse you say proves you pray in spirit, when tongues can be, and have been, faked at times

I'm curious why you think tongues can be faked.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Where is that definition of "praying in the spirit" defined in the Bible?

It isn't defined in the bible. It's ineffable. It is spoken of, but it isn't defined graphically.

So... "praying in the spirit" is an emotional feeling? Is there someplace in the Bible that shows this?

If you feel no soaring when you are praying in spirit, then you aren't praying in spirit. You don't have deep communion with God in a wooden manner. You can pray sometimes in a wooden manner, but you can NOT pray in spirit in a wooden manner.

I'm curious why you think tongues can be faked.

Any time you have people saying others will never have deep communion with God unless they have the gift of tongues, you WILL see it faked at times.

And we DO have something on earth that shows humanly, speaks of (by what we can see), this glory of God. Because He made EVERYTHING to speak of and show His glory (even this physical communion between husband and wife) albeit in a way that can only speak of it but not really convey it except to say: "it is like..." And we see THAT sometimes faked too!

 

[shrume]

It isn't defined in the bible. It's ineffable. It is spoken of, but it isn't defined graphically.

Where is praying in the spirit spoken of outside the context of speaking in tongues?

If you feel no soaring when you are praying in spirit, then you aren't praying in spirit. You don't have deep communion with God in a wooden manner. You can pray sometimes in a wooden manner, but you can NOT pray in spirit in a wooden manner.

Again, where are you getting these things from?

Any time you have people saying others will never have deep communion with God unless they have the gift of tongues, you WILL see it faked at times.

People can absolutely have a deep communion with God without manifesting tongues.

I'm still curious why you think tongues can be faked.

And we DO have something on earth that shows humanly, speaks of (by what we can see), this glory of God. Because He made EVERYTHING to speak of and show His glory (even this physical communion between husband and wife) albeit in a way that can only speak of it but not really convey it except to say: "it is like..." And we see THAT sometimes faked too!

I suppose emotions can be faked...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Where is praying in the spirit spoken of outside the context of speaking in tongues?

And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord's people.

Again, where are you getting these things from?

I will answer that when you answer me how you think praying in the spirit in deep communion with God involves no soaring feelings and can be done woodenly and perfunctorily.

I suppose emotions can be faked..

They certainly can.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

People can absolutely have a deep communion with God without manifesting tongues.

Yes. It is in spirit.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Yes, I adamantly hold that God would not withhold a gift/manifestation from one of His children that was necessary for communion with Him.

Neither myself, nor Shrume, nor Waggles has at any time suggested that God would withold this gift/manifestation. We are actually encouraging everyone to get it, because this is available to all.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Neither myself, nor Shrume, nor Waggles has at any time suggested that God would withold this gift/manifestation. We are actually encouraging everyone to get it, because this is available to all.

…29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you a way that is beyond comparison.…

Why would paul even ask these questions?? He just got done saying everyone is a different part of the body, with different functions and spoke of how everyone cannot be an eye, hand, tongue, etc. By your doctrine, everyone can be every part of the body. You have not understood what paul was saying.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Your tongue speaks. Your eyes see. Your hands handle. Your feet move you. Your ear hears. Your eye does not speak because only the tongue does that. You have not understood the entire passage.

 

[yellowcanary]

I'm curious why you think tongues can be faked.

Be curious no more. Lots more if you're interested.

 

[KelbyofGod]

1) Praying in spirit is deep communion with the Lover of my soul. 2) Just because when one prays in various tongues they are praying in Spirit DOES NOT MEAN that you then assume there is no praying in Spirit without this certain gift. It is an overstepping of scripture.

1) I'm not saying you don't have a deep relationship with the Lord. I believe you have a lot of love for God, and he for you. If otherwise, I think you would have left this topic long ago. We're just telling you that there is a deeper relationship still available, and we think you actually want it even though it goes against a few of your current beliefs. (specifically, the idea that it is/isn't available for you)

2) Actually, overstepping means to step further than what is stated. We agree that speaking in tongues IS spirit-prayer. You are stepping further than that by saying that other things are too. We are calling you out on that, and are asking "Where's the support for this extra step?" .

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

1) I'm not saying you don't have a deep relationship with the Lord. I believe you have a lot of love for God, and he for you. If otherwise, I think you would have left this topic long ago. We're just telling you that there is a deeper relationship still available, and we think you actually want it even though it goes against a few of your current beliefs. (specifically, the idea that it is/isn't available for you)

2) Actually, overstepping means to step further than what is stated. We agree that speaking in tongues IS spirit-prayer. You are stepping further than that by saying that other things are too. We are calling you out on that, and are asking "Where's the support for this extra step?" .

I cannot give you what is not stated. But you seem to be able to give me what is not stated. You are handling the word concerning this matter in a confining and legalistic manner and ALSO with an adding of a thought that is not there.

You also are trying to insist that all must manifest the Spirit in exactly the same way as you. Why do you not do this with the other gifts/manifestations? You aren't insisting that all must heal or work miracles. Why is that?

You think you have a deeper relationship with God than I do because you are a tongue. You misunderstand the entire passage because you are convinced your relationship is deeper than others. I am trying to keep you from a great fall.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Stunnedbygrace,

I would actually like to answer a few other points you've brought up but I am needing to get offline to prepare to leave. Ultimately, you're going to have to take some of this stuff directly to prayer or you won't understand the truth of it. (John 6:43-45) Besides.. you have to get tongues directly from God anyway. Gotta go for now.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[garee]

Not a single person in here has said anything about seeking the gifts before you will believe. It was to believers that paul said to desire the best gifts. When he said it, was he encouraging them to evilly seek after signs?

A person must return to the foundation of tongues (Isaiah 28) it is not found in 1 Corinthians 14.

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Again, no such thing as a "sign as a gift".(outward evidence) The two words (sign + gift) never work together to the good... to include making a noise to confirm something that cannot be proved. (seeking after) In affect sign seekers ...walking by sight... make the faith of Christ, the unseen without effect.

The no faith Jews required, or sought after a sign, just as Charismatics (sign seekers) today. Not a salvation issue but more "how" can we hear God who has no form?

The unbelieving Jew (no faith) in effect said; show us God by the temporal things seen, and the Greeks; show us God by our intellectualism after the philosophies of men

They both stumbled over the gospel in respect to the cross

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;1 Cor.1:22-23

The sign is not in respect to the believer who trust prophecy. But rather is God mocking (stammering lips) the apostate Jews that would not get under the hearing of His word (prophecy) God spoke to the new converts in Acts in other languages other than Hebrew .

It was those Jews who sought after something they performed as false evidence (oral traditions of men)as if God has spoke.

The sign is not in respect to the believer who trust prophecy. But rather is God mocking (stammering lips) the apostate Jews that would not get under the hearing of His word (prophecy) God spoke to the new converts in other languages other than Hebrew . It was those Jews who sought after something they perform as false evidence (oral traditions of men) as if God has spoke.

1 Corinthians 14:22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, "not" to them that believe, but to them that believe not: (no faith) but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Neither myself, nor Shrume, nor Waggles has at any time suggested that God would withold this gift/manifestation. We are actually encouraging everyone to get it, because this is available to all.

Thank goodness the 120 in the upper room did not have to go get it but instead the Spirit just manifested in them as He saw fit for the building of the church. The inception of the church would have had to be delayed!