Baptism and holy spirit

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shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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I posted about it to explain as best I could. If one has never experienced it, they can't understand.
Ah.. So it's one of those "It's not explainable, but you'll know it when it happens to you" kind of things?

... I know I'm being a bit of a jerk today... I apologize for that.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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That's absolutely not true.


The manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit have nothing to do with the coming kingdom of God (which we are NOT in yet, unless you're an amillennialist or a preterist.)

Please read 1 Cor 14:5, 13-15, 27-28.
The gifts of the holy spirit is for the edification of the church 1 Cor 14. The church is also called the body of Christ aka the kingdom of God aka the kingdom of heaven.
The kingdom of God is a building whose chief corner stone is Jesus Christ/ the foundations made of the apostles and disciples/ the pillars and walls are being built since 2000 years ago as believers are being added one by one until their determined number is achieved, then the end of age will come.

You know you are deluded if John the baptist said ".. repent for the kingdom of God is at hand..." and you are of the opinion that the kingdom of God is not yet 2000 years later.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Because to the best of my knowledge, God has not given me revelation to heal someone or to perform a miracle.
Okay...so, to the best of my knowledge, God has not given me revelation to speak in various tongues.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
What happens today is 100% counterfeiting
Simply not true.

If you knew my wife's personality you'd know she would not and could not fake speaking in tongues. When I first heard it I was shocked because I knew it was not her doing. By the way it sounded I knew she could not fake that.

Stammering lips is a very good description of personal tongues. It had no resemblance whatsoever to a human language.
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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Ah.. So it's one of those "It's not explainable, but you'll know it when it happens to you" kind of things?

... I know I'm being a bit of a jerk today... I apologize for that.


I didn't know that you were being a jerk!
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
And while we're at it....

I have seen the Holy Spirit descending onto a body of believers. It took me years to make the connection with Acts 2 but it looked like shimmering waves of heat coming down from the ceiling. And the instant it hit the heads of the congregation they all exploded in their personal prayer language on cue. Yet they all had their eyes closed in worship.

I think God gave me this special experience so I wouldn't bash tongue speaking because I was incredulous at the time about it.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
83
The gifts of the holy spirit is for the edification of the church 1 Cor 14.
That's right. Also, when a person speaks in tongues, he edifies himself (1 Cor 14:4), he gives thanks well (1 Cor 14:17), and more.

The church is also called the body of Christ
Agreed.

aka the kingdom of God aka the kingdom of heaven.
Can you please provide scripture showing that the church is called the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven?

The kingdom of God is a building whose chief corner stone is Jesus Christ/ the foundations made of the apostles and disciples/ the pillars and walls are being built since 2000 years ago as believers are being added one by one until their determined number is achieved, then the end of age will come.

You know you are deluded if John the baptist said ".. repent for the kingdom of God is at hand..." and you are of the opinion that the kingdom of God is not yet 2000 years later.
I believe the kingdom will be set up when Jesus Christ returns to earth at the end of the trib to fight Armageddon. After that, he will set it up.

I hold to a dispensational view. If you don't, we will not agree on much.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
83
I didn't know that you were being a jerk!
Aww.. thanks.

I know my replies are a bit ... terse. I just feel like this is a giant broken record, all of us just repeating things we're already said a dozen times.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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The gifts of the holy spirit is for the edification of the church
And that is precisely why paul said if there was no one present to interpret (by either the gift of interpretation of various tongues, or by someone present who actually spoke that tongue), then you were to remain silent in the gathering. Because you certainly aren't building anyone up if no one can understand a word you're saying.

So it is similar to him saying to eat at home first so that others won't go hungry. Edify yourself at home first, speaking in tongues, but don't insist on edifying and gratifying and feeding yourself in the gathering, making others go hungry!
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Okay...so, to the best of my knowledge, God has not given me revelation to speak in various tongues.
You have some gift. Just ask God to make it known.

Does a father give his kid a snake if they ask for a fish? Does he give his kid a scorpion if they ask for an egg? No, of course not. So how much more, then, does the Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask:

9“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. 11“Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12“Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”-Luke 11:9-13
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
83
And while we're at it....

I have seen the Holy Spirit descending onto a body of believers. It took me years to make the connection with Acts 2 but it looked like shimmering waves of heat coming down from the ceiling. And the instant it hit the heads of the congregation they all exploded in their personal prayer language on cue. Yet they all had their eyes closed in worship.

I think God gave me this special experience so I wouldn't bash tongue speaking because I was incredulous at the time about it.
Interesting....

I surely don't want to put God in a box, but it kinda contradicts 1 Cor 14:23.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
Simply not true.

If you knew my wife's personality you'd know she would not and could not fake speaking in tongues. When I first heard it I was shocked because I knew it was not her doing. By the way it sounded I knew she could not fake that.

Stammering lips is a very good description of personal tongues. It had no resemblance whatsoever to a human language.
If you knew my personality you'd know i wouldn't fake it. It was so true even to me it duped me into believing that i was visited by God.
If the speaker doesn't understand and the hearers don't have a clue what is being said, of what use is it?
There's no 'simpler' gift, yet speaking in tongues has flourished while other gifts have died- there's no more raising of dead/no more healing/ no more miracles- only fake ones yet speaking in tongues is the only gift that flourishes (with no gift interpretation of spoken tongues). This is like saying the Holy spirited is unfair (God forbid) because He distributes the gifts in equal/measured proportions
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
And that is precisely why paul said if there was no one present to interpret (by either the gift of interpretation of various tongues, or by someone present who actually spoke that tongue), then you were to remain silent in the gathering. Because you certainly aren't building anyone up if no one can understand a word you're saying.

So it is similar to him saying to eat at home first so that others won't go hungry. Edify yourself at home first, speaking in tongues, but don't insist on edifying and gratifying and feeding yourself in the gathering, making others go hungry!
In the churches I've attended you simply do it under your breath. That way you edify yourself while making it clear that you are not speaking for everyone to hear and for someone to interpret.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
And while we're at it....

I have seen the Holy Spirit descending onto a body of believers. It took me years to make the connection with Acts 2 but it looked like shimmering waves of heat coming down from the ceiling. And the instant it hit the heads of the congregation they all exploded in their personal prayer language on cue. Yet they all had their eyes closed in worship.

I think God gave me this special experience so I wouldn't bash tongue speaking because I was incredulous at the time about it.
And this is what was said, the Antichrist comes with signs and wonders- he deceives even the elect 'if it were possible'.
The Holy spirit is the MIND OF GOD. How did you see the mind of God descend?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
83
And that is precisely why paul said if there was no one present to interpret (by either the gift of interpretation of various tongues, or by someone present who actually spoke that tongue), then you were to remain silent in the gathering. Because you certainly aren't building anyone up if no one can understand a word you're saying.
Interpretation of tongues is to be done by the person who speaks in tongues (1 Cor 14:5, 13).

But other that that, you're right. Speaking in tongues is useless in the church unless it's interpreted, so the church can understand and be edified.

So it is similar to him saying to eat at home first so that others won't go hungry. Edify yourself at home first, speaking in tongues, but don't insist on edifying and gratifying and feeding yourself in the gathering, making others go hungry!
People can speak in tongues to themselves in church as much as they want. But if they want to speak out loud, they must do so with the intent to interpret.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Interesting....

I surely don't want to put God in a box, but it kinda contradicts 1 Cor 14:23.
In the churches I've attended you simply do it under your breath. That way you edify yourself while making it clear that you are not speaking for everyone to hear and for someone to interpret.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
And this is what was said, the Antichrist comes with signs and wonders- he deceives even the elect 'if it were possible'.
The Holy spirit is the MIND OF GOD. How did you see the mind of God descend?
I guess the same way John saw the Spirit descend on Jesus at his baptism.
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
If you knew my personality you'd know i wouldn't fake it. It was so true even to me it duped me into believing that i was visited by God.
If the speaker doesn't understand and the hearers don't have a clue what is being said, of what use is it?
There's no 'simpler' gift, yet speaking in tongues has flourished while other gifts have died- there's no more raising of dead/no more healing/ no more miracles- only fake ones yet speaking in tongues is the only gift that flourishes (with no gift interpretation of spoken tongues). This is like saying the Holy spirited is unfair (God forbid) because He distributes the gifts in equal/measured proportions
“To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have,