Trinity vs. Oneness

[Ricke]

VW
The point of the matter is this; It is not "Legalism" or being Dogmatic or even trying to force anybody to comply with my beleifs versus your beleifs.

What it is is OBEDIENCE to God's Word. We must keep in mind Uiyipthat Jesus gave Peter the "keys" in Matthew 16 v 18-19. The man with the "keys" told EVERYONE in Acts 2 v 38 the following; "Repent, and be Baptized EVERYONE of you in THE NAME of Jesus Christ, for the REMISSION of SINS and you shall receive The Gift of The Holy Ghost."

So there are ony two logical conclusions;

1. The Man with the "keys" knew exactly what Jesus was saying in Parable form, in Matthew 28 v 19, and he did exactly what he was told to do.

2. He did not obey what Jesus told them all to do, and took it upon himself to mis-interpret The command given in Matthew 28 v 19. Therefore he doesn't deserve the "keys" for dis-obeying God.

So , let us say you choose #2; that also means Apostle Paul also disobeyed The Lord when he Re-baptized the Former disciples of John The Baptist in Acts 19 v 5......."WhUen they heard this, they were baptized in THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS."

So that means Paul, the writer of most of the epistles, also disobeyed The Lord as well as Peter, and The other Original Apostles....be honest, does not make any sense?

Then finally Paul Warns all of us NOT TO ACCEPT any other Gospel (including the baptismal formula) but the Gospel delivered by He and the Other Apostles.....I Timothy 4 v 16 and Galatians 1 v 6-8.

So let me tell you what really happened after the Original Apostles passed off the Scene....Others decided to do it another way. And it eventually became The "Official" Doctrine of Christianity by Baptizing everyone in The Triune Formula, which goes right along with The Triune Beleifs and teachings, also now officially "Christian Doctrine" when none of this was ever taught in The Original church.

This is why Oneness is called a "Cult" or some "Mis-understand.ding" of Scriptures etc etc. The Devil successfully took the Original Church teachings and through the Next Generation after The Original Apostles, had them adopt the Triune Formula in Water Baptism and people Re blinded to a Tradition rather then except Scriptural teachings on this Matter....

 

[VW]

You say that there are only two conclusions. I do not agree. I think that you are trying to make scripture to agree with what you believe. If one baptizes in the name of the Father and Son and the Holy Ghost, and another baptizes in the name of Jesus, what difference can that make, unless the Holy Spirit is not there and has not given the conviction of His being raised from the dead, in which case they have become baptized in vain.

Scripture does not teach. There is no such thing as scriptural teachings. The Holy Spirit teaches, and He saves, and He convicts. We are born into the family of God by the Holy Spirit. I don't accept that because I believe in the triune God, ie the Father and the Son and the Spirit, that it is because I have been deceived by the devil. I see the Son, in heaven taking the scroll from the Father, the One who sits on the throne, from His right hand. And in the very same vision which John received, I see the 7 Spirits of God.

You are basing a denial of scripture without taking into account the fact that the gospel accounts were written many years after the day of Pentecost. John's account as much as 60 or 70 years later. And when we look at the very passage which you are using in this way, we find that...........Oh my, God has split again, and has given His Spirit to upwards of 2000 people!

There are more than one baptism. Indeed, there have been many baptisms, but the most recognized were the baptism of John the baptist, and then the baptism into Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. There is that funny number 3 again, how odd. Which reminds me, the Law was given 3 times. Jesus gave His new commandment 3 times. We are called to craw near to God, 3 times in Hebrews. And even so, the number 3 is associated with God. Has been from the very beginning, and is the Hebrew number for God.

But all of this aside; just because there are 3 distinct manifestations of God, does not mean that He is separate, that is, divided. But consider this; when Jesus was baptized by John the prophet, we see something truly amazing, the Holy Spirit as a dove coming down and filling the Son of God, sent from the Father, who spoke out loud and said, "This is My Son, in whom I am well pleased." Now either God has the worst case of multiple personalities ever, or else they are three.

 

[ibewhoibe]

Thank You Vic,

Thank You Father!!

"From I BE "

 

[Ricke]

O

You say that there are only two conclusions. I do not agree. I think that you are trying to make scripture to agree with what you believe. If one baptizes in the name of the Father and Son and the Holy Ghost, and another baptizes in the name of Jesus, what difference can that make, unless the Holy Spirit is not there and has not given the conviction of His being raised from the dead, in which case they have become baptized in vain.

Scripture does not teach. There is no such thing as scriptural teachings. The Holy Spirit teaches, and He saves, and He convicts. We are born into the family of God by the Holy Spirit. I don't accept that because I believe in the triune God, ie the Father and the Son and the Spirit, that it is because I have been deceived by the devil. I see the Son, in heaven taking the scroll from the Father, the One who sits on the throne, from His right hand. And in the very same vision which John received, I see the 7 Spirits of God.

You are basing a denial of scripture without taking into account the fact that the gospel accounts were written many years after the day of Pentecost. John's account as much as 60 or 70 years later. And when we look at the very passage which you are using in this way, we find that...........Oh my, God has split again, and has given His Spirit to upwards of 2000 people!

There are more than one baptism. Indeed, there have been many baptisms, but the most recognized were the baptism of John the baptist, and then the baptism into Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. There is that funny number 3 again, how odd. Which reminds me, the Law was given 3 times. Jesus gave His new commandment 3 times. We are called to craw near to God, 3 times in Hebrews. And even so, the number 3 is associated with God. Has been from the very beginning, and is the Hebrew number for God.

But all of this aside; just because there are 3 distinct manifestations of God, does not mean that He is separate, that is, divided. But consider this; when Jesus was baptized by John the prophet, we see something truly amazing, the Holy Spirit as a dove coming down and filling the Son of God, sent from the Father, who spoke out loud and said, "This is My Son, in whom I am well pleased." Now either God has the worst case of multiple personalities ever, or else they are three.

VW
I don't want to get into another Oneness/trinity debate or Argument with you or anyone else here. I think it best for all of us to love each other, and just agree to disagree is the crux of the matter.

Let me then, give you something to think about in the future ok? I asked a question regarding Baptism Procedure, and you never answered the questions I posed.

Did Peter and Paul disobey what God told The Original Apostles to do in Matthew 28 v 19??

Or as I stated could it be Peter understood exactly what Jesus told them to do in PARABLE form?

Please, read Matthew 13 verses 11-13. Read what Jesus told his Apostles. Please take Special attention Jesus made in verse 11;
" Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to THEM it is NOT GIVEN"

Who is "Them"?....it is all those who have build their Foundation on the "wisdom" of Religions, and Churches with long traditions, and woe be it to any member who questions what we have established! This is what I keep reading on these threads..."so and so said thus and thus" or " Saint so and so said and wrote these words in 194 AD" see what I am saying?

But what about Peter and Paul and what they SAID? What about the WARNING Paul gives us in I Timothy 4 v 16/ Galatians 1 v 6-8 well, what about what THEY SAID???

The Apostles walked and learned from Jesus..( Paul, of course came on later) Let's Listen to what they said VW, that is my point.

Now Apostolic/ Pentecostals are accused of talking about Water Baptism as "Salvation". Dogmatic, Legalism, etc, etc.

Let us now read where we get this idea;

I Peter 3 v 20-21; "Which sometime were disobedient, and once the long suffering of God waited in The days of Noah, while the ark was preparing , wherein FEW. That is, eight souls were saved by WATER. The like figure WHEREUNTO EVEN BAPTISIM DOES ALSO NOW SAVE US, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a GOOD CONSCIENCE toward God, by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ."

There it is VW exactly as Peter wrote it. Water and Spirit Baptism was first proclaimed by Jesus to Nicodemus in John 3 v 3+5 then first carried out on The Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 v 38.

Agreed, Baptism seals the Beleiver as part of The Covenant of your Beleif. It is Mandatory, not optional as some beleive.

A person can "accept Jesus as your personal savior" or simply say a "sinner's prayer" and the deal is'nt done....until they get Water Baptized in Jesus' Name ..not according To RICKE, but according to thus saith the word of God in your Bible....

 

[Ricke]

VW
You stated; "There are many different Baptisms"

The Bible says; Ephesians 4 v 5 "One Lord, One Faith, ONE BAPTISM."
One Lord.....Jesus

One Faith....In Jesus

One Baptism....In JESUS NAME......Thank God for his Truth!!

 

[phil36]

The good thing is we are not reliant on baptism for our salvation

Blessings

Phil

 

[Ricke]

VW
You stated the following two statements....

1."Scriptures DOES NOT TEACH" " There is No such thing as SCRIPTURAL TEACHINGS"

John 5 v 39.... Jesus said this..."SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES; for IN THEM, you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of ME."

Acts 15 v 7.... Peter said....."...........that the Gentiles by MY MOUTH should hear the word of THE GOSPEL, AND BELEIVE"

And by Peter's Mouth, did'nt he tell ALL of US in Acts 2 v 38 to REPENT, and Be Baptized IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST....."
And did'nt Peter say in Acts 15 v 7 by his Mouth, people should hear the Gospel and BELEIVE? Is'nt that what Peter the one God gave the keys unto, is that not what Peter said VW???

Acts 17 v 2 "And PAUL , as his manner, went into them, and three Sabbath days, reasoned with them OUT OF SCRIPTURES."

Also please read; Acts 17 v 11.....

Mark 1 v 15 Jesus said....."The time is fulfilled, and The Kingdom of God is at hand, REPENT Ye, AND BELEIVE THE GOSPEL".

Finally Jesus spoke these words; John 7 v 38 " He that beleives on me , AS THE SCRIPTURE SAITH, out of his Belly shall flow rivers of living waters."

Conclusion; Everybody better be studying God's Word, and his Word Alone...and forget what this "anointed" or "Holy" man of God said or wrote . If it " ain't" Bible, take it as a grain of salt.


2. VW you stated; "I see the SON in Heaven, taking the scroll from THE FATHER, the One WHO SITS ON THE THRONE"

Revelation 4 v 2+3, and. Verse 11
" And immediately , I was in The Spirit, and behold, a THRONE was set in Heaven, and ONE SAT ON THE THRONE., And HE that sat was to look upon like a Jasper and harding stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an YEmerald.
Verse 11; "Thou art worthy O LORD, to receive glory and honor and POWER: for thou has created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created"

ONE THRONE. So unless the other "Two" are standing or not there, ONLY ONE.

How many LORDS are there in heaven, ONE
Acts 9 v 5 Paul asks "WHO ART THOU LORD"?? " I AM JESUS whom thou Persecutest."

Ephesians 4 v 5 " ONE LORD, One faith., One Baptism"

John 20 v 28....Apostle John says to Jesus..."My LORD, AND MY GOD"

How many God's are there? Just ONE..... Isaiah 46 v 9 ".....For I Am GOD, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE......"

Conclusion; The ONE on The Throne is JESUS CHRIST, the ONE LORD and ONE GOD.

 

[phil36]

What I find, is that, even just a quick plain reading of Scriotures shows that God is one, yet three distinct persons. What you don;t find with either a plain reading or indepth is, one God (person) acting like three different people at different times.

God the Father is always present, Jesus, our Lord and Saviour is always present and the Holy Spirit is always present all three are one yet very different roles.

We will never understand God fully, nor should we do. It is plain to see that God is one, yet distinctly 3. we can argue and debate over baptism formulae, however, it is not baptism that saves, it is coming to the truth of what God has done through the work of His Son and the Holy Spirit all three working in and through you for your salvation. All three working together yet one.

God bless

Phil

 

[Ricke]

Phil 36
I agree Phil. To me if there is a difference of an opinion then why should we bicker over it? VW however himself needs to.answer the Questions I posed. When someone states something, they need to attempt to back up their assertions, me included. If he'll simply answer the simple questions I asked, or at least to give his viewpoint, we can move on to other important matters.

By the way Phil, off the subject, My Maternal Grandfather is Scottish like you. Last name; Mc Gillis. Yes, Laddie!! Ha ha!

 

[VW]

O

VW
I don't want to get into another Oneness/trinity debate or Argument with you or anyone else here. I think it best for all of us to love each other, and just agree to disagree is the crux of the matter.

Let me then, give you something to think about in the future ok? I asked a question regarding Baptism Procedure, and you never answered the questions I posed.

Did Peter and Paul disobey what God told The Original Apostles to do in Matthew 28 v 19??

Or as I stated could it be Peter understood exactly what Jesus told them to do in PARABLE form?

Please, read Matthew 13 verses 11-13. Read what Jesus told his Apostles. Please take Special attention Jesus made in verse 11;
" Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to THEM it is NOT GIVEN"

Who is "Them"?....it is all those who have build their Foundation on the "wisdom" of Religions, and Churches with long traditions, and woe be it to any member who questions what we have established! This is what I keep reading on these threads..."so and so said thus and thus" or " Saint so and so said and wrote these words in 194 AD" see what I am saying?

But what about Peter and Paul and what they SAID? What about the WARNING Paul gives us in I Timothy 4 v 16/ Galatians 1 v 6-8 well, what about what THEY SAID???

The Apostles walked and learned from Jesus..( Paul, of course came on later) Let's Listen to what they said VW, that is my point.

Now Apostolic/ Pentecostals are accused of talking about Water Baptism as "Salvation". Dogmatic, Legalism, etc, etc.

Let us now read where we get this idea;

I Peter 3 v 20-21; "Which sometime were disobedient, and once the long suffering of God waited in The days of Noah, while the ark was preparing , wherein FEW. That is, eight souls were saved by WATER. The like figure WHEREUNTO EVEN BAPTISIM DOES ALSO NOW SAVE US, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a GOOD CONSCIENCE toward God, by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ."

There it is VW exactly as Peter wrote it. Water and Spirit Baptism was first proclaimed by Jesus to Nicodemus in John 3 v 3+5 then first carried out on The Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 v 38.

Agreed, Baptism seals the Beleiver as part of The Covenant of your Beleif. It is Mandatory, not optional as some beleive.

A person can "accept Jesus as your personal savior" or simply say a "sinner's prayer" and the deal is'nt done....until they get Water Baptized in Jesus' Name ..not according To RICKE, but according to thus saith the word of God in your Bible....

All of these are your interpretations of scripture, which does not constitute truth. I don't believe that what these scriptures say is what you are attributing to them. Water baptism is not mandatory. Spiritual baptism is. This is the true meaning of Jesus teaching Nicodemous. The birth into the kingdom is by the Holy Spirit. The birth into the flesh is by water. Water baptism is a show of what has been accomplished.

I see by the way that you view scripture that we will not soon agree, so there is not much point in going further.

In Christ,
vic

 

[Dmurray]

Nothing in the Bible is optional. It is the "Manual" it's like saying oh the oil change every 5000 km is optional.

No it is manditory. If it wasn't then why would it be in there? Everything is in there for a purpose. We must be Born again through Water and Spiritual Baptism.

Repentance = Christ's Death
Water Baptism = Christ's Burial
Spiritual Baptism = Christ's Resurrection

We must apply the Gospel to our lives.

We can not pick and chose to make it fit our own meanings. But we must follow every command the Bible gives us.

Jesus commanded them to Baptize people, that unless we are born of the water and of the Spirit we CAN NOT ENTER the Kingdom!

Acts 2:38 is a command from the Apostle unto how we must be saved.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Nothing in the Bible is optional. It is the "Manual" it's like saying oh the oil change every 5000 km is optional.

No it is manditory. If it wasn't then why would it be in there? Everything is in there for a purpose. We must be Born again through Water and Spiritual Baptism.

Repentance = Christ's Death
Water Baptism = Christ's Burial
Spiritual Baptism = Christ's Resurrection

We must apply the Gospel to our lives.

We can not pick and chose to make it fit our own meanings. But we must follow every command the Bible gives us.

Jesus commanded them to Baptize people, that unless we are born of the water and of the Spirit we CAN NOT ENTER the Kingdom!

Acts 2:38 is a command from the Apostle unto how we must be saved.

So, no deathbed conversions, no salvation for babies who die, no salvation for those who are not "spirit baptized"?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works that none should boast."

 

[VW]

So, no deathbed conversions, no salvation for babies who die, no salvation for those who are not "spirit baptized"?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works that none should boast."

Good questions. It seems to be just another form of legalism. I have been baptized twice, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Which one counted?

The apostles came upon a people who had been baptized in John the Baptist's baptism, the same baptism which Jesus partook of, and the apostles did not tell them that they needed to be baptized again in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. No! They told them that they needed to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, and laid hands on them and they were filled with the Spirit.

 

[Dmurray]

God's judgement is perfect. But Salvation is a gift, but there are procedures that we must do in order to open up the gift of salvation.
We may not know if God will let them in the Kingdom of Heaven. We can only go by what the Scripture says. and follow what it says. Not speculate about others who are on their deathbed. We know God's will and judgment is just and perfect.

Correction VW , they were baptized in the name of the Lord after they heard.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

God's judgement is perfect. But Salvation is a gift, but there are procedures that we must do in order to open up the gift of salvation.
We may not know if God will let them in the Kingdom of Heaven. We can only go by what the Scripture says. and follow what it says. Not speculate about others who are on their deathbed. We know God's will and judgment is just and perfect.

Correction VW , they were baptized in the name of the Lord after they heard.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

But you are making that determination. It is possible to be so centered upon the letter of what Jesus and the apostles said that you loose the spirit of the gospel. If we turn the teachings of Jesus into a new law, then have we surrendered our freedom in Christ.
You have taken the teaching of Jesus to Nicodemus, "to be born again", and turned it into a commandment for baptism.

 

[Dmurray]

Jesus said. Verily Verily. Truly Truly he is saying, he is getting our attention, it is something important. Yes?

Verily Verily I say unto thee, except a man be Born again he can not See the Kingdom of God.

Verily Verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit he can not enter into the Kingdom of God.

Mavel not that I say unto thee, ye must be born again.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Jesus said. Verily Verily. Truly Truly he is saying, he is getting our attention, it is something important. Yes?

Verily Verily I say unto thee, except a man be Born again he can not See the Kingdom of God.

Verily Verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit he can not enter into the Kingdom of God.

Mavel not that I say unto thee, ye must be born again.

Notice that not once does He say "baptize". Your interpretation is driven by your strict view of salvation.

 

[Dmurray]

How else are we born again of water? Do we enter a second time into our mothers womb? No that is why he command the deciples to Baptize in the NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Scripture explains itself. It is not an interpretation. 1+1 = 2

 

[VW]

Jesus said. Verily Verily. Truly Truly he is saying, he is getting our attention, it is something important. Yes?

Verily Verily I say unto thee, except a man be Born again he can not See the Kingdom of God.

Verily Verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit he can not enter into the Kingdom of God.

Mavel not that I say unto thee, ye must be born again.

Water baptism has nothing to do with being born again of water. Actually, it (water baptism) is symbolic of dying and rising from the dead, which is not birth. Even Nicodemous, who was admittedly a little dense about these things, understood, and asked if a man could enter the womb and be born again? This because he understood that the birth by water is our birth into this world, which is the first requirement of being born of God, that is, being born of a woman. Water. This sort of excludes the fallen angels who have not been born of a woman, who cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. It is an exclusive membership, and only those who are born of a woman, and have subsequently been born of the Holy Spirit, can enter.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

How else are we born again of water? Do we enter a second time into our mothers womb? No that is why he command the deciples to Baptize in the NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Scripture explains itself. It is not an interpretation. 1+1 = 2

The second birth is the birth by the Spirit. You are born of water when you are born from your mother's "water", you are reborn when a new man is brought to life in you by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is what you are proclaiming then when you are baptized--the old man dying and the new man being born of the Spirit.