Human beings are very much alive, their souls are very much alive, but THEIR SPIRITS ARE DEAD. Those spirits must be quickened by the Holy Spirit, but unless sinners repent and believe the Gospel, they do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So even while their spirits are dead, their hearts and minds can be convicted and convinced by the Holy Spirit. Thus Scripture says to all the spiritually dead: "Today, if ye will hear His voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS" (Heb 3:7,8; 4:7).
John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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They have taken their position and they will continue to deny all of the scriptures that don't support their view.
We are called to believe the whole cannon of scripture, and not cherry pick the portions we like and ignore the rest.
There is an element of mystery to Gods Word, only those who have been illuminated by the Holy Spirit will understand the true context of the complicated scriptures. People go wrong when they use carnal reasoning to decipher spiritual things, God deliberately wrote the Bible in such a way that only His elect would understand the true meaning of His Holy Scriptures. The rest will remain in error and darkness until the end.
We are called to believe the whole cannon of scripture, and not cherry pick the portions we like and ignore the rest.
There is an element of mystery to Gods Word, only those who have been illuminated by the Holy Spirit will understand the true context of the complicated scriptures. People go wrong when they use carnal reasoning to decipher spiritual things, God deliberately wrote the Bible in such a way that only His elect would understand the true meaning of His Holy Scriptures. The rest will remain in error and darkness until the end.
Whether Paul is speaking to his brethren (as in those who are born again) or his brethren (as in those who are Israelites), I believe Rom 12:3 states that God hath dealt to every man (believer and unbeliever alike) a measure of faith.
God is no respecter of persons. For God to give faith only to some and then to hold in contempt those He does not give faith is an unjust accusation against the God Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).
And, yes, in agreement the Paul goes on to speak of the one body of Christ and each member contributing.
In agreement that God gives us a NEW heart and makes us a NEW creation. I do not believe I stated that God heals our hearts. I also do not believe I have denied that God makes us a NEW creation in Christ.
God is no respecter of persons. For God to give faith only to some and then to hold in contempt those He does not give faith is an unjust accusation against the God Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).
And, yes, in agreement the Paul goes on to speak of the one body of Christ and each member contributing.
In agreement that God gives us a NEW heart and makes us a NEW creation. I do not believe I stated that God heals our hearts. I also do not believe I have denied that God makes us a NEW creation in Christ.
I wish more would take your stance on trying to outguess God. Predestination is real and no man can arbitrarily just start serving God. As it states in John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
You can preach to people God's word all day long, but if God is not ready to call them they won't come.
What you are doing here is putting God on your time frame. When God is through with all He is doing, these scriptures will be fully understood. Christianity has gain a bad name for itself with well intended people trying to force others to become God's servants. You say you love the lost, well God loves them more. God is love. Quit trying to serve God with your flesh.
You can preach to people God's word all day long, but if God is not ready to call them they won't come.
What you are doing here is putting God on your time frame. When God is through with all He is doing, these scriptures will be fully understood. Christianity has gain a bad name for itself with well intended people trying to force others to become God's servants. You say you love the lost, well God loves them more. God is love. Quit trying to serve God with your flesh.
Hi again Nehemiah6, Calvinists hardly ignore the importance of the preaching of the Gospel in evangelism. After all, it's through the hearing of the Gospel alone that we come to faith in Christ .. e.g. Romans 10:17. Nor do they ignore the supreme importance of the HS's role in the life of all believers .. cf 1 Corinthians 2:12-16.
But the natural man/woman cannot accept or understand the Gospel from their POV. They, in fact, regard it as mere foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18, 2:14), because the things of God must be "spiritually appraised" .. 1 Corinthians 2:12-16.
IOW, the Gospel is not going to "get through" to the natural man/woman unless God makes it possible by bringing them to spiritual life first .. e.g. John 3:3.
~Deut
But the natural man/woman cannot accept or understand the Gospel from their POV. They, in fact, regard it as mere foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18, 2:14), because the things of God must be "spiritually appraised" .. 1 Corinthians 2:12-16.
IOW, the Gospel is not going to "get through" to the natural man/woman unless God makes it possible by bringing them to spiritual life first .. e.g. John 3:3.
~Deut
"The natural man" cannot understand spiritual truth until he is saved. That does not mean that he cannot understand that he is a sinner, and that Christ died for his sins, and that God commands him to repent.
By the same token, God does NOT give the gift of the Holy Spirit until and unless sinners repent and are converted. So, in fact, you did ignore the implications of the Scripture passage provided. So once again:
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Notice the order: (First) REPENT----->(then) YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.
But your theology reverses the order (which is God's order, not man's). So do you see how man-made doctrine contradicts the Word of God?
By the same token, God does NOT give the gift of the Holy Spirit until and unless sinners repent and are converted. So, in fact, you did ignore the implications of the Scripture passage provided. So once again:
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Notice the order: (First) REPENT----->(then) YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.
But your theology reverses the order (which is God's order, not man's). So do you see how man-made doctrine contradicts the Word of God?
Actually, that's exactly what it means.
.........1 Corinthians 1
.........18 The word of the Cross [The Gospel] is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the
.........power of God.
We can only choose to repent of our sins, to be baptized, to do good works/be pleasing to God, etc., as a result of coming to saving faith in Christ. We can only choose to come to saving faith/believe in Christ because God first draws us to Him by changing/quickening our hearts to life.
As the Bible tells us, we must be born again before we can even see the Kingdom of God (much less enter into it). If someone cannot see, accept, or understand God and His Kingdom as anything other than "foolishness", why (unless they were insane) would such a person (with such an understanding) choose to believe/bet their eternity on something as absurd to them as that??
~Deut
.........1 Corinthians 1
.........18 The word of the Cross [The Gospel] is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the
.........power of God.
We can only choose to repent of our sins, to be baptized, to do good works/be pleasing to God, etc., as a result of coming to saving faith in Christ. We can only choose to come to saving faith/believe in Christ because God first draws us to Him by changing/quickening our hearts to life.
As the Bible tells us, we must be born again before we can even see the Kingdom of God (much less enter into it). If someone cannot see, accept, or understand God and His Kingdom as anything other than "foolishness", why (unless they were insane) would such a person (with such an understanding) choose to believe/bet their eternity on something as absurd to them as that??
~Deut
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The problem is, that there are verses in the Bible that seem to calvinistic and also verses that seem to be about free will, choice making, God's love for world etc.
Therefore there are two camps, holding to each group of verses (and also to their human philosophy) - calvinists and arminians.
I am trying to find the third way, where both of them are true. I think I found it in the Best World hypothesis by G.W. Leibniz.
Therefore there are two camps, holding to each group of verses (and also to their human philosophy) - calvinists and arminians.
I am trying to find the third way, where both of them are true. I think I found it in the Best World hypothesis by G.W. Leibniz.
An unregenerate man is fully able to hear the voice of GOD. He just cannot know or understand the door into life. I clearly heard the voice of GOD before I was saved. That's how I got saved; I recognized that voice in the bible. Once I repented, then I saw the door and entered and was reborn. As it is written, all who hear and learn of the father come to Christ.
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that was explained earlier. By the work of God, the work of God in giving us his word, the work of God in enlightening the gospel of his word to us, the work of God in exposing gour sin (conviction) the work of God in bringing people in our lives who walk in the light, and make us want to see what they have, the work of God to bless them in awesome ways even in times of tribulation so that we want what they have, The work of God to bring us to our knees.
The tax collector was brought to his knees, And he called out to God, and THEN God saved him, and regenerated his dead body because his sins were washed away.
The pharisee had the same opportunity, the same word, witnessed the same people. yet wanted nothign to do with them, or their god. so in unbelief, he rejected, and continued to remain dead.
The tax collector was brought to his knees, And he called out to God, and THEN God saved him, and regenerated his dead body because his sins were washed away.
The pharisee had the same opportunity, the same word, witnessed the same people. yet wanted nothign to do with them, or their god. so in unbelief, he rejected, and continued to remain dead.
I really do not care about calvinism, what I care about is the Bible and what the Lord says about salvation and here is what te Word of God says.
1. THE “WATER” OF THE GOSPEL IS THE SEED OF THE NEW BIRTH
Genesis 49:18 I have waited for your salvation, O Lord! Psalm 3:8 Salvation belongs to the Lord. Your blessing is upon Your people. Selah John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
If you are not born again you cannot know that you need to repent, believe or have faith, because you cannot see the kingdom of God. You tried to rwist the Scripture, yes the Word is the water and you forgot to highlight the Spirit being mixed with the Word.
James 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.
I Peter 1:3, 23 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,.....23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
2. SALVATION IS FOR “WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH” How can they believe when they cannot see the kingdon of Gof, unless thery are born again? Refer to John 3:3 and if it is not by God's unconditional election? If James 1:18 says "of His will He brought us forth by the Word of truth" and I Peter 1:3 says that anyone who is born again, "according to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again"
3. CHRIST DIED FOR ALL, SO THAT ALL “MIGHT” BE SAVED
You forgot to post John 3:21 "But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God." This verse agrees with James 1:18, I Peter 1:3 and John 3:3. Notice that James says He brought US forth, Peter says that He has caused US to be born again. Which is not only election, but that His atonement is for His people, even Paul writes about the samething in Romans 5:8 "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Paul defines the us in Ephesians 5:25-27 "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish."
These verse show not only did Jesus give Himself for the Church, He also sanctifies US to present US to Himself.
4. ALL MAY EITHER BELIEVE, OR DISBELIEVE
Humans will not chose to believe, because unless they are born again they cannot see the kingdom of God, John 3:3. They do not seek God Romans 3:10-18 "as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”13 “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.”14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;16 in their paths are ruin and misery,17 and the way of peace they have not known.”18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
They are enemies of God and cannot please Him in the flesh. Romans 8:7-8 "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
Only the Spirit can give life or cause one to be born again. John 6:63, 65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life....65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
The flesh or anything it does is of NO help, no one comes to Jesus unless the Father grants it or causes them to be born again by the Spirit that gives life.
5. THE UNSAVED CHOOSE DARKNESS OVER LIGHT
Amen, and everyone is unsaved until the Father causes them to be born again by the Spirit that give life so that they can repent because now that they have been born again they can see the kingdom of God and know that thet need to repent, then by faith the recieve the protitiation by faith. Romans 3:25 "whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins."
The reason they chose darkness is because they cannot see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. God needs to make them alive. Ephesians 2:4-5 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"
Because of God's great love for His people and Him be rich in mercy to us, He made us alive out of us being dead in sins. There is no Scripture that says He made the world alive, John 3:16 tell us how God loved the world, John 3:16 "that he gave his only Son" that is how He showed His love for the world, but He demonstrates His love for His people in that while we were still sinners Christ died for His people, Roamsn 5:8 and He came to save His peoples sins. Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."
1. THE “WATER” OF THE GOSPEL IS THE SEED OF THE NEW BIRTH
Genesis 49:18 I have waited for your salvation, O Lord! Psalm 3:8 Salvation belongs to the Lord. Your blessing is upon Your people. Selah John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
If you are not born again you cannot know that you need to repent, believe or have faith, because you cannot see the kingdom of God. You tried to rwist the Scripture, yes the Word is the water and you forgot to highlight the Spirit being mixed with the Word.
James 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.
I Peter 1:3, 23 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,.....23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
2. SALVATION IS FOR “WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH” How can they believe when they cannot see the kingdon of Gof, unless thery are born again? Refer to John 3:3 and if it is not by God's unconditional election? If James 1:18 says "of His will He brought us forth by the Word of truth" and I Peter 1:3 says that anyone who is born again, "according to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again"
3. CHRIST DIED FOR ALL, SO THAT ALL “MIGHT” BE SAVED
You forgot to post John 3:21 "But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God." This verse agrees with James 1:18, I Peter 1:3 and John 3:3. Notice that James says He brought US forth, Peter says that He has caused US to be born again. Which is not only election, but that His atonement is for His people, even Paul writes about the samething in Romans 5:8 "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Paul defines the us in Ephesians 5:25-27 "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish."
These verse show not only did Jesus give Himself for the Church, He also sanctifies US to present US to Himself.
4. ALL MAY EITHER BELIEVE, OR DISBELIEVE
Humans will not chose to believe, because unless they are born again they cannot see the kingdom of God, John 3:3. They do not seek God Romans 3:10-18 "as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”13 “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.”14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;16 in their paths are ruin and misery,17 and the way of peace they have not known.”18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
They are enemies of God and cannot please Him in the flesh. Romans 8:7-8 "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
Only the Spirit can give life or cause one to be born again. John 6:63, 65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life....65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
The flesh or anything it does is of NO help, no one comes to Jesus unless the Father grants it or causes them to be born again by the Spirit that gives life.
5. THE UNSAVED CHOOSE DARKNESS OVER LIGHT
Amen, and everyone is unsaved until the Father causes them to be born again by the Spirit that give life so that they can repent because now that they have been born again they can see the kingdom of God and know that thet need to repent, then by faith the recieve the protitiation by faith. Romans 3:25 "whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins."
The reason they chose darkness is because they cannot see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. God needs to make them alive. Ephesians 2:4-5 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"
Because of God's great love for His people and Him be rich in mercy to us, He made us alive out of us being dead in sins. There is no Scripture that says He made the world alive, John 3:16 tell us how God loved the world, John 3:16 "that he gave his only Son" that is how He showed His love for the world, but He demonstrates His love for His people in that while we were still sinners Christ died for His people, Roamsn 5:8 and He came to save His peoples sins. Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."
The Bible says that we can't serve two masters, we will love one and hate the other. If God gave everyone light they would respond by loving Him, but a fallen sinner has no light or capacity to love God because there is only darkness in his heart.
God can only love what He put in us, because there's nothing inherently good in us except for what He imputed to us through Christ. Most Christians are shocked to discover that God actually hates sin, He even hates certain people like Esau. So the only thing He can love about us is what He put in us, so He's essentially loving Himself.
God can only love what He put in us, because there's nothing inherently good in us except for what He imputed to us through Christ. Most Christians are shocked to discover that God actually hates sin, He even hates certain people like Esau. So the only thing He can love about us is what He put in us, so He's essentially loving Himself.
You're simply making an assertion with no basis in truth. The book says that all men know the righteous work of GOD because he makes it manifest to them; and that there are those who love the light and come to the light because their works are wrought in GOD, and there are those who hate the light and remain in darkness lest their works be exposed for being evil.
The big question is why are some so sinful that they won't come to the light. I mean how did they come to be that way, were they created that way or did they choose to be that way. I know you will say they choose it, but I would say they chose it because they couldn't see any other way so they just did what comes naturally to them.