Speaking in tongues

[stonesoffire]

Thanks Ricky for that scripture in Zeph. In thinking about it, I can see why tongues and prophecy might be what came first in the Pentecostal event. We speak what is in our heart. Tongues and prophecy possibly was the action to release the power of the gospel from a pure heart? Faith then comes to those who were gathered outside? Being that faith comes through hearing?

All the giftings come through a new heart or the new nature of the new birth. Not of our "self" in any way.

And we need His power to manifest......otherwise are the things then of our own understanding? Of religious thought? Of study through our own "sweat" and then discourse centered on what men must do rather than solely on what Jesus does through us?

 

[CS1]

Who interprets your prayers for you? You are reluctant to admit that without understanding there is no edification.

I know you want to keep tongues in the confines of 1 Cor 12-14 but they are spoken of in several sections of scripture. Remember that in apostolic times the audience was mostly Jewish and their perception of tongues is quite different from the modern Gentiles of today.

Why would Christians need a special language to speak to God? We have received the Spirit of adoption whereby we cry Abba Father. We can speak to God our Father without the vail. We speak to Him as if it were face to face.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

who interprets my prayers? when I pray I pray to God He is very able to know what I am saying . Secondly I do not want to keep tongues confined of 1cor chapter 12, 13, and 14 nope These chapters speak directly to the " Gifts of the Holy Spirit " which tongues is one. I'm sorry you disapprove of the Biblical context to which we are to get our understanding, knowledge, and wisdom from as the Holy Spirit helps us.
Now you want to move to human reasoning and ask " why would Christians need a special language to speak to God'
I don't know, the truth is The Holy Spirit led Paul write in 1 cor 12, 13, and 14 the context of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, so what is said in these chapters are authoritative on the topic. the answer to your question
was given in 1cor 14 I will yet again show you.
1cor 14:1-2
1. Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Right here it says those who speak in tongues speak to God. FYI I did not write this .
verse 3-4
3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
You have an issue with the effects what the word of God says speaking in tongues does . That is you.

 

[CS1]

You could have a calling to write fiction. A gift as it were. A self biographical work.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

yep more insults , so sad .

 

[stonesoffire]

Often visions come when praying in tongues, or hearing His Voice clearly speaking within. We forget that this is Holy Spirit imparted to us, not of our own minds and understandings.

And power in giving the gospel? The hearers know it's of God and not of man.

 

[CS1]

Can someone explain to me the uniqueness of this gift of speaking in tongues which most congregations in my neighbourhood insist on acquiring? Is it in any way superior to or more edifying than other gifts?

it is not superior to or more edifying than other gifts.

Paul said in 1cor 12:31 " 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

the best gifts means - what ever is the most effective to edify, comfort, or exhort the person and the body of Christ

 

[RickyZ]

You could have a calling to write fiction. A gift as it were. A self biographical work.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes the MRV is fiction. But so many like you were demanding it, so there it is

 

[RickyZ]

Roger ... sigh ... I know I am wasting my time here. But for the sake of the small infinitesimal microscopic near non-existent chance that you will actually listen and consider, let me answer your repeated claim that with no understanding personal tongues are useless.

First, let's context 1 Cor 14. We have to acknowledge that prophecy is different than a 'personal' tongue. Both are clearly delineated in 1 Cor 14. (I have a color coded blog post illustrating the differences, but haven't actually looked for blogs in the new format and can't find it at the moment. But you've seen - and ignored - it before). Prophecy is done in public with an interpretation. Personal is spoken in private directly between you and God. There is a time and place for each, and while we should all seek to do them, it's better we not do them at all than violate those time and place restrictions. Because violation of those time and place restrictions result in ... well, you. That is the whole lesson that is the context of 1 Cor 14.

1 Cor 14:13 For this reason the one who speaks in a (personal) tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.

How simple is this? Ask God to reveal what you are praying about. At first I didn't know. I asked Him to tell me. He did, and also explained 1 Cor 14:15 -

15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

Again, this is not some mythical thing. I pray in English and I pray in my tongue. I start out with "Lord, Roger doesn't understand, help him understand, help me be clear for him, and so on, speaking all the things my mind can think about that might bind you and help you open up and find clarity. BUT - there are things going on with you that my mind doesn't know about. How do I speak to those things? That's when the Holy Spirit takes over, praying about the mysteries that surround you that I don't know about. In my heart, in my mind, oh I understand that I am praying for you. It's just in way that lets me speak things in the Name of Jesus that I don't know about.

And whoo-eee, are there a lot of them

In all of us

Ok, I know you're not going to lissen. But like CS1 pointed out, for the sake of others who read along, there it is.

 

[notuptome]

who interprets my prayers? when I pray I pray to God He is very able to know what I am saying . Secondly I do not want to keep tongues confined of 1cor chapter 12, 13, and 14 nope These chapters speak directly to the " Gifts of the Holy Spirit " which tongues is one. I'm sorry you disapprove of the Biblical context to which we are to get our understanding, knowledge, and wisdom from as the Holy Spirit helps us.
Now you want to move to human reasoning and ask " why would Christians need a special language to speak to God'
I don't know, the truth is The Holy Spirit led Paul write in 1 cor 12, 13, and 14 the context of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, so what is said in these chapters are authoritative on the topic. the answer to your question
was given in 1cor 14 I will yet again show you.
1cor 14:1-2
1. Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Right here it says those who speak in tongues speak to God. FYI I did not write this .
verse 3-4
3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
You have an issue with the effects what the word of God says speaking in tongues does . That is you.

Ok it is obvious that God is able to understand any and all languages. God does not require an interpreter. The question remains how do you understand a tongue you do not know? You cannot be edified without knowing what it is that you are praying. This really is not a trick question but an simple inquiry.

A Christian can speak to God without an unknown tongue. We have direct access to God our Father. You are creating a mystique that is wholly unnecessary. The truth is that the Holy Spirit did not write the passage in 1 Cor 14:1-2 so you would seek to speak to God in unknown tongues. Else why would the writer in Hebrews tell us to come boldly to the throne of grace? The only means by which a man can edify himself is if he does understand the tongue in which he speaks. His audience does not but he must. For his audience to understand someone must interpret. Through the interpretation all then are able to understand and be edified.

All of the word of God is authoritative but the interpretations of men are often mixed and confused.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

Show me where scripture says they knew they were speaking in other tongues. They could see the cloven tongues of fire that sat upon them and they could hear the rushing wind but how do we know they knew they were speaking in other tongues?

I just showed it to you. Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."

This is about as straightforward and clear as it can get. The Holy Spirit empowered them to speak with other tongues.

"That has absolutely nothing to do with "cloven tongues of fire".
Represents the Holy Spirit upon them.

True, and irrelevant.

 

[notuptome]

Roger ... sigh ... I know I am wasting my time here. But for the sake of the small infinitesimal microscopic near non-existent chance that you will actually listen and consider, let me answer your repeated claim that with no understanding personal tongues are useless.

First, let's context 1 Cor 14. We have to acknowledge that prophecy is different than a 'personal' tongue. Both are clearly delineated in 1 Cor 14. (I have a color coded blog post illustrating the differences, but haven't actually looked for blogs in the new format and can't find it at the moment. But you've seen - and ignored - it before). Prophecy is done in public with an interpretation. Personal is spoken in private directly between you and God. There is a time and place for each, and while we should all seek to do them, it's better we not do them at all than violate those time and place restrictions. Because violation of those time and place restrictions result in ... well, you. That is the whole lesson that is the context of 1 Cor 14.

1 Cor 14:13 For this reason the one who speaks in a (personal) tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.

How simple is this? Ask God to reveal what you are praying about. At first I didn't know. I asked Him to tell me. He did, and also explained 1 Cor 14:15 -

15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

Again, this is not some mythical thing. I pray in English and I pray in my tongue. I start out with "Lord, Roger doesn't understand, help him understand, help me be clear for him, and so on, speaking all the things my mind can think about that might bind you and help you open up and find clarity. BUT - there are things going on with you that my mind doesn't know about. How do I speak to those things? That's when the Holy Spirit takes over, praying about the mysteries that surround you that I don't know about. In my heart, in my mind, oh I understand that I am praying for you. It's just in way that lets me speak things in the Name of Jesus that I don't know about.

And whoo-eee, are there a lot of them

In all of us

Ok, I know you're not going to lissen. But like CS1 pointed out, for the sake of others who read along, there it is.

I have offered many a prayer where I simply told God that I did not know what I should pray. It did not require some personal tongue to accomplish what you claim to accomplish by your personal tongues.

You have demonstrated what many believers face all the time. The desire to pray in the will of God about matters that you lack sufficient knowledge of to pray specifically about them.

Should I pray for a sick brother or sister in Christ to be healed or should I pray for the Lord to take them home? They may have expressed a desire to go home to Jesus but what I want to pray for is the will of God to be done. I often tell God what I think is the right thing but I'm not God so I cannot always see the end from where I am seated.

In every situation I pray with and for knowledge. I am very blessed to be able to go to God and know He hears me. It is also a joy to know God understands and gives me understanding.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

I just showed it to you. Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."
This is about as straightforward and clear as it can get. The Holy Spirit empowered them to speak with other tongues.

Yes that is what it says. It says what happened not what the apostles knew or did not know at the time. One of those who heard them said they were hearing them in their native languages. Again were all hearing at the same time or did one speak then another with the tongue changing each time?

True, and irrelevant.

Yes except that none today have the appearance of cloven tongues of fire upon their heads when they speak in tongues.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

Acknowledging that you don't always have the words to speak is perfectly legitimate. But there IS power in the spoken word. Such a shame that God can't somehow enable us speak the words we don't know. Such a shame.

 

[notuptome]

Acknowledging that you don't always have the words to speak is perfectly legitimate. But there IS power in the spoken word. Such a shame that God can't somehow enable us speak the words we don't know. Such a shame.

Much greater is Gods grace. Neh 8:15 for the joy of the Lord is our strength.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

Yes that is what it says. It says what happened not what the apostles knew or did not know at the time. One of those who heard them said they were hearing them in their native languages. Again were all hearing at the same time or did one speak then another with the tongue changing each time?

These things are not recorded, so we go by what is recorded: that they spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. If you start arguing with the plain record of the text, you can make it say whatever you want, but that doesn't lead to sound understanding.

Yes except that none today have the appearance of cloven tongues of fire upon their heads when they speak in tongues.

... Which is also not recorded on any of the other occasions recorded in Scripture where believers spoke in tongues. Therefore it is not a "required sign of confirmation" at all. As for the "none today" part, that is speculation on your part and is therefore an invalid point.

 

[RickyZ]

Why do you result to insults and rudeness ? I find it funny how those who are shown scripture and cannot support the position they hold using gen 11, gravitate to rudeness and insults. Then when called on they say I'm not trying to be insulting or rude . BUT you are. lets drop it RickyZ was right Hey Rickyz you were right I was wrong . Thank you

Roger is a strange one. God lov'um.

 

[yellowcanary]

Acknowledging that you don't always have the words to speak is perfectly legitimate. But there IS power in the spoken word. Such a shame that God can't somehow enable us speak the words we don't know. Such a shame.

Why would God enabling us to speak the words we don't know be in a language that we also don't know or comprehend ? Where is the understanding in that ?

 

[notuptome]

These things are not recorded, so we go by what is recorded: that they spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. If you start arguing with the plain record of the text, you can make it say whatever you want, but that doesn't lead to sound understanding.

I'm not the one contending that no knowledge of what you speak can lead to understanding. So while you may accuse me of not having sound understanding you are left with no understanding.

... Which is also not recorded on any of the other occasions recorded in Scripture where believers spoke in tongues. Therefore it is not a "required sign of confirmation" at all. As for the "none today" part, that is speculation on your part and is therefore an invalid point.

Yet when the apostles returned to Jerusalem they said tongues appeared so those around would know that these had received the Holy Spirit same as we. So yes tongues were a sign of the Holy Spirit upon in Acts even Gentiles so the Jews from Jerusalem would know that God was saving Gentiles as well as Jews.

Acts 10:44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Especially verse 45.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Acknowledging that you don't always have the words to speak is perfectly legitimate. But there IS power in the spoken word. Such a shame that God can't somehow enable us speak the words we don't know. Such a shame.

The power is in understanding. Gods word is able to make you wise unto salvation. Speak all you want if no one understands you have accomplished nothing. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. No understanding no faith and no salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Roger is a strange one. God lov'um.

Gods people are a peculiar people.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

Why would God enabling us to speak the words we don't know be in a language that we also don't know or comprehend ? Where is the understanding in that ?

It would seem their understanding is ….there needs to be none .

They say it a sign that men are being filled with the Holy Spirit. But even that's a understanding. Coming from someone, somehow?

Most likely those idenfied as a evil generation the generation of Adam, natural unconverted men .


Converted men, the generation of Christ have God's understanding, as it is written . with "it" representing the faith of God not seen.

Luke 11:29And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: "they (alone) seek" a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. (the gospel)