What must I do to be saved

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plaintalk

Senior Member
Jul 20, 2015
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DOING or ACTING is something we intrinsically ARE. Doing, or acting can't get you saved. Only being born again can do that. IF you are a Child of God you WILL DO or ACT like you were BORN to be. So His Children WILL love Him, and WILL love their neighbor. This may take time to manifest through the indwelt Presence of the Holy Spirit working in our lives, but it WILL happen because it's who we are now.

Sheep to the Shepherd. "What must I do to be a sheep?" Shepherd responds, " Bear wool, Baa with your mouth, harm no one, give birth to lambs, and follow my voice".

Is that sheep a sheep BECAUSE he DOES those things, or does he do those things BECAUSE he is born a sheep?

Born Again

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say unto you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (John 3: 5)

We must be born of water and Spirit. When do we encounter these two items? “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and a new spirit with in you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall be careful to observe My ordinances.” (Ez. 36: 25-27) Now compare that with Acts 2: 38. “And Peter said, Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” In each case there is a cleansing with water followed by the giving of the Spirit.
We cannot be born (come out of) water and Spirit unless we are first immersed in both, that is the one baptism. When we are baptized in water, in the name of Christ, we are immersed in water. Jesus then pours the Spirit out upon us richly and abundantly (Titus 3: 5, 6), immersing us in the Spirit. (1 Cor. 12: 13) So we receive the benefits of both water and Spirit.

When we come forth from this one baptism, we are born of water and the Spirit and we enter the kingdom of God. This saves us from having to make water into marmalade or some other thing.
God bless
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Justification- Redemption

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the richness of His grace. (Eph. 1: 7)
In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (Col. 1: 14)
In Colossians 1:14, "through His blood" is a reference, not limited to the fluid as if the blood has saving properties in it's chemistry and we literally contact it in the waters of baptism, but is an expression pointing to the totality of Christ's atoning work as a sacrifice for sin. The word "cross" is also used similarly to refer to the whole atoning work of Christ on the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18; Galatians 6:12,14; Ephesians 2:16).

And such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor. 6: 11) And now why do you wait? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22: 16) You are confusing spiritual washing/purification of the soul (which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation through repentance/faith BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18) with water baptism. The "washing away of sin" in water baptism was only "formal" or symbolic. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. Water baptism does not cleanse the soul from sin.

Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).

*No Scripture is to be interpretated in isololation from the totality of Scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.

Repent therefore and return, that your sins may be wiped away, in order that the times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. (Acts 3: 19)
Repentance is a "change of mind" and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same experience. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood. May grace and peace be with you in the fullest. (1 Peter 1: 2)
Do you understand what "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" means? Sanctification begins with justification (when the new believer is accounted as righteous through faith and set apart/made holy positionally in Christ) and progressive sanctification continues as a process in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. Believers are set apart for obedience to Christ. The shedding of Christ's blood on the cross gives the believer atonement for sin and brings the believer into covenant with God.

Let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our heats sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Hen 10: 22)
Hebrews 10:22 in the NASB reads - let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. *Notice the order. Reference to this verse as proving regeneration, or the new birth, by water baptism ignores the point of the contrasting of that sprinkling which affects the heart, removing from it an evil conscience, and that washing of the body with pure water. It is the sprinkling (with the Blood of Christ- Hebrews 9:14; I Peter 1:2) which touches the heart. The washing of pure water affects the body.

The writer of Hebrews shows us that no outward ceremony affects the heart (Hebrews 9:13ff.). He would not, and does not contradict himself here by teaching that the washing of the body in water accomplishes an inward cleansing. The former is inward and spiritual, "of the heart" (Romans 2:28-29), and the latter is outward and physical, or "of the flesh" (Romans 2:28-29). The washing of the body in pure water does not present baptism as the means of the cleansing or purifying of the heart. The sprinkling with the Blood of Christ is, and washing our bodies with water is expressly distinguished from sprinkling with the Blood of Christ. Since water baptism is not the means of purifying the heart from sin, it is not the means of regeneration, and it is not absolutely necessary for salvation.

Sometimes we can confuse our terms if we don’t pay close attention to the Scripture. Clearly, forgiveness of sin is called “redemption” not justification and forgiveness of sin is associated with repentance and baptism in water, in the name of Christ; where in we are washed from our sin. When we obey Jesus Christ (through repentance and baptism) we are sprinkled with the blood of Christ, the ultimate cleaning agent. How do we have this assurance? Because God says that when our bodies are washed with pure water, you are also being sprinkled with His blood. God does not lie.
God does not lie, but man does not always correctly interpret God's word (1 Corinthians 2:14). When we obey Jesus Christ by choosing to believe the gospel, we are sprinkled with the blood of Christ and receive cleansing from sin BEFORE water baptism. You continue to confuse the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism).
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Born Again

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say unto you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (John 3: 5)

We must be born of water and Spirit. When do we encounter these two items? “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and a new spirit with in you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall be careful to observe My ordinances.” (Ez. 36: 25-27) Now compare that with Acts 2: 38. “And Peter said, Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” In each case there is a cleansing with water followed by the giving of the Spirit.
We cannot be born (come out of) water and Spirit unless we are first immersed in both, that is the one baptism. When we are baptized in water, in the name of Christ, we are immersed in water. Jesus then pours the Spirit out upon us richly and abundantly (Titus 3: 5, 6), immersing us in the Spirit. (1 Cor. 12: 13) So we receive the benefits of both water and Spirit.

When we come forth from this one baptism, we are born of water and the Spirit and we enter the kingdom of God. This saves us from having to make water into marmalade or some other thing.
God bless
That is the gospel according to Campbellism, but not according to God's word. :cautious:

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* :)

Have you considered living water in John 3:5? Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. *Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that? If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit.

*Water baptism is the picture or symbol of the new birth, but not the means of securing it.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Abraham now has faith, because of the word that God spoke to him.

Faith comes by hearing the word (Rhema) of God.
I understand that is what you believe.

I believe Abraham already had faith and when he heard the Word of God, Abraham did not restrain or suppress the truth and he obeyed the instruction. The result of Abraham's obedience was that his faith was strengthened.




justpassinthrough said:
Faith comes by hearing the word (Rhema) of God.
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Read the next couple of verses following verse 17:


18 But I say, Have they [Israel] not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know?



Hasn't Israel "heard"?

Yes, Israel "heard".

If, as according to you, faith comes by hearing the word (Rhema) of God, then Israel should not have rejected Messiah.

However, we know that it was only those who did not suppress the truth in unrighteousness who obtained salvation through hearing the Word of God.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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In the passage, the in which also you stand' makes it impossible that 'unless you believed in vain' means in case they never 'really' believed to begin with:
False. "in which you stand" by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you" is in CONTRAST to - "UNLESS you believed in vain."

*Again to believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."-1 Corinthians 15:1-2
The verb 'stand' in 'in which also you stand' in verse 1 is in the perfect tense and in the indicative mood. That means the action (standing in the gospel) has happened already. That means they really did believe. He's affirming that they have indeed been saved and were standing on the gospel message they heard and received from him. So the veracity of their believing, whether it was real or fake, is not what is in question here.
Standing in the truth of the gospel has already happened for those who truly believe the gospel and are saved and holding fast to the word Paul preached to them was the demonstrative evidence that confirmed their salvation status, yet Paul knows that is not the case for those who believed in vain/without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

What is in question here is if Christ has really been raised from the dead (they are being told that he did not rise from the dead), and if they are going to continue in the true gospel and be saved, the one he preached that says he was raised from the dead.
Those who truly believe that Christ really has been raised from the dead demonstrate it by continuing to believe. Those who fail to continue demonstrate that their shallow, temporary belief was never firmly rooted and established in the gospel message from the start.

Christ being risen or not is what determines if their real faith in the gospel is in vain or not. If Christ did not really rise from the dead there is no basis for the real faith they started out with when they received and stood on Paul's gospel message, therefore, that believing would be in vain.
If Christ never did rise from the dead, then faith in Paul's gospel message would be in vain because the resurrection of Christ is an essential part of the gospel, yet that is certainly not the case because Christ absolutely DID rise from the dead.

We can see for ourselves that the meaning of 'unless you believed in vain' comes right from the passage itself. We know what 'believed in vain' means from vs. 14 and 17:

"14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain."

"17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. "

1 Corinthians 15:14,17
That is the other meaning, yet that meaning alone does not fit your "lose your salvation" scenario in 1 Corinthians 15:2. Those who fail to hold fast to the word Paul preached to them in 1 Corinthians 15:2 "believed in vain/without cause or without effect, to no purpose" because by failing to hold fast to the word Paul preached, they demonstrated that their belief fell short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation.

Believing in vain does not mean them not 'really' believing the gospel in the first place as you say.
It certainly does. Again, to believe in vain means to believe/without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

Paul plainly says they did really believe his gospel (vs. 1).
Those who held fast to the word Paul preached to them (and did not believe in vain) demonstrated that they really did believe his gospel (vs. 2).

What is in question is if they are going to stick to the original message they heard and received and be presently saved, and if Christ really was raised from the dead, for if he wasn't then the true believing they have done will have been in vain. Even continuing in true believing can't make a false gospel (Christ is not risen) able to save.
What is in question is if they are going to hold fast to word Paul preached to them and demonstrate they are truly saved or believe in vain and demonstrate otherwise (vs. 1-2). The faith of genuine believers would be in vain if Christ did not rise from the dead (as some among them were saying there is no resurrection of the dead - vs. 12) but of course, that is not the case because Christ DID rise from the dead. Praise God! :)
 
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Ralph-

Guest
False. "in which you stand" by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you" is in CONTRAST to - "UNLESS you believed in vain."
The problem is you are contrasting it with the wrong thing.

The thing that makes the salvation that Paul says they have in vain is if Jesus has not really risen from the dead. Paul explains this right in the passage.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Standing in the truth of the gospel has already happened for those who truly believe the gospel and are saved and holding fast to the word Paul preached to them was the demonstrative evidence that confirmed their salvation status, yet Paul knows that is not the case for those who believed in vain/without cause or without effect, to no purpose.
He is saying this is not the case for those who believed if Jesus has not been raised from dead. It's right there in the passage!

2 ...unless you believed in vain.
14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.


As we can plainly see, Paul himself tells us what "unless you believed in vain" means.

There is no need to invent still another 'not really' once saved always saved argument. The passage plainly tells us what it means for the Corinthians to have potentially believed in vain. It has nothing to do with having 'not really' believed.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Those who truly believe that Christ really has been raised from the dead demonstrate it by continuing to believe. Those who fail to continue demonstrate that their shallow, temporary belief was never firmly rooted and established in the gospel message from the start.
And so you can never know if you 'really' believe because what you thought was firmly rooted 'real' faith in Christ today may be proven tomorrow to not be that at all. Even Calvinism, from where this teaching comes from, says no one can know if they are a true believer or not in this age. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security and assurance? That's a joke!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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The problem is you are contrasting it with the wrong thing.

The thing that makes the salvation that Paul says they have in vain is if Jesus has not really risen from the dead. Paul explains this right in the passage.
First you used 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 as a prooftext that there are those who start out truly believing the gospel and are saved, but later stop believing the gospel and lose their salvation. Yet now you are back peddling? That is not the scenario in vss. 14 and 17.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
First you used 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 as a prooftext that there are those who start out truly believing the gospel and are saved, but later stop believing the gospel and lose their salvation. Yet now you are back peddling? That is not the scenario in vss. 14 and 17.
You're grasping.

I used 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 to show that the believer has to keep believing to keep being saved.

Paul is telling us plainly that the Corinthians believed his gospel. And he says they are saved as long as they are clinging to his gospel..................unless Jesus did not really rise from the dead, which makes their believing vain.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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The problem is you are contrasting it with the wrong thing.

The thing that makes the salvation that Paul says they have in vain is if Jesus has not really risen from the dead. Paul explains this right in the passage.
Don’t confuse vss. 14 and 17 with verse 2. In verse 2, Paul said we are saved by the gospel if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
Don’t confuse vss. 14 and 17 with verse 2. In verse 2, Paul said we are saved by the gospel if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
You're inventing a meaning for 'unless you believed in vain' that Paul is not using in the passage. Vs. 14 and 17 explain exactly what he meant by the possibility of their faith being in vain. The faith they surely had (Paul said so in vs. 1) is vain if Christ has not risen from the dead. He explains to them that was not part of the gospel they heard from him and which they received and upon which they stand.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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I believe Abraham already had faith
Abraham received faith when God spoke to Him.


So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17


That is how we receive faith.


We don't just already, somehow have faith.


Faith is the divine substance of the the thing we are hoping to receive from God.


Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


Faith is what we receive when God speaks to us.


If we have faith, it's because God spoken to us, moved upon us, inspired us by communicating with us.


7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7


God spoke to Noah warning Him of the impending flood that was coming, now Noah has faith.


Noah did not have faith to build the Ark, before God spoke to him.


We also know that with this faith came the divine ability to what he could not do without it; Grace.


Without the grace of God, to strengthen Noah and to aid in getting all the animals in the boat, as well as teaching him how to go about the task itself, then Noah wouldn't have been able to accomplish his work in and of himself.


This is why the scripture says for it is by grace through faith we are saved.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8


Grace gives us the power to do what God has commanded us to do.

Faith is the divine substance of what God intends to give us, if we activate the faith through obedience.


Obedience to what God speaks to us, which is how we receive faith, is how that faith comes alive; is activated to produce the intended divine result.


Example:


21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [complete] perfect? James 2:21-22


  • faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [complete] perfect


Without the corresponding action of obedience, to the word of God by which we receive faith, that faith we receive id dormant, dead, inactive and incomplete, unable to produce the intended divine result.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without [the work of obedience] works is dead also. James 2:26



JPT
 

mailmandan

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You're grasping.

I used 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 to show that the believer has to keep believing to keep being saved.

Paul is telling us plainly that the Corinthians believed his gospel. And he says they are saved as long as they are clinging to his gospel..................unless Jesus did not really rise from the dead, which makes their believing vain.
You are grasping by trying to force versus 14 and 17 to fit with verses 1 and 2. Believing in vain by failing to hold fast to the gospel that Paul preached (vs. 2) and believing in vain in verses 14 and 17 if there is no resurrection are two different scenarios.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
You are grasping by trying to force versus 14 and 17 to fit with verses 1 and 2. Believing in vain by failing to hold fast to the gospel that Paul preached (vs. 2) and believing in vain in verses 14 and 17 if there is no resurrection are two different scenarios.
For the sake of your argument, let's make 'unless you believed in vain' mean 'unless you never really believed in the first place'. How does that change the fact that Paul says you are presently saved if you are presently believing? It doesn't, of course. All it means is they were never saved to begin with for it to even matter.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
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They believed in vain because they didn't hold fast to it. Compare with "You dieted in vain because you didn't stick with it."
And there is a reason why they didn’t stick with it. Faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start or else they would have held fast to it.
 
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You cannot hold fast to that which you cannot attain.

It is Christ Who hold me not me holding Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible is filled with the command to "hold fast" to the word of Life; to hold fast to Christ.


18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. Colossians 2:18-19

  • and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together

again


  • holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. Philippians 2:16


again


but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:6


  • whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.





by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1


The condition of "if" is clear, we must hold fast the Gospel message, the word of life, which is how we were saved, born again, regenerated by, if we are to receive the salvation of our soul, on that Day when He comes.


6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9


  • receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.



Those who depart from the faith, not holding fast to the end will not be saved on the Day of Judgement; The Day of Christ.

Those who depart from the faith, have departed from the very substance of their salvation.


The false heretical doctrine of OSAS, is a doctrine of demons designed to keep people in deception, and blinded to the truth, so that they will believe the lie!


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



  • some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons




JPT