Doctrine of Immutability (Eternal Security)
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I do not find it amusing but you should be terrified at the prospect of an eternity apart from Christ. Outer darkness and the lake of fire are no laughing matter.
God made you in His image and likeness. God loves you as if you were the only person in the world. You spurn His love and consider it of no consequence. All your intellectual advisors will not fair any better but that will be of no comfort. Your liberty will be turned into bondage.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
God made you in His image and likeness. God loves you as if you were the only person in the world. You spurn His love and consider it of no consequence. All your intellectual advisors will not fair any better but that will be of no comfort. Your liberty will be turned into bondage.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
S
I have lived that live. Whether my faith was genuine is something that only God knows; if in fact it is the Bible worldview that makes up our reality. I Empathize with Christianity because I once was there. I too believed it at one point. I really, truly did as far as I could tell. Again I'm not an atheist by any means. I'm just at a point in my life where I am not sure about a lot of things. If the Bible worldview is true, then God did in fact start his good work in me. Doesn't that also mean that He will then complete it?
You are thinking about eisegesis and exegesis, exegesis being a person drawing out the meaning of a text through context. Eisegesis is imposing an interpretation onto the verses. I am not dismissing the necessity of exegesis, but somewhat along the lines of eisegesis I am asking people to consider these facts, established in scripture, with their current interpretations of other verses that seem to suggest a loss of salvation as opposed to eternal security.
You are half right, and half wrong. At first I am actually using exegesis to establish truths that, again, are immutable. It is once these truths have been stated, objective as they are, that I am then proposing that one reconsider their stances on other verses in acknowledgement of these truths. At this point you could argue it would become eisegesis, but the problem lies in the contradictions that arise once we have facts that are indisputable. In some ways, it forces eisegesis.
I would disagree that I haven't shown how God's word reveals these truths, as they are all stated in the OP. I didn't include chapter and verse, but did quote scripture throughout. I didn't want this to be a battle of who has more verses, but instead, a stating of facts that both sides must agree on as God's word is plain.
You are half right, and half wrong. At first I am actually using exegesis to establish truths that, again, are immutable. It is once these truths have been stated, objective as they are, that I am then proposing that one reconsider their stances on other verses in acknowledgement of these truths. At this point you could argue it would become eisegesis, but the problem lies in the contradictions that arise once we have facts that are indisputable. In some ways, it forces eisegesis.
I would disagree that I haven't shown how God's word reveals these truths, as they are all stated in the OP. I didn't include chapter and verse, but did quote scripture throughout. I didn't want this to be a battle of who has more verses, but instead, a stating of facts that both sides must agree on as God's word is plain.
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Your honesty about your approach is refreshing and real - I still heartily disagree with some of your "overarching truths" but I like how you took the time to explain yourself - and you did it clearly and not from a defensive mode . . .
I personally think that if we properly exegete Scripture it will always lead to truths that do not contradict any other Scripture. Thus I disagree that we ever have to resort to any sort of "eisegesis". The idea that there are verses (properly exegeted from context) that support both sides of an issue is a myth.
If one person starts his study of Scripture with a presupposition of OSAS (any other issue could fit here as well) he will "find" overarching truths that support that view. Then he interprets all Scripture from these overarching truths. The person who starts his study of Scripture with a presupposition against OSAS will "find" overarching truths that support his view. Then he interprets all Scripture from his overarching truths. And then the two lock horns on CC!! LOL!
I personally think that if we properly exegete Scripture it will always lead to truths that do not contradict any other Scripture. Thus I disagree that we ever have to resort to any sort of "eisegesis". The idea that there are verses (properly exegeted from context) that support both sides of an issue is a myth.
If one person starts his study of Scripture with a presupposition of OSAS (any other issue could fit here as well) he will "find" overarching truths that support that view. Then he interprets all Scripture from these overarching truths. The person who starts his study of Scripture with a presupposition against OSAS will "find" overarching truths that support his view. Then he interprets all Scripture from his overarching truths. And then the two lock horns on CC!! LOL!
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I believe you are a born again Christian.
You seem to be very dedicated to knowing the truth.
What verse or passage did you read that seem to conflict ?
The more we grow up into Him the more established in the truth of His doctrine we become.
11 And He Himself gave some to beapostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—
Ephesians 4:11-15
JPT
You seem to be very dedicated to knowing the truth.
What verse or passage did you read that seem to conflict ?
The more we grow up into Him the more established in the truth of His doctrine we become.
11 And He Himself gave some to beapostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—
Ephesians 4:11-15
- till we all come to the unity of the faith
JPT
I think it's always valuable to ascertain, rather than assign, the motives of people. I have too often done the latter. Understand that many, if not most atheists or former believers come here to stir up trouble, or worse, are led by an unclean spirit to attempt to cast doubt in the minds of baby Christians or the honest skeptics.
I don't know what your motives for spending your time and your Saturday afternoon on a website dedicated to worshiping our Lord, and building each other up in Him is. I will take your word that you are here to see if there is any faith that can be rekindled.
Now, you say you are not an atheist, but no longer a Christian. So what exactly do you no longer believe? Is Jesus the Son of God, and do you believe He died for our sins and rose again from the dead?
You "knew" you were saved? Well this is what Scripture says about those who say they were saved but no longer believe:
1 John 2:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
It is tragic that Christians CAN'T live up to our expectations of who we thought they were, or should be, or act like. Part of your journey of failing faith seems to have occurred because of what HUMANS have done. HUMANS will always disappoint us. That's why our faith must be COMPLETELY Rooted In Jesus alone.
One day you realized Solomon was right, and this had a profound effect upon your faith? Of course Solomon is right! Here we have the Wisest human who ever lived, understand with massive human FLESHLY intellect, that ALL is vain. Solomon represents the pinnacle of HUMAN achievement. THE goal of our fleshly human mind. His life and story is vital for us to understand WITHOUT God, and WITHOUT a Hope in eternal life through His Son, all of our existence is nothing more than a puff of smoke. This realization should drive us CLOSER to God not further away.
Biblianity? No. We just understand what, or rather WHO the Word is:
John 1:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Hebrews 4:12 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 For the WORD of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The Bible was not written to unite humanity. But to give humanity a hope of redemption. More than 95% of It deals with redeeming fallen human beings. It is a love story. Written in Blood on a Cross.
I pray to The Heavenly Father in His Son's precious Name, that you ARE here to recapture the love you say you had for Him, and the joy in that knowledge gives you an deeper, more inexpressible love for Him and others.
I don't know what your motives for spending your time and your Saturday afternoon on a website dedicated to worshiping our Lord, and building each other up in Him is. I will take your word that you are here to see if there is any faith that can be rekindled.
Now, you say you are not an atheist, but no longer a Christian. So what exactly do you no longer believe? Is Jesus the Son of God, and do you believe He died for our sins and rose again from the dead?
You "knew" you were saved? Well this is what Scripture says about those who say they were saved but no longer believe:
1 John 2:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
It is tragic that Christians CAN'T live up to our expectations of who we thought they were, or should be, or act like. Part of your journey of failing faith seems to have occurred because of what HUMANS have done. HUMANS will always disappoint us. That's why our faith must be COMPLETELY Rooted In Jesus alone.
One day you realized Solomon was right, and this had a profound effect upon your faith? Of course Solomon is right! Here we have the Wisest human who ever lived, understand with massive human FLESHLY intellect, that ALL is vain. Solomon represents the pinnacle of HUMAN achievement. THE goal of our fleshly human mind. His life and story is vital for us to understand WITHOUT God, and WITHOUT a Hope in eternal life through His Son, all of our existence is nothing more than a puff of smoke. This realization should drive us CLOSER to God not further away.
Biblianity? No. We just understand what, or rather WHO the Word is:
John 1:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Hebrews 4:12 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 For the WORD of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The Bible was not written to unite humanity. But to give humanity a hope of redemption. More than 95% of It deals with redeeming fallen human beings. It is a love story. Written in Blood on a Cross.
I pray to The Heavenly Father in His Son's precious Name, that you ARE here to recapture the love you say you had for Him, and the joy in that knowledge gives you an deeper, more inexpressible love for Him and others.
You are eternally secured from God's curses and eternal damnation as long as you will live by the Words of God in the Bible.
if you failed to do that then the opposite will happen.
it does not mean you believe Jesus is your Lord and Savior is you are saved automatically.
you need to live in holiness too (2 Peter 3:10-11)
Remember there are Jesus' believers but wicked in the eyes of the Savior (read Matthew 7:21-23)
if you failed to do that then the opposite will happen.
it does not mean you believe Jesus is your Lord and Savior is you are saved automatically.
you need to live in holiness too (2 Peter 3:10-11)
Remember there are Jesus' believers but wicked in the eyes of the Savior (read Matthew 7:21-23)
Thank you for this Yahshua. What a wonderful post of truth and hope.
It is these reply's that come from you that is the reason I stalk your posts
I did an in-depth study years ago on the Spiritual meaning of "water" in the Bible. I worked to rid my mind of all preconceived ideas of what it meant and spent literally months examining every time the word "water" was used and the Hebrew/Greek meanings, and the context, etc., fasting, prayer and so on. It was good to have an entire day each week to dedicate to study.
The result of the study showed me that the Spiritual meaning for "Water" is actually "influence" in most cases. There are Godly influences and Worldly influences. We are molded by which influence we surround our self with.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under (Below) the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
To drink of the "Living water", to wash in the Jordan river, the great flood of influence to destroy all Flesh upon the face of the earth, and the Ark God showed Noah how to build to avoid destruction.
It is a long study but has helped me understand terms like "leaven of the Pharisees" "Living water" and the promise that in the New Earth, never again the flood of destructive influence and the rainbow to show the promise.
As Jesus said "Take My Yoke upon you, and learn from Me". Not listen and follow other voices who use parts of God's Word as the serpent did to Eve. But to submerge ourselves, to be baptized, surrounded by, the Living water.
Great post Yahshua, don't keep all that savvy to yourself
It is these reply's that come from you that is the reason I stalk your posts
I did an in-depth study years ago on the Spiritual meaning of "water" in the Bible. I worked to rid my mind of all preconceived ideas of what it meant and spent literally months examining every time the word "water" was used and the Hebrew/Greek meanings, and the context, etc., fasting, prayer and so on. It was good to have an entire day each week to dedicate to study.
The result of the study showed me that the Spiritual meaning for "Water" is actually "influence" in most cases. There are Godly influences and Worldly influences. We are molded by which influence we surround our self with.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under (Below) the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
To drink of the "Living water", to wash in the Jordan river, the great flood of influence to destroy all Flesh upon the face of the earth, and the Ark God showed Noah how to build to avoid destruction.
It is a long study but has helped me understand terms like "leaven of the Pharisees" "Living water" and the promise that in the New Earth, never again the flood of destructive influence and the rainbow to show the promise.
As Jesus said "Take My Yoke upon you, and learn from Me". Not listen and follow other voices who use parts of God's Word as the serpent did to Eve. But to submerge ourselves, to be baptized, surrounded by, the Living water.
Great post Yahshua, don't keep all that savvy to yourself
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Thank you for this Yahshua. What a wonderful post of truth and hope.
It is these reply's that come from you that is the reason I stalk your posts
I did an in-depth study years ago on the Spiritual meaning of "water" in the Bible. I worked to rid my mind of all preconceived ideas of what it meant and spent literally months examining every time the word "water" was used and the Hebrew/Greek meanings, and the context, etc., fasting, prayer and so on. It was good to have an entire day each week to dedicate to study.
The result of the study showed me that the Spiritual meaning for "Water" is actually "influence" in most cases. There are Godly influences and Worldly influences. We are molded by which influence we surround our self with.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under (Below) the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
To drink of the "Living water", to wash in the Jordan river, the great flood of influence to destroy all Flesh upon the face of the earth, and the Ark God showed Noah how to build to avoid destruction.
It is a long study but has helped me understand terms like "leaven of the Pharisees" "Living water" and the promise that in the New Earth, never again the flood of destructive influence and the rainbow to show the promise.
As Jesus said "Take My Yoke upon you, and learn from Me". Not listen and follow other voices who use parts of God's Word as the serpent did to Eve. But to submerge ourselves, to be baptized, surrounded by, the Living water.
Great post Yahshua, don't keep all that savvy to yourself
It is these reply's that come from you that is the reason I stalk your posts
I did an in-depth study years ago on the Spiritual meaning of "water" in the Bible. I worked to rid my mind of all preconceived ideas of what it meant and spent literally months examining every time the word "water" was used and the Hebrew/Greek meanings, and the context, etc., fasting, prayer and so on. It was good to have an entire day each week to dedicate to study.
The result of the study showed me that the Spiritual meaning for "Water" is actually "influence" in most cases. There are Godly influences and Worldly influences. We are molded by which influence we surround our self with.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under (Below) the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
To drink of the "Living water", to wash in the Jordan river, the great flood of influence to destroy all Flesh upon the face of the earth, and the Ark God showed Noah how to build to avoid destruction.
It is a long study but has helped me understand terms like "leaven of the Pharisees" "Living water" and the promise that in the New Earth, never again the flood of destructive influence and the rainbow to show the promise.
As Jesus said "Take My Yoke upon you, and learn from Me". Not listen and follow other voices who use parts of God's Word as the serpent did to Eve. But to submerge ourselves, to be baptized, surrounded by, the Living water.
Great post Yahshua, don't keep all that savvy to yourself
Yes there's such a vast amount of understanding to unlock just by doing simple word study and thematic study. There's so much more for us if we're willing to ask Yah and dig deeper past the surface.
"Oh the depth of the riches of Yah's wisdom."
For the edification of those here; take your genesis passage for instance, and adding to the understanding you shared of living waters, we have:
Waters from above (or water that ascends to heaven because of the "Sun [of righteousness]" effecting a change upon it; malachi 4:2)...
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they alsowhich pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
...Vs. Waters from below (that crash upon each other, striving and churning. No peace; daniel 7:2) ...
Revelation 17:15
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
Daniel 7:3
And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
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...it helps me to understand an even deeper meaning of Christ walking on water.
Christ couldn't possibly sink because he's not (water) from below, but from above. The two waters can not possibly mix as Yah's word in genesis can not return to him void.
What a promise given to those who are faithful and obedient; to be like Christ is.
Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
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@BenFTW - You ARE a gem man! The way you wrote up those coupla posts was like I was reading legal arguments! Something akin to how Paul must have sounded, in his arguments. Although, I imagine much of the "artistry, or beauty" in, and of his word usage, loses some lustre, over the course of millennia! His arguments are still QUITE valid, recognizable, and discernible. Great effort, and well done sir!
Being technologically challenged, which I don't consider it to be a bad thing. For, or to those, who would argue that? KISS MY GRITS!
@Seedz - As oft times happens, not only in life, but, also in open forums such as this? There are those (how can I say) OF a "higher CALLING ALREADY!" The "pressing on" to these ones, are in the "getting synched up with whichever "everlasting" (earth/heaven age), we find ourselves in at the time!" The "spiritual WAR" for these, REMAINS THE SAME! Hunting, chasing, stalking, fighting, and warring, against those, who are like "ravenous lions", seeking something to DEVOUR! WHEREVER these ones find it "lurking!"
As it seems you had at one time, believed, and accepted Jesus Christ, and having been baptized, (I hope)? DON'T give UP on that! For these are ones, to whom The Father has GIVEN unto Jesus! As it gives "honor" unto the Father AND the Son! Think of these, if you will, as the "other" son, in Jesus' parable concerning the prodigal. These ones who have been "working the fields" (if you will? WARRING AGAINST God's enemies) ALL ALONG!
Therefore, there is NO condemnation AGAINST these ones "given" to Christ! And, although, they are "blind. in part", these haven't been where these other's have BEEN, and yet are still! As "looking through a dark glass dimly."
As these ones sing "world without end?" These "others", know this is not the case! As, ALSO the enemies of God "know!" Elstwise, these others would NOT be here, in numbers, and increasing!
So, these ones go on, helping who they can, when they can. This is the "why" to, Don't give UP on "The sheep gate!" As these ones "abilities" in the "breaking THROUGH" the "void" that the Traditions of men have "created", helps in the aiding, and the proper dissemination of information pertaining to to Word of God, that NEVER passes away! Although, heaven and earth (ages) MAY!...AND DO!!
Being technologically challenged, which I don't consider it to be a bad thing. For, or to those, who would argue that? KISS MY GRITS!
@Seedz - As oft times happens, not only in life, but, also in open forums such as this? There are those (how can I say) OF a "higher CALLING ALREADY!" The "pressing on" to these ones, are in the "getting synched up with whichever "everlasting" (earth/heaven age), we find ourselves in at the time!" The "spiritual WAR" for these, REMAINS THE SAME! Hunting, chasing, stalking, fighting, and warring, against those, who are like "ravenous lions", seeking something to DEVOUR! WHEREVER these ones find it "lurking!"
As it seems you had at one time, believed, and accepted Jesus Christ, and having been baptized, (I hope)? DON'T give UP on that! For these are ones, to whom The Father has GIVEN unto Jesus! As it gives "honor" unto the Father AND the Son! Think of these, if you will, as the "other" son, in Jesus' parable concerning the prodigal. These ones who have been "working the fields" (if you will? WARRING AGAINST God's enemies) ALL ALONG!
Therefore, there is NO condemnation AGAINST these ones "given" to Christ! And, although, they are "blind. in part", these haven't been where these other's have BEEN, and yet are still! As "looking through a dark glass dimly."
As these ones sing "world without end?" These "others", know this is not the case! As, ALSO the enemies of God "know!" Elstwise, these others would NOT be here, in numbers, and increasing!
So, these ones go on, helping who they can, when they can. This is the "why" to, Don't give UP on "The sheep gate!" As these ones "abilities" in the "breaking THROUGH" the "void" that the Traditions of men have "created", helps in the aiding, and the proper dissemination of information pertaining to to Word of God, that NEVER passes away! Although, heaven and earth (ages) MAY!...AND DO!!
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Do you know the meaning of being justified by grace through faith?
Take some time to study this doctrine. Eternal life is GOD'S GIFT to the person who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. Once given, this gift remains for eternity since it involves ETERNAL LIFE and the New Birth. And there are many other facets to salvation which go along with this.
It would appear that many Christians do not really have a grasp of the salvation which God brings to men by His grace. Which must result in a transformed life.
Take some time to study this doctrine. Eternal life is GOD'S GIFT to the person who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. Once given, this gift remains for eternity since it involves ETERNAL LIFE and the New Birth. And there are many other facets to salvation which go along with this.
It would appear that many Christians do not really have a grasp of the salvation which God brings to men by His grace. Which must result in a transformed life.