Lying wonders or true wonders?

[garee]

Wonders as that which causes unseen wonderment come from where we get the word wonderful.

True wonders as a source of faith are the wonderful works of God that works in the believer. lying wonders come from the work of father of lies .

Lying wonder as wonderful works we perform as in self edifying are reckoned as self righteous.... workers of inequity.

Notice God who is not served by human hands (will) did not say he did not perform them.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mathew 7

Any other thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[garee]

A good example of those who seek after a sign as a lying wonder(lying source of faith) is given in Luke 11. with a woman typified as Catholic (sign seeker) hoping the kingdom of God s does come by what the eyes see therefore not "mixing faith" in what the eyes see . She weaseled her way into the conversation interrupted the point Jesus was making. Christ used it as way of teaches... we must walk by faith in respect to all things written in the law and the fathers (sola scriptura)

She had a false hope the corrupted flesh of the Son of man who said it cannot profit could profit and could be contributed to the queen of heaven

And it came to pass, in his saying these things, a certain woman having lifted up the voice out of the multitude, said to him, `Happy the womb that carried thee, and the paps that thou didst suck!'And he said, `Yea, rather, happy those hearing the word of God, and keeping [it]!'And the multitudes crowding together upon him, he began to say, `This generation is evil, a sign it doth seek after, and a sign shall not be given to it, except the sign of Jonah the prophet, for as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also shall the Son of Man be to this generation. Luke 11:27-30

The generation of evil natural man no faith . They walk by seeing is believing... out of sight out of mind

 

[Dino246]

"Catholic" does not mean "sign seeker" and any woman who interrupted Jesus could not have been "Catholic" as the organization didn't exist until several hundred years later.

The next time you allude to an event in Scripture, it might be a good idea to note at least the chapter.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Lying wonder as wonderful works we perform as in self edifying are reckoned as self righteous.... workers of inequity.

Lying wonders are counterfeit miracles from Satan. The days of signs, wonders, and miracles accompanying the Gospel are over.

But in the future Satan will work through the Beast (the Antichrist) and the False Prophet to dazzle the world with miracles (lying wonders). See 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13.

The miracles being reported today should be carefully checked out. If there are false doctrines and false practices associated with these miracles, they may not be from God.

 

[jb]

The days of signs, wonders, and miracles accompanying the Gospel are over.

But in the future Satan will work through the Beast (the Antichrist) and the False Prophet to dazzle the world with miracles (lying wonders). See 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13.
.

Acts 2v16-21,38,39 would certainly not agree with you, it clearly teaches that the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12v7-11) are available throughout the whole of the age of grace, right up until Christ’s Second Coming, especially in the days immediately preceding His Second Coming. And this is confirmed by Rev 11v3-6 which states that the Two Witnessses are doing mighty signs, wonders and miracles in responses to the lying signs and wonders done by Antichrist and the False Prrphet during the dark evil days of the Great Tribulation! 2Thess 2v1-12, Rev chapter 13 (all)

 

[7seasrekeyed]

A good example of those who seek after a sign as a lying wonder(lying source of faith) is given in Luke 11. with a woman typified as Catholic (sign seeker) hoping the kingdom of God s does come by what the eyes see therefore not "mixing faith" in what the eyes see . She weaseled her way into the conversation interrupted the point Jesus was making. Christ used it as way of teaches... we must walk by faith in respect to all things written in the law and the fathers (sola scriptura)

She had a false hope the corrupted flesh of the Son of man who said it cannot profit could profit and could be contributed to the queen of heaven

And it came to pass, in his saying these things, a certain woman having lifted up the voice out of the multitude, said to him, `Happy the womb that carried thee, and the paps that thou didst suck!'And he said, `Yea, rather, happy those hearing the word of God, and keeping [it]!'And the multitudes crowding together upon him, he began to say, `This generation is evil, a sign it doth seek after, and a sign shall not be given to it, except the sign of Jonah the prophet, for as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also shall the Son of Man be to this generation. Luke 11:27-30

The generation of evil natural man no faith . They walk by seeing is believing... out of sight out of mind

I would like to add that it is also helpful when a person actually UNDERSTANDS when they hear or read the word

it is also a very good thing not to add to scripture...Catholics, the kind you seem to be bashing, were not in existence during that period of history

further, the actual meaning of the word Catholic has been warped to the extent it goes unrecognized for its original usage with early Christians

it's not a dirty word and it's not in any translation of the Bible I am aware of

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Lying wonders are counterfeit miracles from Satan. The days of signs, wonders, and miracles accompanying the Gospel are over.

But in the future Satan will work through the Beast (the Antichrist) and the False Prophet to dazzle the world with miracles (lying wonders). See 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13.

The miracles being reported today should be carefully checked out. If there are false doctrines and false practices associated with these miracles, they may not be from God.

well have they all stopped or should we carefully check them out? you seem to suggest both

that there are false practices etc is true of both cessationists and unorthodox use of the gifts and people claiming to be 'apostles' and so called new revelations

cessationists err in their dogma of creating a God on paper

neither is biblical, although at times once can almost understand why a cessationist may be one when the antics of certain groups are published or seen

the truth is still out there though

 

[Nehemiah6]

well have they all stopped or should we carefully check them out? you seem to suggest both

As I emphasized, signs, wonders, and miracles associated with the Gospel were for the apostolic age. They have stopped.

But does God still do miracles as He sees fit? Absolutely.

However, charlatans who claim to have the sign gifts are numerous. They should be ignored, since they wish to make merchandise of the Gospel (and generally do so). The Benny Hinns of this world are false prophets and false teachers.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Acts 2v16-21,38,39 would certainly not agree with you, it clearly teaches that the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12v7-11) are available throughout the whole of the age of grace, right up until Christ’s Second Coming...

Since Paul already told us that prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge would cease, your above statement is false. Furthermore, the sign gifts were clearly identified by Paul as "the signs of an apostle". The apostles are long gone, and so are their sign gifts. As James tells us regarding healing, it is now the prayer of faith -- not miracle workers -- through which healing is accomplished. Furthermore, even Paul could not perform healings at a certain point, and prayed for the healing of Epaphroditus.

...especially in the days immediately preceding His Second Coming.

Now you are talking about Satanic signs, miracles, and lying wonders, which will definitely happen during the reign of the Antichrist. Those are counterfeit miracles.

And this is confirmed by Rev 11v3-6 which states that the Two Witnessses are doing mighty signs, wonders and miracles in responses to the lying signs and wonders done by Antichrist and the False Prrphet during the dark evil days of the Great Tribulation! 2Thess 2v1-12, Rev chapter 13 (all)

This is not during the Church Age but during the reign of the Antichrist. So once again you are clearly mistaken. [/QUOTE]

 

[7seasrekeyed]

As I emphasized, signs, wonders, and miracles associated with the Gospel were for the apostolic age. They have stopped.

But does God still do miracles as He sees fit? Absolutely.

However, charlatans who claim to have the sign gifts are numerous. They should be ignored, since they wish to make merchandise of the Gospel (and generally do so). The Benny Hinns of this world are false prophets and false teachers.

why mention Hinn?

even he doesn't believe in himself

I think I made myself clear in what I said

 

[BenFTW]

Since Paul already told us that prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge would cease, your above statement is false. Furthermore, the sign gifts were clearly identified by Paul as "the signs of an apostle". The apostles are long gone, and so are their sign gifts. As James tells us regarding healing, it is now the prayer of faith -- not miracle workers -- through which healing is accomplished. Furthermore, even Paul could not perform healings at a certain point, and prayed for the healing of Epaphroditus

Now you are talking about Satanic signs, miracles, and lying wonders, which will definitely happen during the reign of the Antichrist. Those are counterfeit miracles.


This is not during the Church Age but during the reign of the Antichrist. So once again you are clearly mistaken.

A couple things Nehemiah. Firstly, yes God's word says that they would cease, but that doesn't mean that have yet. Secondly, it is said they would cease when that which is perfect is come, which refers to Christ because the apostle Paul said that he would see "that which is perfect" face to face. He wasn't alive when the canon came to be, in its entirety. So it can't be in reference to scripture (NT). Thirdly, we have examples throughout scripture of people using these gifts that were not apostles, so they by no means are only "signs of an apostle." The people/believers of Corinth operated in these giftings, such as tongues for example.

Just some glaring issues with Cessationism.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Thirdly, we have examples throughout scripture of people using these gifts that were not apostles, so they by no means are only "signs of an apostle."

Stephen and Philip were the only ones who did miracles apart from the apostles. And they were already chosen to be among the seven deacons, and companions of the apostles (and upon whom the apostles laid their hands).

But in general the signs and wonders were the signs of apostles. The point to note is that the apostles are long gone, and the complete Bible (that which is complete = that which is perfect) is in out hands. You will also note that the Apostolic Fathers did not claim to have the sign gifts, and if anyone should have had them it would have been these men.

 

[jb]

Stephen and Philip were the only ones who did miracles apart from the apostles. And they were already chosen to be among the seven deacons, and companions of the apostles (and upon whom the apostles laid their hands).

But in general the signs and wonders were the signs of apostles. The point to note is that the apostles are long gone, and the complete Bible (that which is complete = that which is perfect) is in out hands. You will also note that the Apostolic Fathers did not claim to have the sign gifts, and if anyone should have had them it would have been these men.

You have totally and completely twisted a Scripture out of context, nowhere in 1Cor 13 is the canon of Scripture mentioned and nowhere in Scripture is the canon of Scripture referred to as "that which is perfect!"

As already mentioned, "that which is perfect has come" is a reference to the Millennium, the Kingdom of God, which is set up at Christ's Second Coming, when we see Jesus face to face and will fully know even as we are fully known!

Those who insist that spiritual gifts and spiritual ministries have ceased and are not for today, must, if they are to be consistent, insist that God has removed them all, and not just some of them. If they really believe that spiritual gifts are not for today, how is it that they pray for Divine healing? For this is a gift of healing. How is it that they pray for illumination upon a problem, or guidance from God? For this is a word of wisdom. How is it that they pray for ministers of the Gospel to receive the Holy Spirit's anointing? and for Satan's power to be lifted off people? and for people to be blessed? For these are the operations of the gift of faith. How is it that they pray for material needs to be met? For this is the province of the working of miracles. How is it that they pray for a revelation of God to the soul? For this is a discerning of spirits. How is it that they pray for an inspired utterance from God to help others? For this is the realm of prophecy. How is it that they pray for the Holy Spirit to inspire them in prayer? and then reject the gift of tongues, which is the Divine answer to this request. It is a fact that Christians who say that spiritual gifts have ceased to operate in the Church, actually pray for their manifestation. Those who reject spiritual gifts completely, have in reality tried to remove God's influence from His Church, and put it in the hands of men. We must accept that God has decreed that we need these gifts, and not frustrate the wise and loving reasons for their manifestation.

Like the Israelites of old and Pharisees in Christ's day, by your unbelief you limit the Holy One of Israel! Psalm 78v41, Mark 3v28-30.

 

[Dino246]

...But in general the signs and wonders were the signs of apostles. The point to note is that the apostles are long gone, and the complete Bible (that which is complete = that which is perfect) is in out hands..

To the bolded portion: false equivocation. While the two concepts are somewhat related, they are not synonymous. A written exam may be complete, but not perfect. A construction project may be perfect, but not complete.

I know that you believe 1 Corinthians 13:8 to refer to the canon of Scripture, but that is certainly not the only way to interpret it. It's unfortunate that Paul was not more clear on the matter.

 

[Nehemiah6]

To the bolded portion: false equivocation. While the two concepts are somewhat related, they are not synonymous. A written exam may be complete, but not perfect. A construction project may be perfect, but not complete.

But when that which is perfect* is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1 Cor 13:10 KJB)

Strong's Concordance
*teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

I rest my case.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You have totally and completely twisted a Scripture out of context, nowhere in 1Cor 13 is the canon of Scripture mentioned and nowhere in Scripture is the canon of Scripture referred to as "that which is perfect!"

You may not believe it, but many Christians believe that it is Scripture that Paul is referring to and the Greek word teleios means complete, therefore perfect (see my post above). Please note that prophesies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge are all related to divine revelations, and after the written Word of God was completed, these gifts were not required. Indeed John made it crystal clear that Revelation was the final book of prophecy and the final book of the Bible.

So there is no twisting of Scripture out of context [unless you don't believe that the Bible is perfect and complete (a Mormon belief hence the book of Mormon = Scripture)].

 

[garee]

A couple things Nehemiah. Firstly, yes God's word says that they would cease, but that doesn't mean that have yet. Secondly, it is said they would cease when that which is perfect is come, which refers to Christ because the apostle Paul said that he would see "that which is perfect" face to face. He wasn't alive when the canon came to be, in its entirety. So it can't be in reference to scripture (NT). Thirdly, we have examples throughout scripture of people using these gifts that were not apostles, so they by no means are only "signs of an apostle." The people/believers of Corinth operated in these giftings, such as tongues for example.

Just some glaring issues with Cessationism.

We walk by faith not by sight .Not outward sign gift to confirm the Holy Spirit is working to fill us.

God who is supernatural, without nature as a beginning is not a man as us, He has no face or flesh to behold like us. Seeking his face is to seek after His grace.

There has been no new prophecy (God's Word) as tongues in the manner of all languages as of John on the isle of Patmos .What we had in part up until them we now have the whole or perfect …. with a warning in the end not to add or substract from the now perfect living abiding Word

Why go above that which is written?

The Son of man already came (the veil is rent) and He performed a one time outward demonstration of the unseen work of Holy Spirit of God . Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God came when the Son of man had disappeared out of sight .

John 16:7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you

As new creatures awaiting our new incorruptible bodies in the new heavens and earth. Today He lives inside of our earthen bodies of death

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[garee]

"Catholic" does not mean "sign seeker" and any woman who interrupted Jesus could not have been "Catholic" as the organization didn't exist until several hundred years later.

The next time you allude to an event in Scripture, it might be a good idea to note at least the chapter.

I did say typified as a Catholic . They provide a perfect and in complete picture of another gospel another Christ. They are the queen of sign seeks as a lying wonder false gospel . They would say they were there during the first century...... making Peter the denier the visible head of the church. Just as in the same exact way the apostate Jew made the flesh of Abraham the visible head of the church .

Eulogizing or venerating the outward flesh of what they call Mary rather than all things written in the law and the prophets(sola scriptural ) is the nature as the foundation of the Catholic sect .

Making her queen of heaven is something that Catholic concludes as a "law of the fathers" (oral traditions of men) making the word of God without effect , Identical to the apostate Jew in whom the sign of God bringing new prophecy in other tongues other that Hebrew alone was used to mock them who mocked god by not abiding in his word the final authority of God not seen

 

[garee]

Lying wonders are counterfeit miracles from Satan. The days of signs, wonders, and miracles accompanying the Gospel are over.

But in the future Satan will work through the Beast (the Antichrist) and the False Prophet to dazzle the world with miracles (lying wonders). See 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13.

The miracles being reported today should be carefully checked out. If there are false doctrines and false practices associated with these miracles, they may not be from God.

Satan as the spirit of the antichrist (singular)as another Christ who influences men as antichrist (plural) was there in the first century working in the hearts of men used to blaspheme the Holy name of God by which we are called heavenward .

I think he would enjoy some believing we have to wait for him before he can display his signs as lying wonders . With wonders representing a source of faith and in that case a lying source that goes above all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) we have the perfect or whole, as the complete word of God.

 

[Noose]

A couple things Nehemiah. Firstly, yes God's word says that they would cease, but that doesn't mean that have yet. Secondly, it is said they would cease when that which is perfect is come, which refers to Christ because the apostle Paul said that he would see "that which is perfect" face to face. He wasn't alive when the canon came to be, in its entirety. So it can't be in reference to scripture (NT). Thirdly, we have examples throughout scripture of people using these gifts that were not apostles, so they by no means are only "signs of an apostle." The people/believers of Corinth operated in these giftings, such as tongues for example.

Just some glaring issues with Cessationism.

Apostolic age doesn't necessarily mean apostles- Go to Daniel, he has a timeline for you of what happens when.