I think it's not biblical, see Ecc. 7:29, Eze. 18:20 and Rom. 7:9. God bless
Your thoughts on original sin?
- Thread starter LW97
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Hey! LW97... PTL!
imo: There is no original sin per se; but there are two consequences passed down to us because of Adam's disobedience. First, in Rom 15:16 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Because of Adam's transgression, death as a consequence of sin, comes to us all; making my death a consequence of my sin and your death a consequence of your sin. Second, in Gen 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." The Hebrew here, has the idea that, "in the day," in dying thou shalt surely die. The instant Adam ate, he died spiritually as the Spirit of God removed himself from his spirit and his natural body began to grow old unto death. Now, we're born without the Spirit of God within; making our birth natures to be a carnal nature, separate from God, because of Adam's sin.
Maranatha!
imo: There is no original sin per se; but there are two consequences passed down to us because of Adam's disobedience. First, in Rom 15:16 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Because of Adam's transgression, death as a consequence of sin, comes to us all; making my death a consequence of my sin and your death a consequence of your sin. Second, in Gen 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." The Hebrew here, has the idea that, "in the day," in dying thou shalt surely die. The instant Adam ate, he died spiritually as the Spirit of God removed himself from his spirit and his natural body began to grow old unto death. Now, we're born without the Spirit of God within; making our birth natures to be a carnal nature, separate from God, because of Adam's sin.
Maranatha!
The phrase, "original sin" is not in Scripture, but neither is "trinity". I trust you're addressing the concept, not the exact phrase.
Taking three verses by themselves and declaring a belief based on them looks a lot like proof-texting. It's better to look at all the passages that touch on a topic before drawing a conclusion.
For example, look at Romans 3:10, 3:23 and 5:12, and 1 Cor 15:22. There are many more.
The phrase "original sin" was coined by the Catholics for the purpose of making God into a man as us so that they could venerate flesh of men as what scripture defines as a daysman (Pope) as a visible head, as if the kingdom of God came by observation, as in out of sight out of mind. a Pagan foundation. (no faith of Christ )
Christians as new creatures walk faith the unseen a living abiding hope working in us.. looking ahead to the fulfillment of the promise of our new incorruptible bodies . For who hopes for that which is seen ?
Christians as new creatures walk faith the unseen a living abiding hope working in us.. looking ahead to the fulfillment of the promise of our new incorruptible bodies . For who hopes for that which is seen ?
It depends how the concept is explained but look at it this way; Adam and Eve feeling ashamed of their nakedness was one of the consequences of sin and us (today) feeling ashamed of our nakedness shows that there's a bond that has not been broken and more importantly that sin affects our consciousness which we all inherit from Adam.
Exactly! Its so common betwen Christians to base whole systems or rejecting other systems just based on few verses. We all probably do it sometimes.
Almost any doctrine can be proved by few verses, Bible has 1,000 pages, is written in ancient languages and has frequently complicated contexts (culturaly, grammaticaly).
I think there is no support (neither biblical nor moral nor natural) for us being punished for our parents' sin.
There is a consequence of bad behaviour (if our parents were in jail, our childhood would be bad etc), but thats not a punishment for sins. Its just causality.
And in this sense I think the concept of original sin can be viewed - as a causality. We are being born into a fallen world.
There is a consequence of bad behaviour (if our parents were in jail, our childhood would be bad etc), but thats not a punishment for sins. Its just causality.
And in this sense I think the concept of original sin can be viewed - as a causality. We are being born into a fallen world.
Hi LW97, there is no more common characteristic that defines the human race, nothing that is more pervasive among all of us than sin is. You know it, I know it, for that matter, everybody knows it, right
As a result, our most common saying is, "nobody's perfect"! Now, a universal effect always has a common cause, the question is, who/what made us all this way?
It certainly could have been God, but if He "made" us this way from the get-go, IOW, caused us to be the sinners that we all are, then how could He possibly hold us accountable for sinning? (just to be clear, the Bible tells us that He didn't, that He made us "upright" and in "His [perfect] image" instead .. cf Genesis 1:26-27; Ecclesiastes 7:29)
The doctrine of Original Sin puts the blame for this, for the fall of mankind into sin, right where I believe it belongs, on the shoulders of our first parents, whose 'tarnished' image we, as their progeny, are all begotten in (rather than in God's perfect image which they were both originally created in).
Those are some of my thoughts anyway, and here are some of the Bible's.
..........Psalm 51
..........5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
..........Romans 3
..........9 Both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
..........10 as it is written,
..........“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
..........11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
..........THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
..........12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
..........THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
..........THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
..........23 All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
..........Ephesians 2
..........1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
..........2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power
..........of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
..........3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and
..........of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
~Deut
what do we get when we put these together with Romans 5:12, and with the reason that was Jesus born of a virgin?
was the virgin birth unnecessary?
could Abel have gone into Eden and eaten from the tree of life ((why is the way kept shut for everyone, not just Adam & Eve))?
"Original sin" is explained in Romans 5:12. Adam's sin caused death (both spiritual and physical) to pass to all of his offspring, who are all born spiritually dead. Spiritually dead people cannot perfectly do the will of GOD, so at some point they will all sin.
The ending phrase that is typically translated "because all sinned" is εφ΄ (upon) ω (which) πάντες (all) ήμαρτον (sin). IMO it is identifying the cause of mans' sin - all men sin because they are dead) - and not stating that all men die because they sinned.
Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man and death through [that] sin, so also death spread to all people, upon which all sin. Romans 5:12
The ending phrase that is typically translated "because all sinned" is εφ΄ (upon) ω (which) πάντες (all) ήμαρτον (sin). IMO it is identifying the cause of mans' sin - all men sin because they are dead) - and not stating that all men die because they sinned.
Good and fair question, if no OS then why sin? Or why does it happen, if I may ask. Seems the OS thing has been beat to death and lost any real knowledgeable value to the believer. IMO understanding the sin deal is very important for the believer to understand, where what when how it came about simply because it gives them the key to understand the where how what when the new nature comes about.
NayborBear
Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Hi LW97, there is no more common characteristic that defines the human race, nothing that is more pervasive among all of us than sin is. You know it, I know it, for that matter, everybody knows it, right
Now, a universal effect always has a common cause, the question is, who/what made us all this way?
It certainly could have been God, but if He "made" us this way from the get-go, IOW, caused us to be the sinners that we all are, then how could He possibly hold us accountable for sinning? (just to be clear, the Bible tells us that He didn't, that He made us "upright" and in "His [perfect] image" instead .. cf Genesis 1:26-27; Ecclesiastes 7:29)
The doctrine of Original Sin puts the blame for this, for the fall of mankind into sin, right where I believe it belongs, on the shoulders of our first parents, whose 'tarnished' image we, as their progeny, are all begotten in (rather than in God's perfect image which they were both originally created in).
Those are some of my thoughts anyway, and here are some of the Bible's.
..........Psalm 51
..........5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
..........Romans 3
..........9 Both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
..........10 as it is written,
..........“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
..........11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
..........THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
..........12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
..........THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
..........THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
..........23 All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
..........Ephesians 2
..........1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
..........2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power
..........of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
..........3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and
..........of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
~Deut
When I was reading your post, but more specifically, those verses in Ephesians, "a thought", or "epiphany" "rolled me over" so to speak. Seeings how this thread is addressing concepts?
In the "garden of Eden" incident? When Eve was "WHOLLY Seduced" by the serpent? This "act of seduction", opened the door, or created a bridge, where ALL the 1/3rd of the "stars of heaven/angels/nephillium/katabol" "crossed over", or entered, into Eve, and then, Adam, that up UNTIL that time, were "held back" by the Power Of God, or? the Power of God's love, FOR His children! And, this "door, or bridge" has not been shut SINCE! Oh! Sure, sure! SOME of their more horrendous acts, have been "curtailed" as far as "the giants", and other "physical" abnormalities, with "Noah's Flood", by the "prince of the covenant." Yet, that door, or bridge, wasn't shut!
Which gave me cause to wonder, concerning "judging angels", as is taught us in the N.T. THESE, are those "angels!" That, although, have been judged already...BY God! Have NOT been "judged" by His "Children!" Take heed therefore, that when these, who been judged by God, and NOT judged by man? Things ONLY get worse!
So we're all born caterpillars and only a few of us turn into butterflies.
R
renewed_hope
Guest
Um actually I do believe in generational curses thus being punishment. The only way to avoid this is if a parent becomes saved (they become a new creation) or they ask for forgiveness or if you yourself break them and their stronghold in your life. They come in forms of addiction, repeating abuse, abandoning your loved ones, and so many others. I don't think they do come in forms of disease like one person stated in their post.
Yes but the word "original" gives rise to possibility another as in non- original. Two kinds of sin . Two kinds of wages to represent sin .
What the Catholic must call mortal and venial . dividing the one wage.... with one they can work for in a place called purgatory, as a law of their fathers (a law of men)
And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Son of man, what mean ye by this parable among the children of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten unripe grapes, and the children’s teeth have been set on edge?
As I live, saith the Lord, surely this parable shall no more be spoken in Israel.
But the soul that sins shall die: and the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, nor shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the iniquity of the transgressor shall be upon him.
Ez 18
Sin is a spirit, the spirit of lie that indwells men and it's manifestation through the word of mouth and flesh is what we often call sin also- like adultery/idolatry/stealing - But the actual sin (spirit) is death. A newborn baby dies not because the sin (spirit) manifested through their flesh or tongue but because sin (spirit) has entered the world and that child is part of the world that sin has corrupted.
So there's 2 kinds of sin
I would think anything that is not of the faith of Christ, as it is written is sin . To transgress against what some call the least of the law a person is held responsible and found guilty for the whole .
Personally reject the concept of an inherited original sin, which would label us all as sinners at birth. Which is wholly inaccurate compared to scripture. Sin is not an inherited trait passed through generations through the bloodline of our fathers and their fathers before them. Sin has a very clear and concise definition:
"Whoever sins also transgresses the Law, because sin is the transgression of the Law." -1 John 3:4
Birth does not define one as a "sinner".
Breaking the Law of G-D, that is the eternal, holy, and perfect Commandments given by G-D, that makes a sinner. Sin makes you a sinner. Not a bloodline.
"Whoever sins also transgresses the Law, because sin is the transgression of the Law." -1 John 3:4
Birth does not define one as a "sinner".
Breaking the Law of G-D, that is the eternal, holy, and perfect Commandments given by G-D, that makes a sinner. Sin makes you a sinner. Not a bloodline.