You must be born "anothen" - was Jesus speaking in Greek?

[trofimus]

There is a known passage in the Bible, we are all familiar with:

"Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above (anothen), he is not able to see the kingdom of God."
J 3:3

The Greek word "anothen" is ambiguous. It can mean either "from above" or "for the second time".
Nicodemus understood it wrongly in the sense that he is supposed to go back to his mother's womb and basically to be born again, for the second time. Jesus then explains that the first meaning was the right one, that he must be born from of the Spirit (i.e. from above, spiritually).

The problem is, that this is possible only in Greek. Aramaic does not postulate this ambiguity. Was Jesus speaking in Greek here, then?

Source is Bart Ehrman (yeah, I know, I know, but still, if its so, the question is valid).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't think that ambiguity had anything to do with it. Nicodemus was carnal, so he could only see what Jesus said from an earthly perspective.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Jesus also spoke with a Roman centurion. Very doubtful IMO that an uneducated soldier spoke Aramaic.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Something that makes me think Jesus spoke Greek was when he read the prophecy of Isaiah from a scroll in Nazareth. The common people of his day (and earlier, possibly all the way back to Ezra) did not know Hebrew. For that reason targumists (interpreters) were used to translate Hebrew into (usually) Aramaic. Someone would read one verse aloud in Hebrew (or 3 verses from the prophets), and then a targumist would interpret in Aramaic for the congregation. Oftentimes the targumist would incorporate rabbinical tradition into the translation.

But notice in Luke 4:16-27 that no targumist is used. Jesus read from the scroll, and then sat down and taught on what he read. That makes me think that possibly he was reading from the Greek Septuagint (instead of a scroll written in Hebrew), and the congregation understood the prophecy he was reading.

 

[rlm68]

Clearly Nicodemus thought it meant to be born a second time. This is why the reference to being born from the mother again. And since we know we are to be born again (in the Spirit), it is rather clear it does mean a "second time."

I don't see any confusion about which word and definition is meant here since we understand Nicodemus reaction. And of course, we have Christ explaining in the next verses to be born of the Spirit. We can gather from that He meant "a second time."

 

[Nehemiah6]

The problem is, that this is possible only in Greek. Aramaic does not postulate this ambiguity. Was Jesus speaking in Greek here, then?

No. But the Holy Spirit was giving John the words in Greek. That is how simple it is. And the KJV could have translated it as "born from above" which is the same as "born again".

Strong's Concordance
anóthen: from above
Original Word: ἄνωθεν
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: anóthen
Phonetic Spelling: (an'-o-then)
Short Definition: from above, from the beginning, again
Definition: (a) from above, from heaven, (b) from the beginning, from their origin (source), from of old, (c) again, anew.

 

[rlm68]

No. But the Holy Spirit was giving John the words in Greek. That is how simple it is. And the KJV could have translated it as "born from above" which is the same as "born again".

Strong's Concordance
anóthen: from above
Original Word: ἄνωθεν
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: anóthen
Phonetic Spelling: (an'-o-then)
Short Definition: from above, from the beginning, again
Definition: (a) from above, from heaven, (b) from the beginning, from their origin (source), from of old, (c) again, anew.

You think the Holy Spirit gave another word to John that could bare two separate meanings from what Christ said?

Interesting.

This is confusion, and here I thought God was not about confusion.



Maybe, it's how the text of John was interpreted to begin with. How it was translated after John's original text.

Kind of like Isaiah is a Book of Hebrew words. And it was written some 1,500 years before people spoke Latin. but within the Hebrew Book of Isaiah, we have a Latin word that did not even exists yet when Isaiah wrote his Book. That Latin word obviously is Lucifer. and we know Rome spoke Latin. So it is clear, Rome added a word to the Hebrew text of Isaiah.

Maybe the same happened with John.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Every other time John used ἄνωθεν he meant from above (John 3:31; 19:11, 23).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The Greek word "anothen" is ambiguous. It can mean either "from above" or "for the second time".

I don't see "for the second time" in ἄνωθεν. I see from the first (or top).

 

[Nehemiah6]

This is confusion, and here I thought God was not about confusion.

Why is there confusion?

BORN AGAIN = BORN FROM ABOVE = BORN OF GOD = BORN OF THE SPIRIT = REGENERATION

All of these terms are found in Scripture.

 

[rlm68]

Why is there confusion?

BORN AGAIN = BORN FROM ABOVE = BORN OF GOD = BORN OF THE SPIRIT = REGENERATION

All of these terms are found in Scripture.

My Bad, you are correct on no confusion!!

I was thinking opposite meanings for some foolish reason.

 

[LPT]

Surely this guy was born from above, Melchizedek

 

[p_rehbein]

John 3: 1)
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2) The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9) Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10) Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


Pretty clear what Jesus is saying........we die in Christ and we are risen in Christ....

Yes, spiritual rebirth is our heavenly rebirth, for it is our eternal spirit that will reign with Him

 

[trofimus]

Maybe I confused you with "second time", "again" is probably more appropriate in English.

You must be born from above vs You must be born again.

 

[CS1]

There is a known passage in the Bible, we are all familiar with:

"Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above (anothen), he is not able to see the kingdom of God."
J 3:3

The Greek word "anothen" is ambiguous. It can mean either "from above" or "for the second time".
Nicodemus understood it wrongly in the sense that he is supposed to go back to his mother's womb and basically to be born again, for the second time. Jesus then explains that the first meaning was the right one, that he must be born from of the Spirit (i.e. from above, spiritually).

The problem is, that this is possible only in Greek. Aramaic does not postulate this ambiguity. Was Jesus speaking in Greek here, then?

Source is Bart Ehrman (yeah, I know, I know, but still, if its so, the question is valid).

there was not a language Jesus did not know. This evident by the OVER whelming Witnesses who marveled as HIS what? WORDS. this was recorded in the gospels as Jesus spoke to Jews , Samaritans, greeks , romans, Jesus traveled and every where HE went HE spoke . The Gospel of John says they could not record all Jesus had done .

 

[trofimus]

there was not a language Jesus did not know. This evident by the OVER whelming Witnesses who marveled as HIS what? WORDS. this was recorded in the gospels as Jesus spoke to Jews , Samaritans, greeks , romans, Jesus traveled and every where HE went HE spoke . The Gospel of John says they could not record all Jesus had done .

Nothing agains that, Jesus could be just a polyglot or His divine nature gave him abilities to speak many languages without learning.

The point of my OP is whether Jesus spoke Greek on daily basis even with Jews, i.e. whether gospels are not translations from Aramaic to Greek, but (at least for the most part) just a record of His true words.

Or, said in another way, why would Jesus talk with Nicodemus in Greek?

 

[CS1]

Nothing agains that, Jesus could be just a polyglot or His divine nature gave him abilities to speak many languages without learning.

The point of my OP is whether Jesus spoke Greek on daily basis even with Jews, i.e. whether gospels are not translations from Aramaic to Greek, but (at least for the most part) just a record of His true words.

Or, said in another way, why would Jesus talk with Nicodemus in Greek?

is that not a presupposition ? because the writers wrote the Gospels in Greek? The New testament that is . and why did they write in Greek it is clear Greek scribes were well established if not we would not have the Septuagint Old Testament in Greek

 

[Laish]

Jesus also spoke with a Roman centurion. Very doubtful IMO that an uneducated soldier spoke Aramaic.

Roman centurions were low level officers . The were educated. They had to read write multiple languages at least two languages Greek and Latin. That was to just to communicate with Rome . Other languages would also need to be known to talk to the rank in file soldier . They were charged with at least 100 legionaries . They were not uneducated.
Blessings
Bill

 

[trofimus]

No. But the Holy Spirit was giving John the words in Greek. That is how simple it is. And the KJV could have translated it as "born from above" which is the same as "born again".

Strong's Concordance
anóthen: from above
Original Word: ἄνωθεν
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: anóthen
Phonetic Spelling: (an'-o-then)
Short Definition: from above, from the beginning, again
Definition: (a) from above, from heaven, (b) from the beginning, from their origin (source), from of old, (c) again, anew.

In aramaic there is no ambiguity with the word , only in Greek. So the story could not happen in the way it happened, in such a case (i.e. if aramaic language was used).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Roman centurions were low level officers . The were educated. They had to read write multiple languages at least two languages Greek and Latin. That was to just to communicate with Rome . Other languages would also need to be known to talk to the rank in file soldier . They were charged with at least 100 legionaries . They were not uneducated.
Blessings
Bill

This doesn't make sense. Greek was the lingua franca of the day. It's more likely that non-Roman soldiers spoke Greek, and the Roman ones spoke Latin. So a centurion would only realistically need to speak two languages.