Speaking in tongues

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Tongues of the Holy Spirit were known of the speaker and able to be translated by others so all in the assembly would receive edification.
If the language (tongue) is known to the speaker, it is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. If the translation is provided by another person who knows the language already, it is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

Pagan tongues involved repeating the same phrase over and over again very rapidly to create a desired sound effect. No one understood and of course no one was edified except the speaker. In the case of the pagans the edification of the speaker was the preeminence they received over the other people.
You are taking one line of Scripture and asserting universal truths based on it. You are also wrongly ascribing to the pagans your uninformed opinion regarding edification involving tongues. Find a single Scripture where it says that pagans are "edified" by anything.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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True yet we cannot escape the fact that pagans spoke in unknown tongues. Those tongues were not of the Holy Spirit. Tongues of the Holy Spirit were known of the speaker
That is not true. When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying.
1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

and able to be translated by others so all in the assembly would receive edification.
That is not true. When a person speaks in tongues, that person is to be the one to interpret.
1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

When tongues are spoken in public, if the person speaking does not interpret, nobody except God will know what has been said.

Pagan tongues involved repeating the same phrase over and over again very rapidly to create a desired sound effect. No one understood and of course no one was edified except the speaker. In the case of the pagans the edification of the speaker was the preeminence they received over the other people.
You seem to know a lot about pagan tongues, Roger, but nothing about the manifestation of speaking in tongues. The Bible clearly states that when a person speaks in tongues, he is edified.
1 Cor 14:
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Also, when he speaks in tongues aloud in the church and interprets, the church is edified.
1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

All that is in great contrast to the gifts of tongues in the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit tongues proclaimed Christ and glorified Christ not men.
They still do.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,067
4,349
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True yet we cannot escape the fact that pagans spoke in unknown tongues. Those tongues were not of the Holy Spirit. Tongues of the Holy Spirit were known of the speaker and able to be translated by others so all in the assembly would receive edification.

Pagan tongues involved repeating the same phrase over and over again very rapidly to create a desired sound effect. No one understood and of course no one was edified except the speaker. In the case of the pagans the edification of the speaker was the preeminence they received over the other people.

All that is in great contrast to the gifts of tongues in the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit tongues proclaimed Christ and glorified Christ not men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
page did not speak in unknown tongues in context to 1cor 12-14 and Acts or Mark 16 which Jesus said would happen Christians did . and That is where the gift comes from the Holy Spirit not a page belief system . Christian use the Bible to formulate Biblical application , not false teachings to disprove Biblical truths . That is error .
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,067
4,349
113
True yet we cannot escape the fact that pagans spoke in unknown tongues. Those tongues were not of the Holy Spirit. Tongues of the Holy Spirit were known of the speaker and able to be translated by others so all in the assembly would receive edification.

Pagan tongues involved repeating the same phrase over and over again very rapidly to create a desired sound effect. No one understood and of course no one was edified except the speaker. In the case of the pagans the edification of the speaker was the preeminence they received over the other people.

All that is in great contrast to the gifts of tongues in the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit tongues proclaimed Christ and glorified Christ not men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
you know more about what pages do then what the Gift's of the Holy Spirit are for in 1cor 12 to 14. Tongues is not repeating the same phrase over and over LOl the end result of the gift is what is to be judged . I guess you did not read that in chapter 14 of 1cor ? People saved, healed and delivered in the name of Jesus FYI bring all glory to God who did it.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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Not sure what you are trying to say with all that verbosity. But I think I get the jist. Lemme counter with this:

I had an acquaintance years ago who we'll call 'Bob', friend of a friend kind of thing. I didn't know much about him but I knew he was mad at God. He and his girlfriend had been considering becoming Christians, but before they could decide she died. Bob was angry that, if there was a God, He would take her before she had made a decision.

So one night I'm alone praying and my prayers come to Bob. So I pray in English, Lord, I lift up Bob, and his anger and yadayadayada everything I know to pray about Bob, in English.

But then, my mind and heart stay on Bob, but I start praying in my tongue. And while I'm doing that I get this vision of these legions of angels rushing into a cave or tunnel ... One after another after another after another ... flying into this cave.

The next time I talked to Bob, I told him about this vision. He got silent, then said his girlfriend had died in a car wreck under a freeway bridge. I said maybe he shouldn't be so sure she hadn't decided.

And while I only talked to him once after that, I'm pretty sure he took that message to heart.

Pray in your understanding.

Pray in the Spirit, and receive understanding.

Intercede directly with something you have no earthly knowledge of

Be edified by the humble use of yourself to edify another.

*

So, if I read your long rambling missive correctly, you think I am deceived.

Yes you are probably right. Because we all know that deceiving spirits love to intercede on the behalf of lost people and bring them closer to God!

lying wonders as that which produces things that have no earthly knowledge are a false source of faith (not as it is written)

Experience or dream interpretations are not a source of faith anymore than the sign of tongues tongue (a sign that confirms not work of the Holy Spirit or falling back slain in the spirit another sign that confirms a person is being deceived by the god of this world .Its not so much a salvation issue but more how can we hear the doctrines of God, not seen and not those of men, seen .

Jesus in Mathew 4 experienced what some might call an out of the body experience. Three times with three denoting the end of a matter he said; as it is written, informing us to the one manner of faith by which we can beleive God . Showing Jesus all the kingdoms of the world without moving one inch. The father of lies brining in his lying wonders .

Out of the body experiences as a source of faith as well a dream interpretation is on the rise.

Why go above that which is written?

God is no longer adding to His word (prophecy ) as of the last book Revelation.

Satan continues to bring his signs as lying wonders.

God continues to send a strong delusion so that man can beleive the lie .

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2 thessialonians 2:9-11
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
True yet we cannot escape the fact that pagans spoke in unknown tongues. Those tongues were not of the Holy Spirit. Tongues of the Holy Spirit were known of the speaker and able to be translated by others so all in the assembly would receive edification.

Pagan tongues involved repeating the same phrase over and over again very rapidly to create a desired sound effect. No one understood and of course no one was edified except the speaker. In the case of the pagans the edification of the speaker was the preeminence they received over the other people.

All that is in great contrast to the gifts of tongues in the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit tongues proclaimed Christ and glorified Christ not men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It reminds me of Catholicism. Chanting in a dead language (latin ) in a hope God will hear them because of their vain repetition.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
Tongues of the Holy Spirit were known of the speaker and able to be translated by others so all in the assembly would receive edification.

If the language (tongue) is known to the speaker, it is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. If the translation is provided by another person who knows the language already, it is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
They are both manifestation of one Spirit, the Holy Spirit of God

Tongues God brining new prophecy in other languages other than Hebrew alone is a sign that confirms the unbelieving Jew does not have the Holy Spirit . The father of lies the counterfeiter as business as usual turns it upside down as if God had not understanding to offer, and seduces men to believe it is a sin that a person id being filled by the Spirit

Isaiah 29:16Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

The hearing of the gospel is a two way street. It takes communication as a understanding on both parts.

The language of God is know to the speaker God translates it into the language of the hearer, and when the hearer speaks in his know language God translates it into the ears of the new hearer.

There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. 1 Corinthians 14:10-11

I imagine offering the gospel by making a noise without meaning and the other person answers back making a noise .How would they ever confirm God is applying the gospel ?

Today they electronic devices by which two people who speak another tongue can under the scriptures.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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you know more about what pages do then what the Gift's of the Holy Spirit are for in 1cor 12 to 14. Tongues is not repeating the same phrase over and over LOl the end result of the gift is what is to be judged . I guess you did not read that in chapter 14 of 1cor ? People saved, healed and delivered in the name of Jesus FYI bring all glory to God who did it.
I did not say that tongues were repeating the same thing over and over again. I specifically said that was not tongues. The end does not justify the means. Never has and never will. You love to mix subject material and create confusion to mask the lack of merit in your reply.

Paul in writing to the Corinthians was not able to give his usual evangelistic message because their gatherings were such a mess. Paul rejoiced to teach the gospel message to all the churches and encourage them to reach lost souls with the gospel. Sadly he invests most of his effort in Corinthians correcting errors.

You really need to read 1 Corinthians 12-14 without bias and see what it really teaches. You have a behavior in search of scriptural support.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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page did not speak in unknown tongues in context to 1cor 12-14 and Acts or Mark 16 which Jesus said would happen Christians did . and That is where the gift comes from the Holy Spirit not a page belief system . Christian use the Bible to formulate Biblical application , not false teachings to disprove Biblical truths . That is error .
You have a behavior in search of biblical support. If you did as you say, use the bible to formulate biblical application, then you would much better off.

I have not said that biblical tongues come from a pagan belief system that is your false alligation. Allow the scripture to determine the context and not current behavior. The creation of extrabiblical speculation to justify behavior cannot lead to biblical truth.

Worship must glorify God. Worship must have at its center Christ. We worship Christ through what is written on the pages of our bibles. The Holy Spirit guides us into worship through the scriptures and all are edified. God is glorified by the preaching of His word. Souls are saved by the preaching of His word.

Tongues are not worship.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
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Tongues are not worship.
Speaking in tongues is speaking the wonderful works of God (Acts 2:11), it is magnifying God (Acts 10:46), it is giving thanks well (1 Cor 14:17), it is speaking to God divine secrets (1 Cor 14:2).

All of those things are worship.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
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Speaking in tongues is speaking the wonderful works of God (Acts 2:11), it is magnifying God (Acts 10:46), it is giving thanks well (1 Cor 14:17), it is speaking to God divine secrets (1 Cor 14:2).

All of those things are worship.

Yes the wonderful works of God (not men) God prophesying in all the lanuages of the world not just Hebrew as prior to Pentecost.

When men attributed the wonderworks of God to men it is a sign of blasphemy against them.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mathew 7

It would seem rather than the highest gift is speaking to God divine secrets. The highest gift you can wish for is to be able to speak the messages of God, the gospel.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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Speaking in tongues is speaking the wonderful works of God (Acts 2:11), it is magnifying God (Acts 10:46), it is giving thanks well (1 Cor 14:17), it is speaking to God divine secrets (1 Cor 14:2).

All of those things are worship.
Acts is testimony to the presence of the Holy Spirit as a sign to the Jews present. A sign confirming that souls were being saved in the name of Jesus Christ crucified by the Jews.

You misinterpret 1 Cor 14. the speaker knows what he is speaking the audience does not unless someone interpret for the benefit of those present.

We who are saved have received the Spirit of adoption and now call God Abba Father. We do not have the spirit of bondage which separates us from our Father. We speak openly and freely with our Father. The veil of separation between us is torn in twain. Secrets are not made plain. We no longer see through the glass darkly but as face to face.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
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That is not true. When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying.
1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


That is not true. When a person speaks in tongues, that person is to be the one to interpret.
1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

When tongues are spoken in public, if the person speaking does not interpret, nobody except God will know what has been said.


You seem to know a lot about pagan tongues, Roger, but nothing about the manifestation of speaking in tongues. The Bible clearly states that when a person speaks in tongues, he is edified.
1 Cor 14:
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Also, when he speaks in tongues aloud in the church and interprets, the church is edified.
1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


They still do.
The word unknow was added in all of chapter 14 .It changes the sense of the passages it is used in.

In that way it violates the warning in Deuteronomy 4 not to add to a word another meaning.... it can change the one authors intent.
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
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In reading many of these posts, and no disrespect intended, but it just astounds me how much 1 Cor. 14:2 is “reinterpreted” to fit the modern tongues experience.

There just isn’t anything in that passage that even remotely suggests the speaker does not understand what he’s saying.

“For one who speaks in a language, speaks not to men, but to God; no one understands…..”

I mean, one needs to use a bit of common sense here and infer from context. One also needs to keep in mind Paul’s focus throughout on the ‘hearers’ of these languages. The demographic situation in Corinth at that time must also be taken into consideration as it also plays a role in the understanding of these passages.

Historical context seems to be often left out of many interpretations of Biblical texts. In this case, I think that because historical context is rarely given any consideration, one of the main points of the passage is completely missed; for Paul, this appears to be clarity and understanding at a public worship so that all may benefit. This, in a geographic setting where everyday communication presented obstacles.

“No man understands.” Many understand this as a sort of stand-alone phrase, i.e. it’s not referring back to anything. However, to whom it refers back to must be inferred from context, and the only inference one can make is that “no one [at the worship service] understands [what the speaker is saying]”. The ‘no man understands’ refers back to the speaker; hence, the inclusion of the italicized ‘him’ in the KJV.

Why don’t they understand (him – the speaker)? Not because he’s speaking modern tongues-speech, but rather that his native language is one no one else there happens to speak.

Modern tongues-speakers seem to capitalize on the fact that the passage must be given a bit of context and, for them, the only context that can be inferred is that because the speaker spoke in ‘tongues-speech’, no one [including the speaker] understands.

When one takes into account the everyday situation in Corinth with respect to language and communication, and Paul’s call for clarity and understanding, that inference just isn’t there, nor does it make the least bit of sense.

As Robert Zerhusen in one of his many articles points out (I’m paraphrasing here a bit) – “Throughout 1 Cor., Paul’s interest is consistently focused on the effects upon the group (the ‘church’). This, together with the fact that Corinth was a highly multilingual city on two seaports, strongly supports the concept that, when a person is freely worshiping God, he will use his first language, his native language (i.e. the language of the heart, the language of the spirit – the one he is most familiar with), rather than a second language he may be much less familiar with (so that others may benefit as well).”

If such a person were speaking at a public worship, he would, of course, understand what he was saying – it’s his native language. The audience however (the ‘hearers’ of the language), may not understand a word he’s saying, particularly if the person was from a more remote region/country. This is what Paul is focusing on when he states that “no one understands”; no one understands the speaker. No one at that particular worship service speaks his language, thus what he is saying (and understanding every word of it – it’s his own native language) it benefits only him, the speaker.

Even if one were to add in the italicized words and focusing on the audience as Paul does, ‘unknown language’ refers simply to a language which the audience does not know; not the speaker. “No one understands ‘him’”, only serves to clarify that the audience doesn’t understand what the speaker is saying and further strengthens the point that the speaker himself understands exactly what he’s saying. I would even go so far as to say that it could be argued that, that’s why the ‘him’ was included in the KJV; to eliminate any confusion that it’s only the audience who doesn’t understand what’s being said and to reiterate that the “no man understands” refers back to the speaker (who understands what he himself is saying).

Unfortunately, many of these latter italicized additions seem to be somewhat of a fail. I think the added ‘unknown’ in reference to ‘tongues’ (i.e. languages) was actually a poor choice – ‘foreign’ in these instances would have been considerably clearer and would have eliminated any ambiguity, but again in the 1600’s the word “tongue(s)” was understood to be (a) rational language(s).

If one looks at the Greek, we kind of get a slightly different picture – literally “the one indeed speaking with a language, not to men speaks, but to God; no one indeed hears; in spirit however, he utters mysteries.”

Context must be filled in here as well. The interesting thing is that the word ‘hears’ is used in the sense of ‘understand’, or better yet, ‘hear with understanding’.

I don’t think it changes the meaning or inference though – to add the context: if someone is speaking a (foreign) language, he’s really not speaking to men (read, “other people at the worship service”), but to God (who understands all languages); no one understands (or it could be argued – no one is paying attention to him/no one is really listening to him/no one ‘hears’ him with any degree of understanding). Though he may be praying as the spirit leads/inspires him; (as far as the audience/hearers are concerned) he’s uttering ‘mysteries’ (as no one understands his language).

As previously mentioned, one also has to take into consideration the demographic situation in Corinth as well. To postulate modern ‘tongues-speech’ here just doesn’t stand to reason given the context of not only the passage itself, but also the everyday communication situation in Corinth. Modern tongues-speech just isn’t there.

Another issue is the Pentecostal/Charismatic redefinition of “praying in the spirit” – it does not refer to the words one is saying. Rather, it refers to how one is praying. In the three places it is used (Corinthians, Ephesians, and Jude), there is absolutely zero reference to 'languages' in connection with this phrase. “Praying in the Spirit” should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will. In Pentecostal/Charismatic parlance however, the phase has come to be equated with modern “tongues”, i.e. when one “prays in the Spirit”, one is typically engaged in some form of tongues-speech.

While on the subject, there are not several different “types” of ‘tongues’ in the Bible – only one: real, rational language(s). With respect to modern ‘tongues-speech’ – though each speaker will have their own ‘version’, there is also only one underlying type as well: non-cognitive non-language utterance. The two are not at all mutually inclusive. I’m not suggesting that makes modern tongues-speech wrong in any way, it’s a type of ‘spiritual tool’, if you will, and in some instances, a powerful one and many tongues-speakers will attest. It is certainly not unique to Christianity, people have been using glossolalia for thousands of years, but with respect to Christianity, it is a relatively recent addition.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
13,797
113
In reading many of these posts, and no disrespect intended, but it just astounds me how much 1 Cor. 14:2 is “reinterpreted” to fit the modern tongues experience.

There just isn’t anything in that passage that even remotely suggests the speaker does not understand what he’s saying.

“For one who speaks in a language, speaks not to men, but to God; no one understands…..”

I mean, one needs to use a bit of common sense here and infer from context. One also needs to keep in mind Paul’s focus throughout on the ‘hearers’ of these languages. The demographic situation in Corinth at that time must also be taken into consideration as it also plays a role in the understanding of these passages.

Historical context seems to be often left out of many interpretations of Biblical texts. In this case, I think that because historical context is rarely given any consideration, one of the main points of the passage is completely missed; for Paul, this appears to be clarity and understanding at a public worship so that all may benefit. This, in a geographic setting where everyday communication presented obstacles.

“No man understands.” Many understand this as a sort of stand-alone phrase, i.e. it’s not referring back to anything. However, to whom it refers back to must be inferred from context, and the only inference one can make is that “no one [at the worship service] understands [what the speaker is saying]”. The ‘no man understands’ refers back to the speaker; hence, the inclusion of the italicized ‘him’ in the KJV.

Why don’t they understand (him – the speaker)? Not because he’s speaking modern tongues-speech, but rather that his native language is one no one else there happens to speak.

Modern tongues-speakers seem to capitalize on the fact that the passage must be given a bit of context and, for them, the only context that can be inferred is that because the speaker spoke in ‘tongues-speech’, no one [including the speaker] understands.

When one takes into account the everyday situation in Corinth with respect to language and communication, and Paul’s call for clarity and understanding, that inference just isn’t there, nor does it make the least bit of sense.

As Robert Zerhusen in one of his many articles points out (I’m paraphrasing here a bit) – “Throughout 1 Cor., Paul’s interest is consistently focused on the effects upon the group (the ‘church’). This, together with the fact that Corinth was a highly multilingual city on two seaports, strongly supports the concept that, when a person is freely worshiping God, he will use his first language, his native language (i.e. the language of the heart, the language of the spirit – the one he is most familiar with), rather than a second language he may be much less familiar with (so that others may benefit as well).”

If such a person were speaking at a public worship, he would, of course, understand what he was saying – it’s his native language. The audience however (the ‘hearers’ of the language), may not understand a word he’s saying, particularly if the person was from a more remote region/country. This is what Paul is focusing on when he states that “no one understands”; no one understands the speaker. No one at that particular worship service speaks his language, thus what he is saying (and understanding every word of it – it’s his own native language) it benefits only him, the speaker.

Even if one were to add in the italicized words and focusing on the audience as Paul does, ‘unknown language’ refers simply to a language which the audience does not know; not the speaker. “No one understands ‘him’”, only serves to clarify that the audience doesn’t understand what the speaker is saying and further strengthens the point that the speaker himself understands exactly what he’s saying. I would even go so far as to say that it could be argued that, that’s why the ‘him’ was included in the KJV; to eliminate any confusion that it’s only the audience who doesn’t understand what’s being said and to reiterate that the “no man understands” refers back to the speaker (who understands what he himself is saying).

Unfortunately, many of these latter italicized additions seem to be somewhat of a fail. I think the added ‘unknown’ in reference to ‘tongues’ (i.e. languages) was actually a poor choice – ‘foreign’ in these instances would have been considerably clearer and would have eliminated any ambiguity, but again in the 1600’s the word “tongue(s)” was understood to be (a) rational language(s).

If one looks at the Greek, we kind of get a slightly different picture – literally “the one indeed speaking with a language, not to men speaks, but to God; no one indeed hears; in spirit however, he utters mysteries.”

Context must be filled in here as well. The interesting thing is that the word ‘hears’ is used in the sense of ‘understand’, or better yet, ‘hear with understanding’.

I don’t think it changes the meaning or inference though – to add the context: if someone is speaking a (foreign) language, he’s really not speaking to men (read, “other people at the worship service”), but to God (who understands all languages); no one understands (or it could be argued – no one is paying attention to him/no one is really listening to him/no one ‘hears’ him with any degree of understanding). Though he may be praying as the spirit leads/inspires him; (as far as the audience/hearers are concerned) he’s uttering ‘mysteries’ (as no one understands his language).

As previously mentioned, one also has to take into consideration the demographic situation in Corinth as well. To postulate modern ‘tongues-speech’ here just doesn’t stand to reason given the context of not only the passage itself, but also the everyday communication situation in Corinth. Modern tongues-speech just isn’t there.

Another issue is the Pentecostal/Charismatic redefinition of “praying in the spirit” – it does not refer to the words one is saying. Rather, it refers to how one is praying. In the three places it is used (Corinthians, Ephesians, and Jude), there is absolutely zero reference to 'languages' in connection with this phrase. “Praying in the Spirit” should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will. In Pentecostal/Charismatic parlance however, the phase has come to be equated with modern “tongues”, i.e. when one “prays in the Spirit”, one is typically engaged in some form of tongues-speech.

While on the subject, there are not several different “types” of ‘tongues’ in the Bible – only one: real, rational language(s). With respect to modern ‘tongues-speech’ – though each speaker will have their own ‘version’, there is also only one underlying type as well: non-cognitive non-language utterance. The two are not at all mutually inclusive. I’m not suggesting that makes modern tongues-speech wrong in any way, it’s a type of ‘spiritual tool’, if you will, and in some instances, a powerful one and many tongues-speakers will attest. It is certainly not unique to Christianity, people have been using glossolalia for thousands of years, but with respect to Christianity, it is a relatively recent addition.
You have some good points and you present a compelling case for tongues simply being native languages other than Hebrew (or whatever the local language is). However, you have overlooked one important aspect of "speaking in tongues": that it is a gift/manifestation of the Holy Spirit. People speaking in their native language is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. I think that, by itself, is enough to refute your position.
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
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159
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"However, you have overlooked one important aspect of "speaking in tongues": that it is a gift/manifestation of the Holy Spirit."

I don’t have quite the same view with respect to “spiritual gifts” –

As you may know, there is actually only one place in the entire NT where the term “spiritual gifts” is used (Romans 1:11). After Paul uses the term, he then goes on to define it in following verse: “that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith.” Not much there to support some sort of supernatural extraordinary meaning for the term. The meaning of “spiritual gift”, as Paul uses it, is pretty straightforward.

Considering the fact Paul wrote three letters to three different groups of believers describing spiritual ‘gifts’ and did not routinely repeat the same list of gifts, it’s probably safe to assume there are additional spiritual gifts unlisted in his writings.

Indeed, I would argue that any natural God-given talent may be said to be a “spiritual gift” if used in the ministry of God. Paul describes nine specific ones in his letter to the church in Corinth that he felt were the most important to further the message of Christianity in that church at that time and perhaps also in that area of the world.

The spiritual “gift of tongues” (read “manifestation of languages”) therefore, is not just a knack/ability for learning languages easily than others, but more so, as far as Paul was concerned, using that ability in spreading the message of Christianity and to the further glory of God.

So spiritual gifts/manifestations, whether languages, healing, teaching, etc. may be said to be any natural God-given talent/knack/ability, call it what you will, when used in the ministry of God and for the glory of God.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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"However, you have overlooked one important aspect of "speaking in tongues": that it is a gift/manifestation of the Holy Spirit."

I don’t have quite the same view with respect to “spiritual gifts” –

As you may know, there is actually only one place in the entire NT where the term “spiritual gifts” is used (Romans 1:11). After Paul uses the term, he then goes on to define it in following verse: “that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith.” Not much there to support some sort of supernatural extraordinary meaning for the term. The meaning of “spiritual gift”, as Paul uses it, is pretty straightforward.

Considering the fact Paul wrote three letters to three different groups of believers describing spiritual ‘gifts’ and did not routinely repeat the same list of gifts, it’s probably safe to assume there are additional spiritual gifts unlisted in his writings.

Indeed, I would argue that any natural God-given talent may be said to be a “spiritual gift” if used in the ministry of God. Paul describes nine specific ones in his letter to the church in Corinth that he felt were the most important to further the message of Christianity in that church at that time and perhaps also in that area of the world.

The spiritual “gift of tongues” (read “manifestation of languages”) therefore, is not just a knack/ability for learning languages easily than others, but more so, as far as Paul was concerned, using that ability in spreading the message of Christianity and to the further glory of God.

So spiritual gifts/manifestations, whether languages, healing, teaching, etc. may be said to be any natural God-given talent/knack/ability, call it what you will, when used in the ministry of God and for the glory of God.
Generally, I agree with you... gifts are more than simply the nine described in 1 Cor 12-14, and "gifts" may not be the best term anyway. That said, your position still seems to overlook Acts 2 and 11, where the languages spoken were empowered by the Holy Spirit. That's not merely a "knack", and it is not native languages in those cases.

Your view also seems to contradict 1 Cor 14, where Paul says that if he is praying in a tongue, his mind is unfruitful, so he prays with his mind and with his spirit. That strongly suggests that in the former case he is not praying words that he understands; ie. not a language known to him but not to his audience.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Generally, I agree with you... gifts are more than simply the nine described in 1 Cor 12-14, and "gifts" may not be the best term anyway. That said, your position still seems to overlook Acts 2 and 11, where the languages spoken were empowered by the Holy Spirit. That's not merely a "knack", and it is not native languages in those cases.
They were "native" to somebody. I agree it was not a knack but it was a language know to people.
Your view also seems to contradict 1 Cor 14, where Paul says that if he is praying in a tongue, his mind is unfruitful, so he prays with his mind and with his spirit. That strongly suggests that in the former case he is not praying words that he understands; ie. not a language known to him but not to his audience.
This needs editing to make sense. Especially the last sentence.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dem

Member
Mar 7, 2018
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they are a oneness group they do not hold to the trinity
The bible does not hold to the trinity either. the word is not even in there. I was saved through the UPC teachings and baptized in Jesus name and received the gift of the holy spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.just like they do all through acts. NOt one person is baptized in the bible as trinity folk baptize. As you study the book Cor. you will find that there are two forms of tongues one for self edification and the other for the church, the one for the body is the one someone must give interpretations for the other is between you and God. No one can tell me it is not so for I have received the gift and speak in tongues. I have experience both forms. Once you experience it no one can say it ain't so.... As far as it being a need for salvation I leave that in Gods hands. But why would you want something that brings you closer to God. just asking
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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They were "native" to somebody. I agree it was not a knack but it was a language know to people.

This needs editing to make sense. Especially the last sentence.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
It makes sense to me, but here it is reworded...

That strongly suggests that in the former case (where Paul is praying in a tongue), he is not praying words that he understands. That is to say, he is not praying in a language that he himself has learned; for if he were, his mind would not be "unfruitful".