Speaking in tongues

[garee]

I'm all for systematic theology. Not sure I can follow you about God mocking the Jews through tongues. They were certainly a sign to the Jews. They were a warning of forthcoming judgement but mocking may be a little beyond what the scripture teaches. God did use the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy that they might come back but mocking is a poor characterization.

Tongues as prophecy only confuses the matter. Keep things simple.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I see it more as it completes the matter as the end of it.

Sorry in advance as to my ramblings.

In order to show God is not served by human hands in any way shape or form with the finger of God(will of God) the Spirit of Christ hewed out two tablets of stone. Writing with his finger establishing His law of faith in respect to His work of faith. When Moses came down from having received the written law confirming God not seen has spoken. Men refused to hear God according to their idol worship . The stones tablets were broken. The second time God moved Moses to hewn out two stones and again God wrote the commandment with his own finger.

Deuteronomy 9:10Then the Lord delivered to me two tablets of stone written with the finger of God, and on them were all the words which the Lord had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

The majority of the Jews who were reckoned as having no faith rejected seeking after God as it is written or what son me call solo scriptura. They said not only did Moses receive the written law by also an oral law as traditions of men making the written law without effect.

Colossians 2:8Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ

Mark 7:13making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Because they mocked God with the oral traditions of men.

It would appear that stammering lips( Isaiah 28) is another way of saying according to Strong's lexicon.... to mock, deride, stammer.In order to mock them who mocked God .

You could say according the parable found in Proverbs 26 below. The Spirit of God giving them an answer to show their foolishness, as in you mock me, well I will mock you (the divorced Israel)

Proverbs 26:4-6 Do not answer a fool according to his folly. Lest you also be like him. Answer a fool according to his folly,Lest he be wise in his own eyes.He who sends a message by the hand of a fool Cuts off his own feet and drinks violence

It's like when Sarah laughed at prophecy in respect to having a child at her age. The Holy Spirit to remind her of that kind of mockery... she was to name her child laughter (Isaac) a constant reminder to her of God’s faithfulness to perform His promises despite her lack of faith.

Tongues which is God prophesying in all the languages of the word became as sign against those who mocked prophecy as those who rejected all things written in the law and the prophets. (sola scriptura)
The same principle of the unbelieving (no faith) Jews of today ,God mocking them who hold the oral traditions of the father above that which is written.

No such thing as a sign gift needed to confirm the work of God .we walk by faith the unseen eternal and not by sight the as that seen the temporal .

Prophecy as those who hear the word of God leads and not a sign that we seek after as an oral tradition of men making a noise . Same with falling back slain in the spirit, a sign against those who require an outward sign before they will believe.

Note...(Purple in parenthesis) my personal coments

1 Corinthians 14:22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe (Christians) but to unbelievers; (natural unconverted men) but prophesying (speaking the word of God) is not for unbelievers(natural unconverted men) but for those who believe.(Christians )

 

[notuptome]

Question for you then: My daughter a year ago was at the dentist and had two cavities that needed fixed. Because of various circumstances we did not get her back until a year later. I earnestly prayed that God would heal the cavities, and indeed this time, even after X-rays, the dentist found nothing! I took it as a miracle from God!

What would you say happened?

Misdiagnosis, dentists are in business to make money too. Mine told me I needed a root canal and the second opinion was no way the tooth was fine. I found a new dentist.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

I see it more as it completes the matter as the end of it.

Sorry in advance as to my ramblings.

In order to show God is not served by human hands in any way shape or form with the finger of God(will of God) the Spirit of Christ hewed out two tablets of stone. Writing with his finger establishing His law of faith in respect to His work of faith. When Moses came down from having received the written law confirming God not seen has spoken. Men refused to hear God according to their idol worship . The stones tablets were broken. The second time God moved Moses to hewn out two stones and again God wrote the commandment with his own finger.

Deuteronomy 9:10Then the Lord delivered to me two tablets of stone written with the finger of God, and on them were all the words which the Lord had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

The majority of the Jews who were reckoned as having no faith rejected seeking after God as it is written or what son me call solo scriptura. They said not only did Moses receive the written law by also an oral law as traditions of men making the written law without effect.

Colossians 2:8Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ

Mark 7:13making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Because they mocked God with the oral traditions of men.

It would appear that stammering lips( Isaiah 28) is another way of saying according to Strong's lexicon.... to mock, deride, stammer.In order to mock them who mocked God .

You could say according the parable found in Proverbs 26 below. The Spirit of God giving them an answer to show their foolishness, as in you mock me, well I will mock you (the divorced Israel)

Proverbs 26:4-6 Do not answer a fool according to his folly. Lest you also be like him. Answer a fool according to his folly,Lest he be wise in his own eyes.He who sends a message by the hand of a fool Cuts off his own feet and drinks violence

It's like when Sarah laughed at prophecy in respect to having a child at her age. The Holy Spirit to remind her of that kind of mockery... she was to name her child laughter (Isaac) a constant reminder to her of God’s faithfulness to perform His promises despite her lack of faith.

Tongues which is God prophesying in all the languages of the word became as sign against those who mocked prophecy as those who rejected all things written in the law and the prophets. (sola scriptura)
The same principle of the unbelieving (no faith) Jews of today ,God mocking them who hold the oral traditions of the father above that which is written.

No such thing as a sign gift needed to confirm the work of God .we walk by faith the unseen eternal and not by sight the as that seen the temporal .

Prophecy as those who hear the word of God leads and not a sign that we seek after as an oral tradition of men making a noise . Same with falling back slain in the spirit, a sign against those who require an outward sign before they will believe.

Note...(Purple in parenthesis) my personal coments

1 Corinthians 14:22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe (Christians) but to unbelievers; (natural unconverted men) but prophesying (speaking the word of God) is not for unbelievers(natural unconverted men) but for those who believe.(Christians )

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

There is no difference, Ricky. Tongues are tongues. When spoken to yourself (and to God) there is no need to interpret. When spoken in public, they must be interpreted.

Actually, 1 Cor 12: 10 seems to indicate that we are both wrong

to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

 

[Kavik]

to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

"Different kinds of tongues (read 'languages') is just that; various real, rational languages; nothing to do with modern tongues-speech.

There is indeed only one type of modern tongue-speech/glossolalia - doesn't matter where or to whom or by whom it's spoken; the 'tongues'/glossolalia of a Christian living in the US speaking to God, or an Evenki shaman living in Siberia speaking to his totemic Spirit Guide - it's all the same thing, produced the exact same way.

 

[RickyZ]

"Different kinds of tongues (read 'languages') is just that; various real, rational languages; nothing to do with modern tongues-speech.

There is indeed only one type of modern tongue-speech/glossolalia - doesn't matter where or to whom or by whom it's spoken; the 'tongues'/glossolalia of a Christian living in the US speaking to God, or an Evenki shaman living in Siberia speaking to his totemic Spirit Guide - it's all the same thing, produced the exact same way.

So you are saying that the tongues described in 1 Cor 14 have as their source the same demonic influence that the shaman channeling a spirit guide has....

Ballsy move Mav.

And incredibly dangerous!

 

[shrume]

Actually, 1 Cor 12: 10 seems to indicate that we are both wrong

to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

"Speaking in different kind of tongues" is just another name for speaking in tongues. There is only one kind of tongues. It is speaking a language you do not know. The utterance (words) are given by the Spirit. When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand the language he is speaking.

 

[RickyZ]

Shrume says one kind, the Bible says different kinds. You do know which way I'm going on that, right?

 

[Kavik]

So you are saying that the tongues described in 1 Cor 14 have as their source the same demonic influence that the shaman channeling a spirit guide has....

No, not at all. Tongues described in 1 Cor. 14 are real, rational language(s); not modern tongues-speech. The two are not mutually inclusive.

Modern tongues are produced the same way no matter who is speaking them - their 'source' is the subconscious mind of the individual speaker drawing solely upon the sounds found in language(s) s/he is familiar with.

 

[RickyZ]

Sorry Kav but I don't agree. Both the Bible and experience say different.

And before you poo-poo experience, just let me say that when the Bible says 'do this and you'll see that', then you do this and see that, that experience is totally in line with scripture and therefore valid.

 

[shrume]

Shrume says one kind, the Bible says different kinds. You do know which way I'm going on that, right?

Different kinds of tongues means different languages.

 

[Kavik]

Sorry Kav but I don't agree. Both the Bible and experience say different.

And before you poo-poo experience, just let me say that when the Bible says 'do this and you'll see that', then you do this and see that, that experience is totally in line with scripture and therefore valid.

I have to respectfully disagree. There are absolutely no references to “tongues” in the Bible that cannot be explained and understood in light of real, rational language(s).

As I mentioned in a previous post (though I can’t remember if it was on this thread at all, so…)

If the history of the Pentecost movement is examined, one fact is very clear: at some point between about 1906 and 1907, Pentecostal/Charismatic leaders were compelled to re-examine the narrative of Scripture with respect to “tongues”. The reason for this re-examination was that it quickly became embarrassingly obvious that their original supposition, xenoglossy, certainly wasn’t what they were producing.

This forced a serious theological dilemma — As a whole, either the Pentecostal movement would have to admit it was wrong about “tongues”, or the modern experience needed to be completely redefined. It seems the latter option was chosen.

The resulting implicit theology however was not a synthesis of revelation and philosophy, but rather a synthesis of trying to make sense of the modern “tongues experience” in light of the narrative of Scripture. A way to legitimize and justify the modern phenomenon by ‘proofing’ it in the Bible. The problem with this however, was an obvious overwhelming absence therein of anything resembling modern tongues. Call it what you will, but for this group of Christians, the result was a virtual re-definition of scripture with respect to the understanding and justification of modern “tongues”; a re-interpretation of select texts to fit the modern practice/connotation of what ”tongues” was perceived to be.

The word “tongue(s)” itself is simply a more archaic word for (real) “language(s)”, nothing more. Replace “tongue(s)” with “language(s)” in these various passages and the whole modern Pentecostal/Charismatic concept of “tongues” begins to become difficult to posit – “language(s)” sounds a lot less mysterious, and in many cases, adds more clarity to the text. Again, in Pentecostal/Charismatic parlance however, the word has come to be equated with the modern concept of “tongues-speech”.

The most damning result of this re-definition of scripture is the reading into texts of things that are just not there.

I’m not saying anything negative about the ‘tongues experience’ – Most people who use ‘tongues’ are very keen on describing the ‘experience’; however, when examining the “mechanics” behind it, not so much. Indeed, when a person has experienced tongues, s/he is absolutely convinced as to the ‘scripturalness’ of his/her experience and the correctness of his/her doctrinal beliefs – this, despite the overwhelming scriptural absence of anything remotely akin to it.

Mind you, I'm not doubting or questioning the 'experience'; as mentioned, glossolalia as the tool that it is, can be and typically is very powerful as attested by many of those who practice them. It is important to note however that this same statement can be made for virtually any other culture that practices glossolalia.

"Tongues” is to some Christian believers a very real. powerful, and spiritually meaningful experience, but consisting of emotional release via non-linguistic ‘free vocalizations’ at best; non-cognitive non-language utterance – the subconscious playing with sounds to create what is perceived and interpreted as actual, meaningful speech.

 

[RickyZ]

I will agree with you on the Charismatic/Pentecostal thing. I think for the most part they are doing precisely what the church in Corinth was doing, which prompted Paul to correct them. And I believe the overall gist of what Paul said was, that while he wishes we all would do it, he'd rather we not do it than do it wrong. And sometimes I wonder, for the sake of the masses, if that isn't the better plan .

Otherwise, I don't know what to tell you. God says pray in an unknown directly with me, and you'll see miracles happen. And I pray to Him secretly in an unknown and I see miracles happen. All to His glory. Yeah you've got me curious, I'll have to kick on the Google translate when I pray and see if it catches anything human lol. But honestly, when I'm speaking to God and there are no other humans involved, does it have to be a human language? When it gets down to groanings that cannot be uttered, it doesn't even require a language.

This like all the gifts transcends this finite realm with the infinite spiritual realm. I just can't see spiritual language being confined to those of human origin. Translated into, yes. But limited to, no.

Be well my friend.

 

[garee]

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What is your point? Is baptism a outward sign that proves the Holy Spirt is working in a person according to Charismaticism?

 

[garee]

Actually, 1 Cor 12: 10 seems to indicate that we are both wrong

to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

Nothing there that would inform us it a "sign gift" that confirms on has the Holy Spirit. when god speaks prophecy he interprets in all the languages of the world. It is no more in respect tp the Hebrew alone but is a outward sign against those who refuse to hear prophecy confirming their unbelief (no faith) .

The kingdom of God is not of this temporal world as that seen as if it did come by observation. We walk by faith the unseen eternal not by sight after that seen the temporal

While we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18

 

[Dino246]

What is your point? Is baptism a outward sign that proves the Holy Spirt is working in a person according to Charismaticism?

You still wrongly believe that those who speak in tongues today are all seeking a sign. That simply isn't true. Some people come to faith and start speaking in tongues, without seeking anything but Jesus.

Seeking a sign for its own sake is wrong, but experiencing a sign is not. Further, Paul encourages the believers to "eagerly seek the gifts of the Spirit".

 

[Noose]

Question for you then: My daughter a year ago was at the dentist and had two cavities that needed fixed. Because of various circumstances we did not get her back until a year later. I earnestly prayed that God would heal the cavities, and indeed this time, even after X-rays, the dentist found nothing! I took it as a miracle from God!

What would you say happened?

The fact that you didn't bother to take your daughter to some faith healer in a dungeon somewhere shows that you also believe that there are no faith healers today. But does this mean that God doesn't heal? of course not, i've been healed from diabetes myself and i thank God. Nobody laid their filthy hands on me.

 

[garee]

You still wrongly believe that those who speak in tongues today are all seeking a sign. That simply isn't true. Some people come to faith and start speaking in tongues, without seeking anything but Jesus.

Seeking a sign for its own sake is wrong, but experiencing a sign is not. Further, Paul encourages the believers to "eagerly seek the gifts of the Spirit".

Yes "eagerly seek the gifts of the Spirit". Nothing about as a outward sign to confirm something?

From who do they receive the faith to make a noise to confirm something not seen if they are not seeking??

I would offer no such thing as a sign gift to confirm a person is being filled with the Holy Spirit but never filled called Charismaticism . We walk or understand God by faith not after the things we see with our eyes .(no faith)

I would ask is requiring a sign before one believes wrong?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1 Corinthians 1:21-23

John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, (walk by sight) and believe thee? what dost thou work?

How did Jesus respond to those who wanted to make him a circus seal?

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that "believe", but to them that believe not: but prophesying (God's word) serveth not for them that "believe not", but for them which "believe". 1 Corinthians 14:22

Makes me wonder when he does come on the last day will he find faith? Or those who require a sign before they believe, like in the days of Noah ?

 

[notuptome]

What is your point? Is baptism a outward sign that proves the Holy Spirt is working in a person according to Charismaticism?

The appearance of tongues were an outward sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in new believers. Charismatics and Pentecostals do their thing and then endeavor to find scriptural support afterwards.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[mailmandan]

The appearance of tongues were an outward sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in new believers. Charismatics and Pentecostals do their thing and then endeavor to find scriptural support afterwards.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I will never forget when my friend (who previously attended an Assemblies of God church) went to a Bible study at his Pastor's house once a week and sometimes the Pastor would speak in tongues during their Bible study. My friend worked with a woman who was Baptist that was terrified of being around people who spoke in tongues, yet my friend convinced her to come to the Bible study to see for herself that she has nothing to fear. When his lady friend showed up at the Bible study, as soon as she walked in the door, the Pastor began speaking in tongues very loudly with his hands high in the air, then he fell backwards to the floor! My friend said that even he was freaked out by the incident and when he turned around, his lady friend was running for the hills!