PROVING THE TRINITY IS A BIBLICAL DOCTRINE
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J
It's not a good point. These are "debate" forums and nothing should prevent one from presenting an opposing view. I say Jesus Christ is God and that the Trinity teaching is Biblical. All one has to do is give the scriptures to prove it wrong. Or to put it another way, (as an example) I say the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is identified as God. You then say He can't be God because He is a created being according to the scriptures. Ok, then fine, how do we RECONCILE opposing views/scripture?
Why would you get banned for this type of discussion? And there is no "baiting" involved, at least not on my part. So your answer is, "Well there are to many threads on the subject so lets just throw up are arms and call it day?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Why would you get banned for this type of discussion? And there is no "baiting" involved, at least not on my part. So your answer is, "Well there are to many threads on the subject so lets just throw up are arms and call it day?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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I'm one of the newest members here and this is new news to me. When this is historic fact and Bluto would know all too well people are banned for debating the Trinity, what would be Bluto's motives for starting a thread inviting debate of the Trinity?
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."
Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Habakkuk 1:13
You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong, why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he?
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."
Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Habakkuk 1:13
You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong, why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he?
Apparently your not familar with the other defintion of "beget/begotten." Did you ever wonder why Jesus Christ is the "ONLY begotten Son of God according to John 3:16? The Greek word for begotten is "monogenes" and is used for the only child. But more generally it means "unique" or incomparable." This is how the word is applied to Jesus Christ.
As an example of what I mean Hebrews 11:17 says the following. "By faith Abraham, when he was teste, offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promises was offering up HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON." This event occured at Genesis 22 and Isaac was not Abrahams only begotten son because he had other sons. Isaac was the "unique" son of Abraham based on the next verse, Hebrews 11:18. How was he unique? "It was he to whom it was said, In Isaac your descendants shall be called."
Here is what C.S Lewis said on this issue. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16), while Christians are called adopted sons of God because we are different from God and must become His children, (hence, adopted, not begotten).Jesus is not called adopted because he never became God's Son, but has always been God's Son.
Calling Jesus the only begotten Son of God means that He is of the same nature as God, not a different nature. To beget is to become the father of; to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a bever begets little beavers. But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God, just as what man makes is not man.
That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Jesus Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind. There is a clear distinction between making and begetting. You cannot make what you beget. Therefore to call Jesus the only begotten Son is to say that He has God's nature and was not made or created. Since He has God's nature, He is, by definition, God and therefore eternal. If Jesus was created by God, He could not have been begotten, and John 3:16; 1:18, 1 John 4:9, etc. are in error.
Now, kindly explain why this is wrong or it does not make sense? Btw, here what Strong said.
The KJV translates Strong's G3439 in the following manner: only begotten (6x), only (2x), only child (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
As an example of what I mean Hebrews 11:17 says the following. "By faith Abraham, when he was teste, offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promises was offering up HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON." This event occured at Genesis 22 and Isaac was not Abrahams only begotten son because he had other sons. Isaac was the "unique" son of Abraham based on the next verse, Hebrews 11:18. How was he unique? "It was he to whom it was said, In Isaac your descendants shall be called."
Here is what C.S Lewis said on this issue. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16), while Christians are called adopted sons of God because we are different from God and must become His children, (hence, adopted, not begotten).Jesus is not called adopted because he never became God's Son, but has always been God's Son.
Calling Jesus the only begotten Son of God means that He is of the same nature as God, not a different nature. To beget is to become the father of; to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a bever begets little beavers. But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God, just as what man makes is not man.
That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Jesus Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind. There is a clear distinction between making and begetting. You cannot make what you beget. Therefore to call Jesus the only begotten Son is to say that He has God's nature and was not made or created. Since He has God's nature, He is, by definition, God and therefore eternal. If Jesus was created by God, He could not have been begotten, and John 3:16; 1:18, 1 John 4:9, etc. are in error.
Now, kindly explain why this is wrong or it does not make sense? Btw, here what Strong said.
The KJV translates Strong's G3439 in the following manner: only begotten (6x), only (2x), only child (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- single of its kind, only
- used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
- used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God"
- IN GOD THE SON,
- bluto
No, I don't know this all to well. And doing what exactly? I mean I posted a thread on the Trinity so why can't you respond with your opinion to the contrary? What am I missing?
That is a fact.
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ONLY BEGOTTEN
on'-li be-got-'-'n (monogenes):
Although the English words are found only 6 times in the New Testament, the Greek word appears 9 times, and often in the Septuagint. It is used literally of an only child: "the only son of his mother" (Luke 7:12); "an only daughter" (Luke 8:42); "mine only child" (Luke 9:38); "Isaac .... his only begotten" (Hebrews 11:17). In all other places in the New Testament it refers to Jesus Christ as "the only begotten Son of God" (John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1 John 4:9). In these passages, too, it might be translated as "the only son of God"; for the emphasis seems to be on His uniqueness, rather than on His sonship, though both ideas are certainly present. He is the son of God in a sense in which no others are. "Monogenes describes the absolutely unique relation of the Son to the Father in His divine nature; prototokos describes the relation of the Risen Christ in His glorified humanity to man" (Westcott on Hebrews 1:6). Christ's uniqueness as it appears in the above passages consists of two things:
The reading "God only begotten" in John 1:18 the Revised Version margin, though it has strong textual support, is improbable, and can well be explained as due to orthodox zeal, in opposition to adoptionism. See Grimm-Thayer, Lexicon; Westcott, at the place
T. Rees
Copyright Statement
These files are public domain.
Begotten
To have born; brought forth.
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is BEGOTTEN of him. ( 1 John 1:1 Luke 5:1 )
only (adj.)
Old English ænlic, anlic "only, unique, solitary," literally "one-like," from an "one" (see one) + -lic "-like" (see -ly (1)). It preserves the old pronunciation of one.
Its use as an adverb and conjunction developed in Middle English. Distinction of only and alone (now usually in reference to emotional states) is unusual; in many languages the same word serves for both. German also has a distinction in allein/einzig. Phrase only-begotten (mid-15c.) is biblical, translating Latin unigenitus, Greek monogenes. The Old English form was ancenned.
Holy God brought forth , begat, his only son into the womb of a virgin. Jesus could be none other than holy divine God. Monogenes. Defeating then the tritheism of trinity.
on'-li be-got-'-'n (monogenes):
Although the English words are found only 6 times in the New Testament, the Greek word appears 9 times, and often in the Septuagint. It is used literally of an only child: "the only son of his mother" (Luke 7:12); "an only daughter" (Luke 8:42); "mine only child" (Luke 9:38); "Isaac .... his only begotten" (Hebrews 11:17). In all other places in the New Testament it refers to Jesus Christ as "the only begotten Son of God" (John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1 John 4:9). In these passages, too, it might be translated as "the only son of God"; for the emphasis seems to be on His uniqueness, rather than on His sonship, though both ideas are certainly present. He is the son of God in a sense in which no others are. "Monogenes describes the absolutely unique relation of the Son to the Father in His divine nature; prototokos describes the relation of the Risen Christ in His glorified humanity to man" (Westcott on Hebrews 1:6). Christ's uniqueness as it appears in the above passages consists of two things:
- He reveals the Father:
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (John 1:18). Men therefore behold His glory, "glory as of the only begotten from the Father" (1:14). - He is the mediator of salvation:
"God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him" (1John 4:9; John 3:16); "He that believeth not (on him) hath been judged already" (John 3:18). Other elements in His uniqueness may be gathered from other passages, as His sinlessness, His authority to forgive sins, His unbroken communion with the Father, and His unique knowledge of Him. To say that it is a uniqueness of nature or essence carries thought no farther, for these terms still need definition, and they can be defined only in terms of His moral consciousness, of His revelation of God, and especially of His intimate union as Son with the Father.
The reading "God only begotten" in John 1:18 the Revised Version margin, though it has strong textual support, is improbable, and can well be explained as due to orthodox zeal, in opposition to adoptionism. See Grimm-Thayer, Lexicon; Westcott, at the place
T. Rees
Copyright Statement
These files are public domain.
Begotten
To have born; brought forth.
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is BEGOTTEN of him. ( 1 John 1:1 Luke 5:1 )
only (adj.)
Old English ænlic, anlic "only, unique, solitary," literally "one-like," from an "one" (see one) + -lic "-like" (see -ly (1)). It preserves the old pronunciation of one.
Its use as an adverb and conjunction developed in Middle English. Distinction of only and alone (now usually in reference to emotional states) is unusual; in many languages the same word serves for both. German also has a distinction in allein/einzig. Phrase only-begotten (mid-15c.) is biblical, translating Latin unigenitus, Greek monogenes. The Old English form was ancenned.
Holy God brought forth , begat, his only son into the womb of a virgin. Jesus could be none other than holy divine God. Monogenes. Defeating then the tritheism of trinity.
As written, the LORD would raise up a man and put his words in that Prophets mouth and and Prophet shall speak all that that LORD hath commanded him.
So who said, "if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."?
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deut 18:18
Thus one must be able to discern between the spirit and the word.So who said, "if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."?
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. John 8:47
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12
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J
No, I don't know this all to well. And doing what exactly? I mean I posted a thread on the Trinity so why can't you respond with your opinion to the contrary? What am I missing?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
and no, i cant respond to the other side of the argument because i get banned for doing this.
What do you mean by "what's to prove?" Are there not people on these forums that deny the deity of Jesus Christ? Are there not people on these forums that deny and go to great lenghts saying the Trinity doctrine is not Biblical and was made up at the Council of Nicea? Are there not people on these forums that deny that Jesus Christ did no preexist His incarnation?
Were not here to play "jacks," these are life and death issues that many are clueless about. The Apostle Peter said at 1 Peter3:15, "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, ALWAYS being ready to make a DEFENSE to everyone who asks you to give an ACCOUNT for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence."
So what are going to tell them jaumej? Just find Isaiah 9:6, read it, mediate on its plain words and God will make sure you'll be ok as long as it suits His purposes. Tell me, how has that method been going for you so far?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Were not here to play "jacks," these are life and death issues that many are clueless about. The Apostle Peter said at 1 Peter3:15, "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, ALWAYS being ready to make a DEFENSE to everyone who asks you to give an ACCOUNT for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence."
So what are going to tell them jaumej? Just find Isaiah 9:6, read it, mediate on its plain words and God will make sure you'll be ok as long as it suits His purposes. Tell me, how has that method been going for you so far?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Name=Authority
The child's/son's authorities are:
Eternal Father- Father
Wonderful Counselor- Holy spirit
Mighty God- Mighty God
Prince of Peace- Son
Where does it say three persons in one being?
First of all the purpose of the thread was to point out two issues. The first one is who is Jesus Christ and the second one is to show the docrine of the Trinity is a Biblical doctrine. It's not made up by some men that met in a "smoked" filled room trying to figure out a way to "dupe" people.
You stated the trinity falls short, how? Does the Bible identify the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as the one God? I can provide the verses if you like and you provide the verses that prove me wrong. So go ahead, give it your best shot and prove the trinity is a falsehood based on philosophy. I almost forgot to address this statement of yours. One indication against trinity is that earlier on believers who were against it were tortured and killed - this can not be from God." What's that suppose to mean? Christians are totured and killed everyday and in fact Jesus Christ Himself predicted this would happen, so how is your point suppose to be valid?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You stated the trinity falls short, how? Does the Bible identify the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as the one God? I can provide the verses if you like and you provide the verses that prove me wrong. So go ahead, give it your best shot and prove the trinity is a falsehood based on philosophy.
I almost forgot to address this statement of yours. One indication against trinity is that earlier on believers who were against it were tortured and killed - this can not be from God." What's that suppose to mean? Christians are totured and killed everyday and in fact Jesus Christ Himself predicted this would happen, so how is your point suppose to be valid?IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
How do you add two more persons and still end up with one being?
Unless these two persons are within Jesus then it means they are not distinct persons from the person of Jesus.
Christians persecuted other believers in the name of heresy.
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What do you mean by "what's to prove?" Are there not people on these forums that deny the deity of Jesus Christ? Are there not people on these forums that deny and go to great lenghts saying the Trinity doctrine is not Biblical and was made up at the Council of Nicea? Are there not people on these forums that deny that Jesus Christ did no preexist His incarnation?
Were not here to play "jacks," these are life and death issues that many are clueless about. The Apostle Peter said at 1 Peter3:15, "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, ALWAYS being ready to make a DEFENSE to everyone who asks you to give an ACCOUNT for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence."
So what are going to tell them jaumej? Just find Isaiah 9:6, read it, mediate on its plain words and God will make sure you'll be ok as long as it suits His purposes. Tell me, how has that method been going for you so far?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Were not here to play "jacks," these are life and death issues that many are clueless about. The Apostle Peter said at 1 Peter3:15, "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, ALWAYS being ready to make a DEFENSE to everyone who asks you to give an ACCOUNT for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence."
So what are going to tell them jaumej? Just find Isaiah 9:6, read it, mediate on its plain words and God will make sure you'll be ok as long as it suits His purposes. Tell me, how has that method been going for you so far?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I elaorated after the
What do you mean by "what's to prove?" Are there not people on these forums that deny the deity of Jesus Christ? Are there not people on these forums that deny and go to great lenghts saying the Trinity doctrine is not Biblical and was made up at the Council of Nicea? Are there not people on these forums that deny that Jesus Christ did no preexist His incarnation?
Were not here to play "jacks," these are life and death issues that many are clueless about. The Apostle Peter said at 1 Peter3:15, "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, ALWAYS being ready to make a DEFENSE to everyone who asks you to give an ACCOUNT for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence."
So what are going to tell them jaumej? Just find Isaiah 9:6, read it, mediate on its plain words and God will make sure you'll be ok as long as it suits His purposes. Tell me, how has that method been going for you so far?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Were not here to play "jacks," these are life and death issues that many are clueless about. The Apostle Peter said at 1 Peter3:15, "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, ALWAYS being ready to make a DEFENSE to everyone who asks you to give an ACCOUNT for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence."
So what are going to tell them jaumej? Just find Isaiah 9:6, read it, mediate on its plain words and God will make sure you'll be ok as long as it suits His purposes. Tell me, how has that method been going for you so far?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Yes, God begat Himself and there's no need to call this gibberish because this is what is revealed in the scriptures:
Mal 3:1“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
Isa 40:
3A voice of one calling:
“In the wilderness prepare
the way for the Lorda ;
make straight in the desert
a highway for our God.
Mark 1:
1The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,a the Son of God,b 2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”c —
3“a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’ ”d
4And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you withe water, but he will baptize you withf the Holy Spirit.”
9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
If you still don't understand what is happening here let me know.
Mal 3:1“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
Isa 40:
3A voice of one calling:
“In the wilderness prepare
the way for the Lorda ;
make straight in the desert
a highway for our God.
Mark 1:
1The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,a the Son of God,b 2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”c —
3“a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’ ”d
4And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you withe water, but he will baptize you withf the Holy Spirit.”
9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
If you still don't understand what is happening here let me know.
