you get this idea from.... where exactly? they seem to actually be doing as they please with it in the text.
Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?
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you get this idea from.... where exactly? they seem to actually be doing as they please with it in the text.
I read and learn from the writings of Paul, however it is unfair to refer to what people may think about him as mere "rumors."
According to Paul, he is an apostle, and he is if he is sent out by God,however he is not counted with the original twelve, not at all in prophecy.
The only witness of Paul seems to come from Paul on most of his activities..
Paul is not prophesied , so to say those who are dubious of his writings are merely hearing and uibject to rumors is very unfair.
Again, I learn from Paul, but my first and foremost Master (Teacher) will always be Jesus Christ.
Thanks for your input, Posthuman! Your arguments are good, but I still see a considerable difference between Jesus and Paul regarding salvation of the rich. Jesus says "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle ...", whereas Paul just says rich people should not be arrogant neither should they rely on wealth.
Jesus said he had come to fulfill the Law and I think that's what He was doing when He said: "sell everything you own and give it away to the poor". The Lord was expounding the Law -- bringing it to perfection -- with regard to helping the poor.
Let's see the meaning of FULFILL:
LANGE COMMENTARY (found in www.biblehub.com).
But to fulfill, ἀλλὰ πληρῶσαι.—The expression is differently interpreted, as meaning: 1. actually to fulfil (Elsner, Wolf, Bleek, and others); 2. to complete doctrinally, = τελειῶσαι, to interpret more fully, to perfect, i.e., to bring out its spiritual meaning (Lightfoot, Hammond, etc.); 3. combining the two views: to make perfect as doctrine, and to exhibit perfectly in the life. In adopting the latter interpretation, we must keep in mind that this πλήρωσις is not to be understood as implying that an imperfect revelation was to be completed, but that a preliminary and typical revelation was to be presented in all its fulness, and completely realized by word and deed. [Dr. Wordsworth: “Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets by obedience, by accomplishment of types, ceremonies, rites, and prophecies, and by explaining, spiritualizing, elevating, enlarging, and perfecting the moral law, by writing it on the heart, and by giving grace to obey it, as well as an example of obedience, by taking away its curse; and by the doctrine of free justification by faith in Himself, which the law prefigured and anticipated, but could not give.”
No, I am at home! I don't have to give it away because I believe that the teachings of the resurrected Lord Jesus (relayed to us through Paul) take precedence over the teachings He gave to the Jews during His earthly ministry.
Paul is not a false apostle, nor did he stray from Jesus' teachings.
Jesus met Saul on the road to Damascus, and straightway he followed Jesus, and said he did not receive the truth from other people, but from the revelation of Jesus Christ, which he did not need to have faith for he seen it as an eye witness, the same as the disciples that did not need faith for they seen it in person, and said he taught the wisdom of God, and not of man.
Paul said he did not want to know anything among the saints, but Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and said if anybody teaches another Gospel let them be accursed.
People that did follow Paul, who followed Christ, and then did not, and went back to the world he dismissed, although he wanted them to abide in the truth.
Was given an abundance of revelations that God allowed a messenger of Satan to buffet him in the flesh, so he would not get arrogant but stay humble, for God resists the proud but gives grace unto the humble, and he wanted to use Paul.
Paul got in Peter's face and told him he did not walk according to the Gospel of truth, and the disciples accepted him.
Was not arrogant but said he is the least of least of the saints.
Preached being led of the Spirit, and abstaining from sin, and rebuked people when they walked according to the flesh enjoying sins.
Preached unto the Gentiles who were in to works of their religions, and said none of those works can save them, but only by confessing Jesus by faith can they be saved, and to abandon their religious works, but then speaks the same as James and John when they are led of the Spirit, saying they have to have charity, love in action, or they are nothing, and have erred from the faith.
So Paul taught a strict moral lifestyle, and said he keeps under his body, and keeps it in subjection, which that is pleasing to God, and if a person preaches a strict moral lifestyle they would have to be led of the Spirit, for the flesh would not do that, and if led of the Spirit you are right with God, so Paul was right with God.
And Paul taught the same from the first book to the last book that he wrote.
Never abandoned the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, never abandoned a strict moral lifestyle led by the Spirit, never advocated works that are of people's doings and not the Lord, said to feed the poor and hungry if you can, people that abandoned the truth that were with him he went against, and rebuked the people engaging in sins, taught the nations will come together having an understanding of the coming beast kingdom in the future that will rebel against God, and to not go along with them, and gave all glory to God and Jesus, and if anybody abandoned the truth of the Gospel let them be accursed, and had revelations from God big time.
Paul taught the same thing from the first book to the last book he wrote, and he was definitely led of the Spirit, and if led of the Spirit he is saved, and even when he was near to die he said, I have ran the race, I have finished the course, and he is ready to meet the Lord, which means he stayed in the truth from start to finish.
Paul did not abandon any truth, and it is funny that people say he abandoned the truth, and was a false prophet, which if we are honest Paul would make a lot of us, and I mean a lot of us, look like a casual Christian compared to him and the strictness he had to following the truth.
Whatever Jesus taught Paul taught.
But this is the icing on the cake that Paul is not a false apostle, and will surely testify Paul was not a false apostle, well not really the icing for it is obvious that Paul was not a false apostle, but adds to the fact that Paul was not a false apostle, and a very good fact indeed.
God changed names in the Bible of people to identify their new identity in the LORD, and to set them apart to follow him.
God changed Abram to Abraham, and do you think Abraham is saved.
Changed Sarai to Sarah, and do you think Sarah is saved.
Changed Jacob to Israel, and do you think Jacob is saved, and Israel not His chosen people, and Israel is still God's people, and when a Gentile is saved they become a Jew inward, and part of the commonwealth of Israel, but Israel goes through trouble because of their rejection of Christ, but God will turn the nation of Israel to the truth of Jesus in the future, and all Israel shall be saved and become spiritual at that time, where all Gentile nations will fall that rebelled against God.
Changed Simon to Peter, and do you think Peter is saved.
If God changes a person's name to another name to identify their new identity in the LORD, and they are set apart for Him, you can rest assured they are saved, for if God changed their name He also knows they will do what is right to inherit eternal life, and He will see to it.
For if God changed their name and they failed at obtaining eternal life, then God failed for the new name did not live up to what God changed the name for, so you can know they have salvation and will live up to that name.
God changed the name of Saul to Paul, so what does that tell you.
Did Abraham fail who is the father of many nations.
Did Jacob fail who became Israel, and the nation Israel God's chosen people.
Did Peter fail who was given the keys to the kingdom, and the Church was built upon him after Christ the chief cornerstone and foundation, and preached the first sermon that got the Church going in the truth.
And neither will Paul fail, and not stray, and not waiver, who is sent to the Gentiles to preach the truth to them.
When God changes a name of a person to follow Him it is iron clad they will accomplish their mission, and stay in the truth from start to death.
For these name changes is the big moments in history, and a benefit to mankind, Abraham, father of all nations, and being right with God having the same faith as Abraham, got the ball rolling there.
Jacob, Israel, God's chosen people, and everybody saved belongs to Israel, got the ball rolling there.
Peter, keys to the kingdom given to him, Church built upon him after Christ, preached the first message of salvation, got the ball rolling there.
Paul, sent to Gentiles, got the ball rolling there.
But Jesus is the greatest one, and the most favored of all, and without Him none of it was possible, who did not have a name change, why, because He is perfect according to His humanity, and God, and set apart for God before He was born, and for eternity, so no name change was required, who is the ultimate one who got the ball rolling for salvation and the truth.
But mere mortal men born in sin need a name change to identify their new identity in the LORD when it comes to a big game changing plan of God for the good of humanity.
And Paul was one of them.
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
this is not only a red herring, but a red whale...Moby Red
Jesus spoke to the young rich man when He said that. He was not preaching in the temple and this was not a part of the Sermon on the Mount nor did He even say it to His disciples and they did not teach it after Jesus ascended
have you not been able to read the rest of the New Testament?
you are not even making sense but I have read you use this very same 'proof of difference' before
you confuse yourself following 'teachers' that have confused themselves with all their learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth
you must be simply ignoring how Jesus appeared to Paul personally and how the Apostles approved the message Paul spoke
you are actually preaching a different gospel by your renderings.
you are in disagreement with Jesus appearing to Paul and the Apostles approving Paul
a little arrogant don't you think?
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
there is not stumbling over Paul's teaching with regards to what I highlighted about
you spelled out the problem actually. you state that YOU see a difference
as has been pointed out throughout this thread...it is not a recent thread but it started up again...Jesus HImself appointed Paul
if you believe the rest of the Bible, why are you stumbling over that?
there are differences in OT prophets...do you stumble over them also?
I am of the opinion that certain people seem to just want to make the Bible a pick and choose buffet
this notion that we do not have to pay attention to all Jesus said, or Paul and Jesus disagreed, is a part of that buffet
I doubt you will 'see' the scripture that indicates otherwise because you have already picked your favorite parts
however, the fact you come back to discuss it again, indicates you might just be a tad unsure afterall
but that's ok...just continue to carve up the Bible. do you have an idea of which spirit it is that causes all this doubt and causes people to question the truth and the authority of scripture?
Hey! Posthuman... PTL!
Mk 1:18-20 "And straightway they forsook their nets and followed him. And when he had gone a little further hence, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the ship mending their nets. And straightway he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants and went after him."
Lu 5:7-11 "And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came and filled both ships, and filled both ships, so that they began to sink. When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord. For he was astonished and those that were with him, at the draught of fishes that were taken. And so also was James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon; fear not; for from henceforth thou shalt catch men. And when they had brought their ships to land, they forsook all, and followed him."
Here we can see that Peter and Andrew his brother were in business with James and John along with their father. When Jesus called them, they forsook all and followed him. Zebedee stayed with the ships along with the servants; makingit possible for them to use the ships at need, even though they had forsaken all.
Maranatha!
Mk 1:18-20 "And straightway they forsook their nets and followed him. And when he had gone a little further hence, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the ship mending their nets. And straightway he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants and went after him."
Lu 5:7-11 "And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came and filled both ships, and filled both ships, so that they began to sink. When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord. For he was astonished and those that were with him, at the draught of fishes that were taken. And so also was James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon; fear not; for from henceforth thou shalt catch men. And when they had brought their ships to land, they forsook all, and followed him."
Here we can see that Peter and Andrew his brother were in business with James and John along with their father. When Jesus called them, they forsook all and followed him. Zebedee stayed with the ships along with the servants; makingit possible for them to use the ships at need, even though they had forsaken all.
Maranatha!
No, the teaching was not specific to the rich man -- it was to all the Jews. See Luke 12:33 "sell your possessions and give alms". After the resurrection the disciples did sell their possessions. Do you remember Ananias and Sapphira?
I don't ignore the fact that Jesus appeared to Paul -- I often say that Paul was the Lord's spokesman.
The only good point you made was this one: the apostles approved Paul's message. But you didn't say what's more important in defense of your point of view: the apostles said that Paul's message was the same as theirs. So, if you want to destroy me you must focus your artillery on this portion of Scripture (the apostles approval) -- this is my weak point.
I can't explain why the apostles said that Paul's message was the same as theirs, but one thing I know for sure: There are differences between Jesus' teachings and Paul's teachings.
By the way, have you already given away all your possessions? If all of Jesus' teachings are for Christians then it's about time you sell your possessions and keep giving alms; and don't forget to keep the Sabbath! Well, don't forget to keep the 613 laws of Moses.
Jesus taught that we must adhere to the law 100% to be excepted by God. A feat that knowone can do. That is to show we need Jesus as our savior. After the cross, Jesus was that savior. The old covenant was completed.
Now we live in the new covenant. Love is now our guide not fear of the law.
P
pjharrison
Guest
No. I think that people don't understand some of his teachings, or they don't want to believe his teachings, so they want to discredit it. Just ignore it and live the way they want too.
Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”
2 John/Yahanan 1:9, "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have Yah. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."
John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
*Mosheh wrote:
Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"
"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}
Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey
Isaiah 45:22-25, “Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am Mighty, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, a word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, so that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue swear. One shall say, ‘Only in יהוה do I have righteousness and strength’ – he comes to Him. And all those displeased with Him shall be put to shame. In יהוה all the seed of Yisra’yl shall be declared right and glory.”
Luke 6:46-9, “But why do you call Me ‘Master, Master,’ and do not do what I say? "“Everyone who is coming to Me, and is hearing My words and is doing them, I shall show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock. And when a flood came, the stream burst against that house, but was unable to shake it, for it was founded on the rock. But the one hearing and not doing, is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream burst, and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”
John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”
John/Yahanan 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
2 John/Yahanan 1:9, "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have Yah. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."
John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
*Mosheh wrote:
Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"
"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}
Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey
Isaiah 45:22-25, “Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am Mighty, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, a word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, so that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue swear. One shall say, ‘Only in יהוה do I have righteousness and strength’ – he comes to Him. And all those displeased with Him shall be put to shame. In יהוה all the seed of Yisra’yl shall be declared right and glory.”
Luke 6:46-9, “But why do you call Me ‘Master, Master,’ and do not do what I say? "“Everyone who is coming to Me, and is hearing My words and is doing them, I shall show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock. And when a flood came, the stream burst against that house, but was unable to shake it, for it was founded on the rock. But the one hearing and not doing, is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream burst, and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”
John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”
John/Yahanan 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
John/Yahanan 10:27-30, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; neither will any man snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand: I and My Father are in accord."
Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"
Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
well no it was not to the entire nation
if it had been to the entire nation, why would God have executed the tithe?
I know that's deep
I didn't know we were online gaming. must be how you see things I guess
this must be one of those 'I don't know how electricity works but I have a light switch' things
scripture is not interpreted that way. the rest of us, including thousands of years of study, are not swayed by your conclusions...that seem to be puzzling even to yourself as you state you have no explanation other than your own word is good enough
I remember you were following some online dude and I don't have the time to go looking...but you were basically parroting what he was teaching
so, no light bulb going on for your expertise on your favorite non applicable question
but that's ok because you cannot put your finger on the differences...did you loose the link? might refresh your parroting
why are you trying to somehow work into the law what Jesus said to the young rich man?
again, if this was a commandment to the nation, God would have given it to Moses
but I've seen enough to understand that it gives you comfort to believe you are on to something...even though you do not understand it yourself as you have said
P
pottersclay
Guest
Paul had many enemies in the day. Mostly Christian's that believe in the works for salvation doctrine. Also the reformed Jews who insisted on conversion to judisim to be proper.
Knowing he was not of the 11 made him suspect of a false gospel message.
Paul's gospel message Christ crucified ushers in Grace which we have a hard time to this day in learning.
All the teachings of Paul can be found in the words of Jesus as Paul's words gave life to the shadows of the old testament.
Not fully understanding the old testament the conversion of the gentiles were ruled by Jewish criticism of signs and wonders and blood and sacrifice which made a hodgepodge of the true gospel message.
Paul stood firm as to what the Holy Spirit showed and led him in building the bridge between the old and new testament on to the everlasting.
Knowing he was not of the 11 made him suspect of a false gospel message.
Paul's gospel message Christ crucified ushers in Grace which we have a hard time to this day in learning.
All the teachings of Paul can be found in the words of Jesus as Paul's words gave life to the shadows of the old testament.
Not fully understanding the old testament the conversion of the gentiles were ruled by Jewish criticism of signs and wonders and blood and sacrifice which made a hodgepodge of the true gospel message.
Paul stood firm as to what the Holy Spirit showed and led him in building the bridge between the old and new testament on to the everlasting.
Referring to Paul being a false anything, just as the question being presented in this thread. I have never heard anyone say it personally, that was the point.
Question for you "Jesus is my teacher" where did you find that written?
Many references are made to Jesus being our Master, this is not a slave-master relationship, it is referring to Him as our Master (Teacher.)
Also, He is referred to as Raboni, oe my Great kRabbi, again teacher.
The Gospel is the Gospel of Jesus Christ,passed on to us by the Twelve and others not of the Twelve but nevertheless sent out as Apostle may be defined.
There is no other authority on the Gospel but Jesus Christ, all we have since He are people who are learned of Him.
There are several references to His being our Teacher, some simply when we read we should hear Him.........even if this advice is being given to a brother in Christ in the Word, it is to all of us.
I have not said you shoul not learn by means of PAUL, but always keep in the forefront of your understanding that Paul is taught the same Gospel as were Abraham first, the Hebrews at the Mount, the Jews at Christ's first advent in the flesh, and closely followed by His other flock, gentiles......
Also, He is referred to as Raboni, oe my Great kRabbi, again teacher.
The Gospel is the Gospel of Jesus Christ,passed on to us by the Twelve and others not of the Twelve but nevertheless sent out as Apostle may be defined.
There is no other authority on the Gospel but Jesus Christ, all we have since He are people who are learned of Him.
There are several references to His being our Teacher, some simply when we read we should hear Him.........even if this advice is being given to a brother in Christ in the Word, it is to all of us.
I have not said you shoul not learn by means of PAUL, but always keep in the forefront of your understanding that Paul is taught the same Gospel as were Abraham first, the Hebrews at the Mount, the Jews at Christ's first advent in the flesh, and closely followed by His other flock, gentiles......