Leviticus Question

[Seeker47]

In Leviticus 20: 1-5 God establishes a punishment that is to be delivered for a sin. He then goes further and states that He will turn his back upon anyone who fails to carry out that punishment.

I am no Bible scholar but can find no other instance in Leviticus where He takes his commands to this second level, holding the community responsible if His instruction is not followed.

Are there other examples, either in Leviticus or elsewhere?

 

[JaumeJ]

Reading the law without applying mercy, justice and faith in the light of the rest of the teaching of Jesus Christ will always leave a person blind to the light.

Do not fear the "punishment" of the law if you believe Jesus Christi for you are free of its curse. This does not translate as having some right to live in sin, so always do your best to obey the laws the Holy Spirit has taught you from the beginning of your faith. God bless you.

 

[Seeker47]

Reading the law without applying mercy, justice and faith in the light of the rest of the teaching of Jesus Christ will always leave a person blind to the light.

Do not fear the "punishment" of the law if you believe Jesus Christi for you are free of its curse. This does not translate as having some right to live in sin, so always do your best to obey the laws the Holy Spirit has taught you from the beginning of your faith. God bless you.

I read this passage in light of the OT history of Kings and Kingdoms and God's response when they ignore God's laws. I am forgiven of my sin's by the blood of Christ Jesus but does this free us as a society from either the law or the consequences?

 

[JaumeJ]

I read this passage in light of the OT history of Kings and Kingdoms and God's response when they ignore God's laws. I am forgiven of my sin's by the blood of Christ Jesus but does this free us as a society from either the law or the consequences?

It is written in the NT that the writings in the OT of various events are there as ensamples for us to learn.

 

[notuptome]

I read this passage in light of the OT history of Kings and Kingdoms and God's response when they ignore God's laws. I am forgiven of my sin's by the blood of Christ Jesus but does this free us as a society from either the law or the consequences?

These statutes were given for Israel that they would have a society very much different from the surrounding nations which were pagan and very given over to idolatry.

God placed no such burden on any of the other nations but all nations were to observe Israel and see how God blessed them for being faithful to the word of God. When Israel was not faithful the nations saw God bring judgment on Israel.

Cycle in the OT God blesses Israel, Israel turns from God, Israel judged, Israel repents, God restores Israel. Repeat and never learn the lesson.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Deuteronomy]

In Leviticus 20: 1-5 God establishes a punishment that is to be delivered for a sin. He then goes further and states that He will turn his back upon anyone who fails to carry out that punishment.

I am no Bible scholar but can find no other instance in Leviticus where He takes his commands to this second level, holding the community responsible if His instruction is not followed.

Are there other examples, either in Leviticus or elsewhere?

Hi Seeker47, is Leviticus 20:4-5 saying that God will punish 'the community' for not putting to death those who have played the harlot after Molech, or is He actually saying that He will see to the punishment of 'the man' Himself if the community refuses to do so?

........Leviticus 20
........4 If the people of the land should in any way hide their eyes from the man, when he gives some of his descendants to Molech,
........and they do not kill him,
........5 then I will set My face against that man and against his family; and I will cut him off from his people, and all who prostitute
.........themselves with him to commit harlotry with Molech.

It seems to me that it could be read either way in one or two of the paraphrases, but the translations and most of the tighter paraphrases all read like the NKJV does above, IOW, that one way or the other (by the hand of the community ~or~ by Mine .. if the community of Israel refuses to punish him as they should) a man who plays the harlot after Molech will be put to death (as will his entire family).

~Deut

 

[Adstar]

I read this passage in light of the OT history of Kings and Kingdoms and God's response when they ignore God's laws. I am forgiven of my sin's by the blood of Christ Jesus but does this free us as a society from either the law or the consequences?

Worldly Authorities can establish any Law and linked punishments it wills.. So while we are forgiven sins through trusting in the Atonement of Jesus we can still face the punishment of the authorities of this world if we are found guilty of transgressing any of their laws..

The Laws of God are good so when we break them we must never seek to justify our transgression in that way we are always acknowledging Gods will to be good and we are being constantly forgiven and will not face judgement from God on the day of judgement.. We are called upon not to judge others in this life.. Meaning we are not to carry out the punishments that are linked to the Laws of God..

So the moral laws of god are good and true and we should strive to keep them.. but through Jesus the penalties for law breaking have been removed..

 

[Adstar]

In Leviticus 20: 1-5 God establishes a punishment that is to be delivered for a sin. He then goes further and states that He will turn his back upon anyone who fails to carry out that punishment.

I think you have misread the scriptures::

Leviticus 20: KJV
4 "And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not: {5} Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people."

What God is saying here is that if the people fail to execute the man then God Himself will carry out the execution upon the man and everyone else who acted like that man in the land... God was not saying that He would cut the people off.. Verse 5 is still dealing with the actual offender and anyone else who serves molech...

God is not saying that he will turn his back upon the people..

 

[posthuman]

In Leviticus 20: 1-5 God establishes a punishment that is to be delivered for a sin. He then goes further and states that He will turn his back upon anyone who fails to carry out that punishment.

I am no Bible scholar but can find no other instance in Leviticus where He takes his commands to this second level, holding the community responsible if His instruction is not followed.

Are there other examples, either in Leviticus or elsewhere?

it is complimented in a way by that if we do not do the good we know we ought to do, when it is in our hand to do it, it is sin for us. ((re: James 4:17))
because here it is sin to know that sacrificing to Molech is evil, to see it happening, and not to do anything about it.

 

[Seeker47]

I think you have misread the scriptures::

Leviticus 20: KJV
4 "And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not: {5} Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people."

What God is saying here is that if the people fail to execute the man then God Himself will carry out the execution upon the man and everyone else who acted like that man in the land... God was not saying that He would cut the people off.. Verse 5 is still dealing with the actual offender and anyone else who serves molech...

God is not saying that he will turn his back upon the people..

I acknowledge that I may have misread the scripture, that's why I asked. I can see how it can be read either way.

But I also must note that OT history is full of examples of God bringing destruction on kings and kingdoms who turn from his ways. (Solomon, Manasseh, Amom Ahaz, Judah, Benjamin and Ephraim). It seems to me that idol worship, especially sacrifices to Molech is one of the primary reasons cited for His wrath.

Again, I am no scholar and welcome the discussion.

 

[Adstar]

I acknowledge that I may have misread the scripture, that's why I asked. I can see how it can be read either way.

But I also must note that OT history is full of examples of God bringing destruction on kings and kingdoms who turn from his ways. (Solomon, Manasseh, Amom Ahaz, Judah, Benjamin and Ephraim). It seems to me that idol worship, especially sacrifices to Molech is one of the primary reasons cited for His wrath.

Again, I am no scholar and welcome the discussion.

Well i agree that the transgressions of the Israeli people against the Laws of God brought upon them the wrath of God.. This established that the price of sin is death.. The death penalty was included in the OT law on a number of the laws and when transgressions agains the Law became common and the Jewish people on mass disregarded the Law God would carry out judgement upon them.. Usually using other nations like the Syrians or the Babylonians or the Persians and eventually the Romans to carry out destruction to varying degrees upon the Jews..

 

[Deuteronomy]

I acknowledge that I may have misread the scripture, that's why I asked. I can see how it can be read either way.

But I also must note that OT history is full of examples of God bringing destruction on kings and kingdoms who turn from his ways. (Solomon, Manasseh, Amom Ahaz, Judah, Benjamin and Ephraim). It seems to me that idol worship, especially sacrifices to Molech is one of the primary reasons cited for His wrath.

Again, I am no scholar and welcome the discussion.

Hi again Seeker47, I'm not sure why one or two of our paraphrases make it appear as if God will punish the people of Israel for not putting someone who played the harlot with Molech to death, but I checked and the Hebrew is clear, עַם [ʿam] means: "people, nation, compatriots, persons, members of one's people, etc.", NOT an individual.

.........Leviticus 20
.........1 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
.........2 “You shall also say to the sons of Israel: ‘Any man from the sons of Israel or from the aliens sojourning in Israel who gives
.........any of his offspring to Molech, shall surely be put to death; the people (עַם [ʿam]) of the land shall stone him with stones.
.........3 ‘I will also set My face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given some of his
.........offspring to Molech, so as to defile My sanctuary and to profane My holy name.
.........4 ‘If the people (עַם [ʿam]) of the land, however, should ever disregard that man when he gives any of his offspring to Molech,
.........so as not to put him to death,
.........5 then I Myself will set My face against that man and against his family, and I will cut off from among their people both him
.........and all those who play the harlot after him, by playing the harlot after Molech".

So as I pointed out in my earlier post, God is saying that if the "people" of Israel do not put such a man to death, then "I" will. He is NOT saying that he will put the nation of Israel to death if they fail to carry out the death penalty. God made it clear that this crime was so horrible in His eyes that anyone caught committing it would be put to death, period!

As an aside, as I did a quick study today, I learned that this is one of the passages that helped us understand that the Lord was invoking the death penalty whenever He said that someone must be "cut off" from the people in ancient Israel (read through the rest of the chapter for context).

~Deut

 

[Seeker47]

Thank you all for what has been a very enlightening discussion.

 

[Deade]

In Leviticus 20: 1-5 God establishes a punishment that is to be delivered for a sin. He then goes further and states that He will turn his back upon anyone who fails to carry out that punishment.

I am no Bible scholar but can find no other instance in Leviticus where He takes his commands to this second level, holding the community responsible if His instruction is not followed.

Are there other examples, either in Leviticus or elsewhere?

God does hold communities responsible for evil perpetrated within it borders.

I read this passage in light of the OT history of Kings and Kingdoms and God's response when they ignore God's laws. I am forgiven of my sin's by the blood of Christ Jesus but does this free us as a society from either the law or the consequences?

We can be forgiven spiritually and still suffer physically for sin carried out around us.

I acknowledge that I may have misread the scripture, that's why I asked. I can see how it can be read either way.

But I also must note that OT history is full of examples of God bringing destruction on kings and kingdoms who turn from his ways. (Solomon, Manasseh, Amom Ahaz, Judah, Benjamin and Ephraim). It seems to me that idol worship, especially sacrifices to Molech is one of the primary reasons cited for His wrath.

Again, I am no scholar and welcome the discussion.

Good points. Here are some other scriptures that shows God judging countries or communities:

Ecc. 8:11 "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil." Speaks to our very slow justice systems.

Hosea 4:1-3 "Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land. By swearing, and lying, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultery, they break out, and blood toucheth blood. Therefore shall the land mourn, and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish, with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yea, the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away." Does not all this sin remind you of some of our inner cities?

 

[garee]

These statutes were given for Israel that they would have a society very much different from the surrounding nations which were pagan and very given over to idolatry.

God placed no such burden on any of the other nations but all nations were to observe Israel and see how God blessed them for being faithful to the word of God. When Israel was not faithful the nations saw God bring judgment on Israel.

Cycle in the OT God blesses Israel, Israel turns from God, Israel judged, Israel repents, God restores Israel. Repeat and never learn the lesson.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Good point . The inward Jew was used as a representative glory as His bride. Purifying her with the word of God as distinct from the other nations.The strange woman

 

[Bladerunner]

In Leviticus 20: 1-5 God establishes a punishment that is to be delivered for a sin. He then goes further and states that He will turn his back upon anyone who fails to carry out that punishment.

I am no Bible scholar but can find no other instance in Leviticus where He takes his commands to this second level, holding the community responsible if His instruction is not followed.

Are there other examples, either in Leviticus or elsewhere?

Seeker47... It is all through the Bible. Read at least the first 13 chapters of Isaiah and you will see an ebb and flow of the people following GOD and the punishments when they did not. In the first 13 chapters the Assyrians conquered the Nothern Kingdom. The people were assimilated within the Assyrian population to be lost forever. The Northern Kingdom had gone from a God fearing nation to an idolatrous nation. The southern Kingdom was also conquered some time later and spent 70 years under Babylon slavery. WHY? Because, the Lord GOD told them to keep the sabbath every week. The failed to do so for 70 week. Therefore they were under the Babylon rulers for 70 week of years. (70 years).

Does this help?

Blade

 

[Seeker47]

Seeker47... It is all through the Bible. Read at least the first 13 chapters of Isaiah and you will see an ebb and flow of the people following GOD and the punishments when they did not. In the first 13 chapters the Assyrians conquered the Nothern Kingdom. The people were assimilated within the Assyrian population to be lost forever. The Northern Kingdom had gone from a God fearing nation to an idolatrous nation. The southern Kingdom was also conquered some time later and spent 70 years under Babylon slavery. WHY? Because, the Lord GOD told them to keep the sabbath every week. The failed to do so for 70 week. Therefore they were under the Babylon rulers for 70 week of years. (70 years).

Does this help?

Blade

I will read and respond.

Thanks

 

[Seeker47]

Blade,
I finished the chapters you recommended. They also lead me to relevant sections of Kings and Chronicles.

Going back to my original question, I am finding it increasingly difficult to believe the community escapes consequences when it ignores Gods commands. Further, sacrificing to Molech specifically places this burden on a tolerant society, at their peril.

 

[Deade]

Blade,
I finished the chapters you recommended. They also lead me to relevant sections of Kings and Chronicles.

Going back to my original question, I am finding it increasingly difficult to believe the community escapes consequences when it ignores Gods commands. Further, sacrificing to Molech specifically places this burden on a tolerant society, at their peril.

Seeker, what is so hard to understand the difference between physical and spiritual punishments. The community is judged by what we allow to continue within it borders. This judgment is purely physical. We will suffer the consequences of physical punishment in our physical being. We could be saved or not spiritually but still suffer with our families physically. Got it?

 

[Blik]

Seeker, what is so hard to understand the difference between physical and spiritual punishments. The community is judged by what we allow to continue within it borders. This judgment is purely physical. We will suffer the consequences of physical punishment in our physical being. We could be saved or not spiritually but still suffer with our families physically. Got it?

I don't think that we can say of any scripture "that is physical only" or "that is only spiritual". Scripture was first given in the ancient Hebrew language, a language that has both physical and spiritual meanings for each word and even each letter.

The first chapters of the book of Leviticus gave us laws that governed Israel, and now starting with the 20th chapter we are going to be told of the amount of importance God gives each of these instructions.

Molech who went by other names in other languages was a god who asked those who recognized him to murder children. Even today the murdering of children is punishable by death in the secular world. The death that was to result from this god was both spiritual and physical.

Demons gave the world this god, and true to demon ways it is a copy of the way of God, made of the same kind of lies Satan gave to Eve. Demons give the same promises to us today, just doesn't ask us to murder.