Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,025
4,444
113
Just for info purposes....the word translated hypocrite comes from two Greek words and means opinionated one....... ;)
I never knew that.
A word that comes from two Greek words, well I never.
Oh well never mind, or is it nevermind:cool:
Joshing with you bro.

Thanks for the info, it has made me think a bit.

I always thought it meant accusing someone of something that we ourselves do.
Does it carry that connotation?
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
I do follow His instructions. I believe in Him and I love as He loved me. This is the entire Law fulfilled.

Love doesn’t lie, cheat, murder, steal, etc.

And you would have no problem with my statement - except you think the Sabbath is still necessary.

And you have wisely discerned that loving people includes everything in the Law, but observing the Sabbath.

So some of you ignore Paul’s letters to keep your interpretation. And you massively quote the same Scriptures out of context as a result.

And I understand why now, because Paul wrote about 2/3 of the Bible. And when you ignore him you have a lot fewer Scriptures to quote.

Here’s Jesus on the Sabbath. “One greater than the Sabbath is here.” And we rest in Him, He is our Rest.

The Jews also sought another rest apart from Him. Going back to the Temple sacrifices. And now the Temple is destroyed.

Paul left it all. Calling it dung compared to knowing Him.

He alone - Christ alone - the sum of all spiritual things. He is our exceedingly great reward.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Scriptual fact is the "rest in MEssiah" is in His Kingdom any who claim to be in that rest now are making up their own definition of that rest, Scripture clearly states:

Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Mat 11:27-30, "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father. And no one fully knows the Son except the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father, except the Son and those whom YHWH wills the Son to reveal. Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light"

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

Jeremiah 6:16-17, “Thus said יהוה, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find rest for yourselves.” But they said, ‘We do not walk in it.’ “And I raised up watchmen over you, and said, ‘Listen to a voice of the trumpet!’ But they said, ‘We do not listen.’
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Hebrews 10:16-18 is a quote from Jeremiah 31 thus:
Translation matters not, the original manuscript says "Torah" now this will make people freak out, no no it cant be, yeah well that is what it says. His Toran in our hearts.:

Jeremiah 31:33
Text Analysis
StrTranslitHebrewEnglishMorph
3588 [e]כִּ֣יforConj
2063 [e]zōṯזֹ֣אתthisPro
1285 [e]hab-bə-rîṯהַבְּרִ֡ית[shall be] the covenantNoun
834 [e]’ă-šerאֲשֶׁ֣רthatPrt
3772 [e]’eḵ-rōṯאֶכְרֹת֩I will makeVerb
854 [e]’eṯ-אֶת־withPrep
1004 [e]bêṯבֵּ֨יתthe houseNoun
3478 [e]yiś-rā-’êlיִשְׂרָאֵ֜לof IsraelNoun
310 [e]’a-ḥă-rêאַחֲרֵ֨יAfterAdv
3117 [e]hay-yā-mîmהַיָּמִ֤יםdaysNoun
1992 [e]hā-hêmהָהֵם֙thosePro
5002 [e]nə-’um-נְאֻם־saidNoun
3068 [e]Yah-weh,יְהוָ֔הthe LORDNoun
5414 [e]nā-ṯat-tîנָתַ֤תִּיI will putVerb
853 [e]’eṯ-אֶת־ - Acc
8451 [e]tō-w-rā-ṯîתּֽוֹרָתִי֙my lawNoun


Psalms 105:6-10, “O seed of Aḇraham His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is יהוה our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations, The covenant He made with Abraham, And His oath to Yitsḥaq, And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law, To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.”

Jeremiah 31:33, “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Yisra’yl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people.”

If we let the MEssiah tell us nothing has chaged from the Law:

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

SO how is it different?

the levitical priesthood is abolished and the priesthood of Yahshua after the order of the malak zadiq is established forever, and the Law is transferred under Yahshua mediation, this is written in Hebrews:


Hebrews 7:11-12, “Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed (#G3331), there is made of necessity a change (#G3346) also of the law.”

Notice it is the same word in English “change” but in the Greek they are 2 different words?

“For the priesthood being changed (#G3331), there is made of necessity a change (#G3346) also of the law.”

If we only look at the English it is easy to misunderstand what the writer of Hebrews is seeking to tell us. Lets take a deeper look at the difference between these words:


“For the priesthood being changed (#G3331)”

“changed” is word #G3331 μετάθεσις metathesis (me-ta'-the-sis) n., transposition, i.e. transferral (to heaven), disestablishment (of a law). [from G3346], KJV: change, removing, translation, Root(s): G3346

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)


#G3331 μετάθεσις metathesis; 1) transfer: from one place to another 2) to change 2a) of things instituted or established

As in the priesthood on earth, the Levite priesthood has been abolished, and the Priesthood in the heavens, carried out by Yahshua is established. This “change” or “metathesis” is a removal of one that is replaced by another.

“there is made of necessity a change (#G3346) also of the law.”

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From G3346; transposition, that is, transferral (to heaven), disestablishment (of a law):—change, removing, translation.

“change” is word #G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi (me-ta-tiy'-thee-miy) v., 1. to transfer., 2. (literally) to transport., 3. (by implication) to exchange., 4. (reflexively) to change sides. [from G3326 and G5087], KJV: carry over, change, remove, translate, turn, Root(s): G3326, G5087

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
#G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi; 1) to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other) 1a) to transfer 1b) to change 1c) to transfer one's self or suffer one's self to be transferred 1c1) to go or pass over 1c2) to fall away or desert from one person or thing to another

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
#G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi; From G3326 and G5087; to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:—carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.

As in the Law has been transferred, not mediated by Levites but mediated by Yahshua the High Priest. This “change” or “metatithemi” is a transferral.
Torah is simply teaching. Nothing to freak out about. He teaches us directly.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Scriptual fact is the "rest in MEssiah" is in His Kingdom any who claim to be in that rest now are making up their own definition of that rest, Scripture clearly states:

Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Mat 11:27-30, "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father. And no one fully knows the Son except the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father, except the Son and those whom YHWH wills the Son to reveal. Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light"

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

Jeremiah 6:16-17, “Thus said יהוה, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find rest for yourselves.” But they said, ‘We do not walk in it.’ “And I raised up watchmen over you, and said, ‘Listen to a voice of the trumpet!’ But they said, ‘We do not listen.’
Interesting because Jesus also says the Kingdom is in us. Or did you forget that Scripture?

You have to understand the Kingdom of God is not simply a place.

The authority of the King is His Kingdom. When we obey Him we are in the Kingdom.

Thy Kingdom come... thy will be done. This is also why Scripture teaches the Kingdom of God is IN the Holy Spirit.

“The Kingdom of God is not a matter of eat or drink, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit”
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
The purpose of the Law was to lead us to faith in Christ. Our faith establishes it.
AMEN....the simplicity in Christ......by faith we acknowledge the righteousness of Christ applied unto our life....the righteousness which is WITHOUT the LAW....

MAN..so many miss the fact that the law is for the lawless...CHRIST 100% fulfilled the law...he had NO need of the LAW to judge him...he was made under it, born under it, walked it, fulfilled it without GUILT or SIN and it is that RIGHTEOUSNESS which is applied unto us and PUT to our ACCOUNT by faith without the deeds/works of the law....HENCE our eternal justification and positional sanctification in Christ.....

The workers for, sinless perfectionists, Pharisees, lawyers, Cainologists etc. will never grasp this truth as long as they walk in their religion.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Torah is simply teaching. Nothing to freak out about. He teaches us directly.
I agree and honestly Im delight to hear you say this, may we all accept His teaching and bind it to our souls!

John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Interesting because Jesus also says the Kingdom is in us. Or did you forget that Scripture?

You have to understand the Kingdom of God is not simply a place.

The authority of the King is His Kingdom. When we obey Him we are in the Kingdom.

Thy Kingdom come... thy will be done. This is why the Kingdom of God is IN the Holy Spirit.

“The Kingdom of God is not a matter of eat or drink, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit”
So do you believe there is a coming eternal Kingdom?

And do you believe if there is that it will be different than anything we experience in the flase?

I do on both accounts. Also I you are implying the Kingdom within IS the rest you are ignoring Rev 14:12-13. You would have to explain that passage to me if you want me to see it any different.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Scriptual fact is the "rest in MEssiah" is in His Kingdom any who claim to be in that rest now are making up their own definition of that rest, Scripture clearly states:

Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Mat 11:27-30, "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father. And no one fully knows the Son except the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father, except the Son and those whom YHWH wills the Son to reveal. Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light"

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

Jeremiah 6:16-17, “Thus said יהוה, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find rest for yourselves.” But they said, ‘We do not walk in it.’ “And I raised up watchmen over you, and said, ‘Listen to a voice of the trumpet!’ But they said, ‘We do not listen.’
The ironic thing is the Scriptures you’re quoting are exactly what you’re doing. You are refusing to find rest for yourself in the Lord. And as such you’ve ignored much of Scripture thinking it disagrees with itself.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
I agree and honestly Im delight to hear you say this, may we all accept His teaching and bind it to our souls!

John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."
Yes I agree. His Spirit teaches us directly. Holy Spirit is our Teacher. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives Life.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
The ironic thing is the Scriptures you’re quoting are exactly what you’re doing. You are refusing to find rest for yourself in the Lord. And as such you’ve ignored much of Scripture thinking it disagrees with itself.
Ahh ok, so not assessment of what that Scripture means...
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
I never knew that.
A word that comes from two Greek words, well I never.
Oh well never mind, or is it nevermind:cool:
Joshing with you bro.

Thanks for the info, it has made me think a bit.

I always thought it meant accusing someone of something that we ourselves do.
Does it carry that connotation?
It has taken on that application....and like I told Undergrace the following in my view is the best way to view the overall application...

It carries the idea of an answer, or opinionated response....and within that guise is a fake or fraud......

Notice how the Pharisees always came back with their view, opinion, answer which also aligned with their fraudulent stance for God....
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
So do you believe there is a coming eternal Kingdom?

And do you believe if there is that it will be different than anything we experience in the flase?

I do on both accounts. Also I you are implying the Kingdom within IS the rest you are ignoring Rev 14:12-13. You would have to explain that passage to me if you want me to see it any different.
Yes the Kingdom as a place is when the physical world comes fully under His dominion.

But we as sons of God are lead by His Spirit now.

First the Spirit. This is conversion. His Spirit and ours are joined together. We die to self. And we are reborn in Him. We are in Christ at this stage.

Yet, the process of walking/following/ being taught by the Spirit is next.

This is the dominion of God aligning our Soul. It has a lot of names: Repentance, renewing of the mind, discipleship, sanctification, growing up in Christ...

But there will be a time when the Earth is replaced with a new one. And the Kingdom will be expressed over all physical creation.

The Kingdom is and also will be.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Yes the Kingdom as a place is when the physical world comes fully under His dominion.

But we as sons of God are lead by His Spirit now.

First the Spirit. This is conversion. His Spirit and ours are joined together. We die to self. And we are reborn in Him. We are in Christ at this stage.

Yet, the process of walking/following/ being taught by the Spirit is next.

This is the dominion of God aligning our Soul. It has a lot of names: Repentance, renewing of the mind, discipleship, sanctification, growing up in Christ...

But there will be a time when the Earth is replaced with a new one. And the Kingdom will be expressed over all physical creation.

The Kingdom is and also will be.
I would say I generally agree with this. I think what most say is "reborn" is actually led by the Soirit and reborn is being transformed into a eternal Spirit body..

And want to add this passage does indeed exist and have a meaning:

Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

and while physicaly in the flesh if we are led by the Spirit of Yah and to be in Messiah and Messiah in us:

1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Ahh ok, so not assessment of what that Scripture means...
Well, that’s fair, if you would discuss passages, but so far I haven’t seen you willing to discuss Galatians. Or 2 Corinthians 3. I’m fine with discussing interpretations, that’s completely fair.

But ignoring them and Scriptures that disagree with our interpretation is a great error.

Because Scripture is to correct us. The Spirit of God speaks to us through it. But if we ignore where it disagrees with us. We hold our interpretation above its correction.

And God’s purpose is to conform us into the Image of His Son. This is the function of correction and discipleship to be conformed. And partake in His holiness.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Well, that’s fair, if you would discuss passages, but so far I haven’t seen you willing to discuss Galatians. Or 2 Corinthians 3. I’m fine with discussing interpretations, that’s completly fair.

But ignoring them and Scriptures that disagree with our interpretation is a great error.

Because Scripture is to correct us. The Spirit of God speaks to us through it. But if we ignore where it disagrees with us. We hold our interpretation above it’s correction.

And God’s purpose is to conform us into the Image of His Son. This is the function of correction and discipleship to be conformed. And partake in His holiness.
Well I asked a question about a specific passage, no assessment was given. We have talked on this matter before, like a mentioned yesterday I typed out a multi post response that took me over 45 mins and you in 3 mins just said, nope with no real assessment... Im open to talk about all Scripture, but I dont think one can totally ignore a Scripture and quote another one to "prove" their point, other passages can be used but if one is refusing to acknoledge and assess the original I dont se this as an honest conversation.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,342
6,696
113
Well I asked a question about a specific passage, no assessment was given. We have talked on this matter before, like a mentioned yesterday I typed out a multi post response that took me over 45 mins and you in 3 mins just said, nope with no real assessment... Im open to talk about all Scripture, but I dont think one can totally ignore a Scripture and quote another one to "prove" their point, other passages can be used but if one is refusing to acknoledge and assess the original I dont se this as an honest conversation.
you mean like you do not want to talk about 1st John , in which John said the commands we are to keep is believe in the name of the Son , and love one another. nothing about Sabbath, your idol.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Well I asked a question about a specific passage, no assessment was given. We have talked on this matter before, like a mentioned yesterday I typed out a multi post response that took me over 45 mins and you in 3 mins just said, nope with no real assessment... Im open to talk about all Scripture, but I dont think one can totally ignore a Scripture and quote another one to "prove" their point, other passages can be used but if one is refusing to acknoledge and assess the original I dont se this as an honest conversation.
I remember that time, I did that because before I had posted several long replies to you. And I didn’t feel you discussed them.

And then you posted the same Scriptures I had discussed with you. So I felt we were going nowhere. And only God could intervene at that point.

I try to be as fruitful with my time as possible. As I’m sure you do too. But I didn’t agree with you and you didn’t agree with me.

And that’s fine, I believe I left you with well wishes and thanked you for the discussion.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
I remember that time, I did that because before I had posted several long replies to you. And I didn’t feel you discussed them.

And then you posted the same Scriptures I had discussed with you. So I felt we were going nowhere. And only God could intervene at that point.

I try to be as fruitful with my time as possible. As I’m sure you do too. But I didn’t agree with you and you didn’t agree with me.

And that’s fine, I believe I left you with well wishes and thanked you for the discussion.
I respect your view, I do not think it is accurate, as we went back and forth for a while in polite discussion/debate, then you asked me some questions about my belief and I told you it would take a while but I will lay them out (paraphrase), I did then you posted in 3 mins I was wrong, I dont even know how you could have read that so fast. Also before I posted I tolf you Im almost done, because it took so long and you replied something to the effect of a positive manner of assessing it, but it change once it was posted.

I do feel it was a little messed up, but I want to say I by no means think your bad or anything like that, I just put a lot of effort into explaing with my words and Scripture why I believe what I do.

Could you tell me now, as I also asked today, what you understanding of Rev 14:12-13 is?

we could start there and fully expound on that before we move on?