The Richman and Lazarus a parable
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I have previously related a story about how I accidentally swallowed bleach. I should have died, or at least been greatly injured. I suffered no injury beyond fear and my breath taken away for a moment.
I don't believe we are to tempt or test the Lord in anything beyond giving. That is the only Scripture I'm aware of that God says to do so. Found in Malachi I believe.
I don't believe we are to tempt or test the Lord in anything beyond giving. That is the only Scripture I'm aware of that God says to do so. Found in Malachi I believe.
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I agree. this does away with your objection (4) in the OP.
taking this further, the rich man didn't have what God calls 'life' even while he was 'alive' in the flesh. no one who does not have Christ has life, regardless of their physical bodies having beating hearts and their physical brains showing electrical activity, and existence and life are not the same thing.
taking this further, the rich man didn't have what God calls 'life' even while he was 'alive' in the flesh. no one who does not have Christ has life, regardless of their physical bodies having beating hearts and their physical brains showing electrical activity, and existence and life are not the same thing.
There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between torture (by evil human beings) and the just punishment of sinners by God the the righteous Judge.
Hades (mistakenly called "hell" in the KJV) is only a foretaste of the eternal torments of the Lake of Fire (Gehenna, also called "hell"). And all these things are in Scripture to warn the lost that they must obey the Gospel while they have an opportunity to do so on earth. God is not willing that any should perish (suffer the torments of Hell) but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Hence He commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).
The rich man wanted his brothers to be spared the torments of Hades because that was his excruciating experience after enjoying all the luxuries of this life. But Christ pointed to the Scriptures, and said that if they would not believe Moses, neither would they believe if one rose from the dead.
Hades (mistakenly called "hell" in the KJV) is only a foretaste of the eternal torments of the Lake of Fire (Gehenna, also called "hell"). And all these things are in Scripture to warn the lost that they must obey the Gospel while they have an opportunity to do so on earth. God is not willing that any should perish (suffer the torments of Hell) but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Hence He commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).
The rich man wanted his brothers to be spared the torments of Hades because that was his excruciating experience after enjoying all the luxuries of this life. But Christ pointed to the Scriptures, and said that if they would not believe Moses, neither would they believe if one rose from the dead.
What does *no one has ascended to heaven as yet* have to do with the torments of Hell (Q) And you have also misunderstood John 3:13 (but that is another topic).
And what exactly do Christians gain by calling this narrative a *parable* (Q) What that shows is UNBELIEF -- that the words of Christ mean nothing to you.
And what exactly do Christians gain by calling this narrative a *parable* (Q) What that shows is UNBELIEF -- that the words of Christ mean nothing to you.
It was just a lesson that Jesus was passing to the listeners and the names whether real or not were not that important in the lesson because none of the listeners knew Lazarus or the rich man. It is the way the story is told that we conclude it is a parable.
People in heaven will not be communicating with people in hell. And if there's a chasm between them, how does anyone think that a drop of water will reach them in the lake of fire with many people?
People in heaven will not be communicating with people in hell. And if there's a chasm between them, how does anyone think that a drop of water will reach them in the lake of fire with many people?
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It looks like you have not grasped Christ s teaching on Sheol-Hades. Before the resurrection of Christ, the bodies of the dead went into graves while their souls and spirits went to Sheol-Hades, which is located in the *heart of the earth* or *the lower parts of the earth* (also called the netherworld). Within Sheol-Hades there were two *compartments* or sections separated by a huge chasm (o gulf) which could not be crossed.
The unsaved dead were in a place of torment (where the Rich Man was), while the righteous dead (the OT saints) were in a place of rest (called *Abraham s bosom* metaphorically, where Lazarus was) because Abraham is the primary example of those who were justified by grace through faith, and thus deemed righteous.
Christ (His soul and spirit) went to Sheol-Hades for three days and three nights after His crucifixion, while His body lay in His tomb (sepulchre). After His resurrection, Christ took all the OT saints to Heaven (the New Jerusalem) where they were perfected -- *the spirits of just men made perfect*.
However, all the unsaved dead continued to go to Hades, and they will still do so until the Great White Throne Judgment.
The unsaved dead were in a place of torment (where the Rich Man was), while the righteous dead (the OT saints) were in a place of rest (called *Abraham s bosom* metaphorically, where Lazarus was) because Abraham is the primary example of those who were justified by grace through faith, and thus deemed righteous.
Christ (His soul and spirit) went to Sheol-Hades for three days and three nights after His crucifixion, while His body lay in His tomb (sepulchre). After His resurrection, Christ took all the OT saints to Heaven (the New Jerusalem) where they were perfected -- *the spirits of just men made perfect*.
However, all the unsaved dead continued to go to Hades, and they will still do so until the Great White Throne Judgment.
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Hello Carl11
forgive me, but your claim of Lazarus being spiritually poor is not supported in the context. In fact, that his spirit went to the placed of comfort would demonstrate that he was spiritually rich. First of all the actual name of Lazarus is being used, as well as Moses, Abraham and the name of the literal location of Hades. This is not consistent with parables as a parable uses symbolism to represent what is literal. The context supports the reference to Lazarus as being literally poor i.e. lacking the basic requirements for life which is supported by the fact that he is laid at the gate of the rich man longing to be fed from the rich man's table, which would demonstrate his lack of sustenance. Lazarus' material poorness is also in opposition to the rich man living in luxury every day. The context then demonstrates that this is referring to the lack of basic material life necessities of Lazarus and the material richness of the rich man.
The above also does not support your claim in that, for anyone being in Hades in torment in flame, any relief would be greatly desired. As Abraham said to the rich man, "remember in your life time you received you good things and Lazarus received bad things? Now he is comforted and you are in torment."
After cross-reverencing and comparing all the related scriptures, that once a person dies the grace of God is no longer in operation for that person, as their record is sealed. Consider what Jesus said to the religious leaders of His time:
"Then He told them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
What is the reward for sin?
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
The following is the state of death in the lake of fire:
"And a third angel followed them, calling out in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
Regarding the above, I would point out that, in order to be tormented in the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels, the individual would have to be existing in order to experience that torment in their presence. Likewise, the scripture states that "the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever and that they will have no rest day or night, which also demonstrates that the individual must exist in order for their smoke of their torment to ascend up forever and to have no rest day or night.
Your error is assuming that Abraham and Lazarus are in the third heaven, when the scripture does not support this. Both the rich man and Lazarus died and their bodies were buried, but we see their spirits conscious and aware both being in Sheol/Hades. The area that Abraham and Lazarus were in was separated from the area where the rich man was. Abraham goes on to say that between us and you a great chasm has been fixed so that no one can cross over from either side, which again would demonstrate that both areas were in the same location, i.e. Hades. How in the world expositors come to the conclusion that Abraham and Lazarus are in heaven escapes me, as there is absolutely nothing in the context that would suggest that.
I have heard this false apologetic regarding Christ speaking only in parables many times, which false teachers do in order to take away the true meaning. The reference to Jesus speaking in parables was to that generation of Israel in fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Then the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Why do You speak to the people in parables?”
He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:
‘Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.’
In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled:
‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has grown callous;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn,
and I would heal them.’
But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."
Notice in the scripture above, the disciples ask "why do you speak to the people in parables," which would be referring to that generation of Israel and the not those who believe in Christ. In support of this, when Jesus answers them He says "The knowledge of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you" i.e. the church. But regarding the Lord speaking in parables, it was in fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah which the Lord then quotes. Therefore, Jesus did not speak to us in parables and so we can know what the word of God is saying and God means what He says. Therefore, when God uses the supporting words of torment, punishment, eternal, everlasting, forever and ever, no rest day or night, that's exactly what He means.
Really Carl11? Tell me what you think of the following:
"Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire, a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand. When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand, they said to each other, “This man must be a murderer; for though he escaped from the sea, the goddess Justice has not allowed him to live.” But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects."
forgive me, but your claim of Lazarus being spiritually poor is not supported in the context. In fact, that his spirit went to the placed of comfort would demonstrate that he was spiritually rich. First of all the actual name of Lazarus is being used, as well as Moses, Abraham and the name of the literal location of Hades. This is not consistent with parables as a parable uses symbolism to represent what is literal. The context supports the reference to Lazarus as being literally poor i.e. lacking the basic requirements for life which is supported by the fact that he is laid at the gate of the rich man longing to be fed from the rich man's table, which would demonstrate his lack of sustenance. Lazarus' material poorness is also in opposition to the rich man living in luxury every day. The context then demonstrates that this is referring to the lack of basic material life necessities of Lazarus and the material richness of the rich man.
The above also does not support your claim in that, for anyone being in Hades in torment in flame, any relief would be greatly desired. As Abraham said to the rich man, "remember in your life time you received you good things and Lazarus received bad things? Now he is comforted and you are in torment."
After cross-reverencing and comparing all the related scriptures, that once a person dies the grace of God is no longer in operation for that person, as their record is sealed. Consider what Jesus said to the religious leaders of His time:
"Then He told them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
What is the reward for sin?
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
The following is the state of death in the lake of fire:
"And a third angel followed them, calling out in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
Regarding the above, I would point out that, in order to be tormented in the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels, the individual would have to be existing in order to experience that torment in their presence. Likewise, the scripture states that "the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever and that they will have no rest day or night, which also demonstrates that the individual must exist in order for their smoke of their torment to ascend up forever and to have no rest day or night.
Your error is assuming that Abraham and Lazarus are in the third heaven, when the scripture does not support this. Both the rich man and Lazarus died and their bodies were buried, but we see their spirits conscious and aware both being in Sheol/Hades. The area that Abraham and Lazarus were in was separated from the area where the rich man was. Abraham goes on to say that between us and you a great chasm has been fixed so that no one can cross over from either side, which again would demonstrate that both areas were in the same location, i.e. Hades. How in the world expositors come to the conclusion that Abraham and Lazarus are in heaven escapes me, as there is absolutely nothing in the context that would suggest that.
I have heard this false apologetic regarding Christ speaking only in parables many times, which false teachers do in order to take away the true meaning. The reference to Jesus speaking in parables was to that generation of Israel in fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Then the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Why do You speak to the people in parables?”
He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:
‘Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.’
In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled:
‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has grown callous;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn,
and I would heal them.’
But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."
Notice in the scripture above, the disciples ask "why do you speak to the people in parables," which would be referring to that generation of Israel and the not those who believe in Christ. In support of this, when Jesus answers them He says "The knowledge of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you" i.e. the church. But regarding the Lord speaking in parables, it was in fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah which the Lord then quotes. Therefore, Jesus did not speak to us in parables and so we can know what the word of God is saying and God means what He says. Therefore, when God uses the supporting words of torment, punishment, eternal, everlasting, forever and ever, no rest day or night, that's exactly what He means.
Really Carl11? Tell me what you think of the following:
"Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire, a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand. When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand, they said to each other, “This man must be a murderer; for though he escaped from the sea, the goddess Justice has not allowed him to live.” But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects."
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Oxford dictionary is the not authority of God as it is written in respect to unseen spiritual matters .
Because someone did not write; "this is a parable" in a title it does not mean a parable is not in view .
Did you look at the history true parables in the two different versions of the ten commandments , both represents the eternal rest we will receive in the new heavens and earth . One using the creation account the other the exit from bondage of Egypt to represent this world under the pharaoh to represent the father of lies led into the promised land as the promised eternal rest we will receive.
Parables used to preach the gospel are used the hide the spiritual understanding from the lost in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand . The time of refomation came when the veil was rent the suffering of Christ revealed in whom we rest in.
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1:11
It is how the good news is preached throughout scripture . Using the prescription found in 2 Corinthians 4:18 for rightly dividing the word of God.
Do be afraid to search the scripture as for silver or gold its how he hides the spiritual understanding from the lost.
And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.Mark 4:10-12
Because someone did not write; "this is a parable" in a title it does not mean a parable is not in view .
Did you look at the history true parables in the two different versions of the ten commandments , both represents the eternal rest we will receive in the new heavens and earth . One using the creation account the other the exit from bondage of Egypt to represent this world under the pharaoh to represent the father of lies led into the promised land as the promised eternal rest we will receive.
Parables used to preach the gospel are used the hide the spiritual understanding from the lost in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand . The time of refomation came when the veil was rent the suffering of Christ revealed in whom we rest in.
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1:11
It is how the good news is preached throughout scripture . Using the prescription found in 2 Corinthians 4:18 for rightly dividing the word of God.
Do be afraid to search the scripture as for silver or gold its how he hides the spiritual understanding from the lost.
And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.Mark 4:10-12
Unbelief no faith requires to hear a parable?
The account is used as a historically true parable. The word 8 has its place to represent the mercy of God . Next time he will destroy the whole world and not just a flood to represent temporal judgment .
We need the 2 Corinthians 4;18 20/20 doctor of our soul prescription (scripture) when looking for the hidden understanding called hidden manna in Revelation .Its how he give the churches( the true believers) ears to hear what the Spirit is saying. Those who not receive the spiritual understand, they remain deaf .
Isaiah 29:18And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
What does the Ark represent as a metaphor in that parable or why two by two ?
The 20/20 prescription needed to rightly divide the parables .
while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen "are temporal"; but the things which are not seen "are eternal".2 Corinthians 4:18
The account is used as a historically true parable. The word 8 has its place to represent the mercy of God . Next time he will destroy the whole world and not just a flood to represent temporal judgment .
We need the 2 Corinthians 4;18 20/20 doctor of our soul prescription (scripture) when looking for the hidden understanding called hidden manna in Revelation .Its how he give the churches( the true believers) ears to hear what the Spirit is saying. Those who not receive the spiritual understand, they remain deaf .
Isaiah 29:18And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
What does the Ark represent as a metaphor in that parable or why two by two ?
The 20/20 prescription needed to rightly divide the parables .
while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen "are temporal"; but the things which are not seen "are eternal".2 Corinthians 4:18
Jesus does not say it's a parable. It is in no way structured as one. And is not meant to be one.
. He might not say look its is a parable verbatim but gives us the prescription to understand them. Of course it is structured as one .
like for instance in the book called Revelation that uses all the metaphors gathered through the scripture to give us the signified language of God.
Not only did he inspire it to John but also signified it .
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified" it by his angel unto his servant John:Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)
The terms signified and signifier are most commonly related to semiotics, which is defined by Oxford Dictionaries Online as "the study of signs and symbols and their use or interpretation". like for instance the many metaphors found in the Revelation 20 parable .
As the hidden gospel revealed its brings joy. To some that are new at it, it makes them uncomfortable.
I have no problem believing scriptures used as parables or hidden manna.
Manna God's design, simply means "What is it"? It is used to discourage the idea that we are familiar with God who is not a man as us. It was famiaarity with his own by which his own rejected him .Showing us that familiarity can breed hatred, contempt and murder as in out of sight out of mind. (Not walking by the faith) the spiritual understanding hid in parables.
It would seem you might not be comfortable using the signified language . I can give you another example using another historically true parable . to help us understand the spiritual meaning of not one jot or tittle will pass from the law of God until the new heavens and earth come into view .
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled
Moses used to represent the law of God as the unseen law giver is shown not entering the promised land typified as the new heavenly Jerusalem the bride of Christ. When told to strike the rock representing Christ once as the father did require him to drink the wrath of those he came to save once.
Moses using the rod of Arron used to represent the authority of God not seen as those who rebelled against it .... struck it twice . The water came out that represented the gospel but again Moses was prevented from entering the promised land as a figure of speech , a parable
Parable or just a lucky coincident?
Numbers 20:10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?
. He might not say look its is a parable verbatim but gives us the prescription to understand them. Of course it is structured as one .
like for instance in the book called Revelation that uses all the metaphors gathered through the scripture to give us the signified language of God.
Not only did he inspire it to John but also signified it .
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified" it by his angel unto his servant John:Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)
The terms signified and signifier are most commonly related to semiotics, which is defined by Oxford Dictionaries Online as "the study of signs and symbols and their use or interpretation". like for instance the many metaphors found in the Revelation 20 parable .
As the hidden gospel revealed its brings joy. To some that are new at it, it makes them uncomfortable.
I have no problem believing scriptures used as parables or hidden manna.
Manna God's design, simply means "What is it"? It is used to discourage the idea that we are familiar with God who is not a man as us. It was famiaarity with his own by which his own rejected him .Showing us that familiarity can breed hatred, contempt and murder as in out of sight out of mind. (Not walking by the faith) the spiritual understanding hid in parables.
It would seem you might not be comfortable using the signified language . I can give you another example using another historically true parable . to help us understand the spiritual meaning of not one jot or tittle will pass from the law of God until the new heavens and earth come into view .
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled
Moses used to represent the law of God as the unseen law giver is shown not entering the promised land typified as the new heavenly Jerusalem the bride of Christ. When told to strike the rock representing Christ once as the father did require him to drink the wrath of those he came to save once.
Moses using the rod of Arron used to represent the authority of God not seen as those who rebelled against it .... struck it twice . The water came out that represented the gospel but again Moses was prevented from entering the promised land as a figure of speech , a parable
Parable or just a lucky coincident?
Numbers 20:10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?