Child birth with not a bit of pain
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Thanks for the link, blanche. I looked into it, which gave some insight into some Iranian women's (14) childbirth. That is interesting, but to be more realistic and meaningful/relevant to us, it may help if we had studies from our cultures (and faith) or even case studies that may not be that easy to acquire (i'm not sure) from moms who esp. gave birth outside of hospitals who can and do give birth without anesthesia, even from other cultures. The authors saying that some mothers fear while on labor that their child may be a girl (and not boy as their husbands wanted) is trigger enough for tension, wc promotes pain at such critical time-- instead of the mother getting support and encouragement.
Managed to search, but it took a while to locate seoulsearch's thread on Less known biblical gems she started in 2016. It was there i shared some, let me stress notes from an old notebook, transcribed from abbreviated notes. I could copy some posts here, but hope others would take the time and effort to be unbiased in dealing with such an important matter in the life of women and mothers, but often set aside due to so much misleading 'history,' misinformation, and as some say, mistranslation. No, please dont think i'm saying you personally are biased, for we all learned and believed certain things as we grew up, thru the years... until the Lord gave/gives us understanding. I dont claim to be an expert either, as this is just one way God let me experience His love and goodness in childbirth and humbly share what the enemy does not want people to know about, or accept.
Link is https://christianchat.com/christian-singles-forum/share-a-lesser-known-biblical-gem.131703/page-3
My post... Feb 25, 2016
#52
Did you know that childbirth in Bible times ws so different from what we do and know now? I have to dig passages but this paragraph from a natural childbirth book first published in '64:
Samuel Zwener, an early missionary to the Arabs, says that Arab women didn’t have painful deliveries until after their society had been adversely affected by Western culture. Even when trekking across the desert, an ‘Arab woman simply dropped behind the caravan when her labor began. After giving birth to her infant…she would walk (sometimes for many hours) to overtake the caravan, carrying her baby. The experiences of the Heb. Women of the Pentateuch were surely similar to these, since they were of the same Semitic origin and culture.'
The Joy of Natural Childbirth by Helen Wessel — Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists
Feb 25, 2016
#55
mar09 said:
Chap. 6, p/53
You feel pain in labor when the muscles of the abdominal wall are kept tense while the uterus is rising during contractions. When a mother does this-- usually w/o realizing she is doing it, the aching in these muscles increases with each contraction and soon spreads throughout the muscles of the pelvic area, making them ache, across the muscles of the lower back and hips, and even down into the thighs, so she literally 'aches all over' during labor, with increasing intensity...But if u learn to relax properly, letting all ur muscles become 'limp,' this brings miraculous relief, no matter how intense the contractions...
Indonesian women would just leave their work in the fields for an hour or so to bear their child, and shortly afterwards would be back at work again..they accept childbirth as a perfectly normal process.
Sarah, bearing a child when she was an old, old woman, who yet said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me. (Gen. 21.6)
Margaret Mead, the anthropologist, says majority of women suffer severe pain in childbirth, or accept giving birth matter of factly, depending on the culture in which they live. She says that pain, when it occurs, isn’t due to the physiological birth process, but to the attitudes toward birth which a woman has ‘learned’ from her culture… it is perhaps not without significance that in those Polynesian societies where the male participates in his wife’s delivery as a husband… there is an extremely simple, uncomplicated attitude towards birth; the women don’t scream, but instead work…
There is nothing (in the Bible) which says that women are meant to suffer pain when they bear a child.
Incidentally it is we mothers who can really promote natural childbirth.
Managed to search, but it took a while to locate seoulsearch's thread on Less known biblical gems she started in 2016. It was there i shared some, let me stress notes from an old notebook, transcribed from abbreviated notes. I could copy some posts here, but hope others would take the time and effort to be unbiased in dealing with such an important matter in the life of women and mothers, but often set aside due to so much misleading 'history,' misinformation, and as some say, mistranslation. No, please dont think i'm saying you personally are biased, for we all learned and believed certain things as we grew up, thru the years... until the Lord gave/gives us understanding. I dont claim to be an expert either, as this is just one way God let me experience His love and goodness in childbirth and humbly share what the enemy does not want people to know about, or accept.
Link is https://christianchat.com/christian-singles-forum/share-a-lesser-known-biblical-gem.131703/page-3
My post... Feb 25, 2016
#52
Did you know that childbirth in Bible times ws so different from what we do and know now? I have to dig passages but this paragraph from a natural childbirth book first published in '64:
Samuel Zwener, an early missionary to the Arabs, says that Arab women didn’t have painful deliveries until after their society had been adversely affected by Western culture. Even when trekking across the desert, an ‘Arab woman simply dropped behind the caravan when her labor began. After giving birth to her infant…she would walk (sometimes for many hours) to overtake the caravan, carrying her baby. The experiences of the Heb. Women of the Pentateuch were surely similar to these, since they were of the same Semitic origin and culture.'
The Joy of Natural Childbirth by Helen Wessel — Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists
Feb 25, 2016
#55
mar09 said:
Chap. 6, p/53
You feel pain in labor when the muscles of the abdominal wall are kept tense while the uterus is rising during contractions. When a mother does this-- usually w/o realizing she is doing it, the aching in these muscles increases with each contraction and soon spreads throughout the muscles of the pelvic area, making them ache, across the muscles of the lower back and hips, and even down into the thighs, so she literally 'aches all over' during labor, with increasing intensity...But if u learn to relax properly, letting all ur muscles become 'limp,' this brings miraculous relief, no matter how intense the contractions...
Indonesian women would just leave their work in the fields for an hour or so to bear their child, and shortly afterwards would be back at work again..they accept childbirth as a perfectly normal process.
Sarah, bearing a child when she was an old, old woman, who yet said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me. (Gen. 21.6)
Margaret Mead, the anthropologist, says majority of women suffer severe pain in childbirth, or accept giving birth matter of factly, depending on the culture in which they live. She says that pain, when it occurs, isn’t due to the physiological birth process, but to the attitudes toward birth which a woman has ‘learned’ from her culture… it is perhaps not without significance that in those Polynesian societies where the male participates in his wife’s delivery as a husband… there is an extremely simple, uncomplicated attitude towards birth; the women don’t scream, but instead work…
There is nothing (in the Bible) which says that women are meant to suffer pain when they bear a child.
Incidentally it is we mothers who can really promote natural childbirth.
Hello, karraster,
I think this was part of what the writer, Wessel, i mentioned was telling about. Sometimes even recent translations put 'meaning' or emphasis on where there wasnt in the original languages. And thats why it is so important not to stop studying the original languages for Scripture that may not be clearly understood, esp by a different culture from when they were written. This is a discussion that would take more time to make clear. What translations were these verses from? Learned that Gen. 3.16, for example, uses the word etsev or hard work where the modern translations used pain. It was in fact the same word used for Adam that God used for Eve.
I'm not sure how many people now would really take the interest or effort for something so ingrained in our minds (and cultures), but i know it was heaven sent, the book whose writer studied not just her personal experience of first difficult childbirths, then wondered would God really plan or will for women to give birth in pain just like that? That it was possible to experience God's love even in birth w/o or with little pain with her next (3?) children. I'm sorry, i read the material some 20+yrs ago, and except for my notes and remembering reading these again and again before and then again after our 2nd son's birth, i found nothing wrong with the explanations abt what happens physiologically w/ a mother giving birth, and how the enemy would want to steal something very good from humankind that God gave.
I think this was part of what the writer, Wessel, i mentioned was telling about. Sometimes even recent translations put 'meaning' or emphasis on where there wasnt in the original languages. And thats why it is so important not to stop studying the original languages for Scripture that may not be clearly understood, esp by a different culture from when they were written. This is a discussion that would take more time to make clear. What translations were these verses from? Learned that Gen. 3.16, for example, uses the word etsev or hard work where the modern translations used pain. It was in fact the same word used for Adam that God used for Eve.
I'm not sure how many people now would really take the interest or effort for something so ingrained in our minds (and cultures), but i know it was heaven sent, the book whose writer studied not just her personal experience of first difficult childbirths, then wondered would God really plan or will for women to give birth in pain just like that? That it was possible to experience God's love even in birth w/o or with little pain with her next (3?) children. I'm sorry, i read the material some 20+yrs ago, and except for my notes and remembering reading these again and again before and then again after our 2nd son's birth, i found nothing wrong with the explanations abt what happens physiologically w/ a mother giving birth, and how the enemy would want to steal something very good from humankind that God gave.
Thanks, blanche. I just wonder where those who created the pain index would put the experience of those with relatively painless childbirths... I understand Mcgill's index was a western medical output, but (how to explain) the eastern people and others who have very different experiences w/o nerve blocks and epidurals...
For those really interested in this, i hope u are able to find samples of people who actually experienced and can attest to this being real. Respondents in most studies are from larger hospitals, i suppose, in developed countries. In Sweden they have some things different, w/ childbirth lessons a normal part of mothers' lives, but some who read may want to explore more. As i said in another post, i studied this as a younger mother many yrs ago, but could help dig up info for any who may want to learn on this. Now i remember, there was a cc member who told abt her sister having natural childbirth wc she witnessed too.
Let me copy and paste again from thread on Bible gems:
Feb 25, 2016
#57
Ch. 10.
There are 5 (Heb. and Greek) words wc. when applied to a birth, mean simply 'bring forth, etc. Frequently, however, we find these mistranslated as 'travail, sorrow, pain, pangs,' and in some newer translations, even as 'writhe!'
Ch. 11
Even the teaching that God damned all women with pain... isnt Biblical and part of Jewish theology.
The church strongly opposed relief of pain in childbirth in the last century, bec. they taught that a woman's cries and screams pleased the ears of God... In France, 2 women were burned to death-- one for accepting relief for painful childbirth, and the other for giving it to her.
But during the same period in wc they were martyred, a great deal was being done to reduce man's struggle with his 'curse' of tilling the ground, w/ the devt of tools and machinery of the industrial age.
During the Reformation... not only did women have a low position in society, but twas not until this time-- the 16th and 17th centuries-- that the concept of 'pain in childbirth' was included in the 'curse of eve' teaching. Previously, it was only 'sorrow' and 'groans of toil' in childbirth...and subjection to one's husband were mentioned...
According to German scholars, the word most often associated with pain in labor, Wehen, cant be traced farther back than the middle ages.
The really sad thing... is that tho the church has abandoned other false teaching such as flagellation, burning of heretics...it has been slower than the rest of our culture in accepting childbirth as normal.
Alg with the terrible death rate in childbirth in the 19th century due to puerperal flu, a great fear of dying in childbirth developed... caused a woman to become so tense during labor that she resisted the normal progress of birth and created agonizing experiences for herself. This way, a vicious cycle was maintained.
Ch.13
Women have instinctively used various positions for centuries.. apparently found the semisitting position the most comfortable and one in wc they can push to the best advantage... even animals wisely use the aid of gravity in delivering their young.
Ch. 17 Anthrop.
Heb. woman usually crouched on her heals to give birth (1 Sam. 4.19), another woman knelt bet. her legs to receive the child out her waiting lap (Gen. 30.3).
For those really interested in this, i hope u are able to find samples of people who actually experienced and can attest to this being real. Respondents in most studies are from larger hospitals, i suppose, in developed countries. In Sweden they have some things different, w/ childbirth lessons a normal part of mothers' lives, but some who read may want to explore more. As i said in another post, i studied this as a younger mother many yrs ago, but could help dig up info for any who may want to learn on this. Now i remember, there was a cc member who told abt her sister having natural childbirth wc she witnessed too.
Let me copy and paste again from thread on Bible gems:
Feb 25, 2016
#57
Ch. 10.
There are 5 (Heb. and Greek) words wc. when applied to a birth, mean simply 'bring forth, etc. Frequently, however, we find these mistranslated as 'travail, sorrow, pain, pangs,' and in some newer translations, even as 'writhe!'
Ch. 11
Even the teaching that God damned all women with pain... isnt Biblical and part of Jewish theology.
The church strongly opposed relief of pain in childbirth in the last century, bec. they taught that a woman's cries and screams pleased the ears of God... In France, 2 women were burned to death-- one for accepting relief for painful childbirth, and the other for giving it to her.
But during the same period in wc they were martyred, a great deal was being done to reduce man's struggle with his 'curse' of tilling the ground, w/ the devt of tools and machinery of the industrial age.
During the Reformation... not only did women have a low position in society, but twas not until this time-- the 16th and 17th centuries-- that the concept of 'pain in childbirth' was included in the 'curse of eve' teaching. Previously, it was only 'sorrow' and 'groans of toil' in childbirth...and subjection to one's husband were mentioned...
According to German scholars, the word most often associated with pain in labor, Wehen, cant be traced farther back than the middle ages.
The really sad thing... is that tho the church has abandoned other false teaching such as flagellation, burning of heretics...it has been slower than the rest of our culture in accepting childbirth as normal.
Alg with the terrible death rate in childbirth in the 19th century due to puerperal flu, a great fear of dying in childbirth developed... caused a woman to become so tense during labor that she resisted the normal progress of birth and created agonizing experiences for herself. This way, a vicious cycle was maintained.
Ch.13
Women have instinctively used various positions for centuries.. apparently found the semisitting position the most comfortable and one in wc they can push to the best advantage... even animals wisely use the aid of gravity in delivering their young.
Ch. 17 Anthrop.
Heb. woman usually crouched on her heals to give birth (1 Sam. 4.19), another woman knelt bet. her legs to receive the child out her waiting lap (Gen. 30.3).
Yes, I experienced having children without pain. Others have done it also.
The muscles God uses to bring our children into the world are not under our control any more than the muscles of our heart are under our control. You cannot tell them to deliver this child at a certain time you decide on, they are automatic. But you all are treating them as if you are in the drivers seat. You aren't. That is a fact. It is also a fact that if you do not lie back and do absolutely nothing to help these muscles work you will cause them to be painful.
Imagine legs trying to run as you hold them.
God gives us a strong desire to help with the tremendous thing that is happening to us when we give birth. If you do nothing to help it along you must go into deep meditation. Your mind must be so focused on just allowing God to work this miracle in you that there is no other thought in your mind. Most people are no used to controlling their thoughts. Also, most people have not learned they can absolutely trust their God. So they help and they cause pain.
I found that nurses will not cooperate while you are doing this, they also want to meddle with God's work. The trick I used with them is to have them tell you all they know about birth. As they drone on about what you are concentrating on, they are not interfering by getting you to think of something else.
What it feels like to have painless birth is a feeling of muscles moving.
The muscles God uses to bring our children into the world are not under our control any more than the muscles of our heart are under our control. You cannot tell them to deliver this child at a certain time you decide on, they are automatic. But you all are treating them as if you are in the drivers seat. You aren't. That is a fact. It is also a fact that if you do not lie back and do absolutely nothing to help these muscles work you will cause them to be painful.
Imagine legs trying to run as you hold them.
God gives us a strong desire to help with the tremendous thing that is happening to us when we give birth. If you do nothing to help it along you must go into deep meditation. Your mind must be so focused on just allowing God to work this miracle in you that there is no other thought in your mind. Most people are no used to controlling their thoughts. Also, most people have not learned they can absolutely trust their God. So they help and they cause pain.
I found that nurses will not cooperate while you are doing this, they also want to meddle with God's work. The trick I used with them is to have them tell you all they know about birth. As they drone on about what you are concentrating on, they are not interfering by getting you to think of something else.
What it feels like to have painless birth is a feeling of muscles moving.
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May I add: we need a strong healthy body for our child. That requires the proper food. Diet rules are simple as it is a matter of staying away from manufactured white carbs. Look at all food you eat and ask yourself if men has taken God's work and tried to improve it. It is never an improvement, it damages. Grains need to be ground, that is all. Rice grains only need cleaning. Cream doesn't need sugar added and made into ice cream.
The best exercise for birth muscles is simply scrubbing floors on your hands and knees. Maybe you can think of a way to do this exercise in a way that is more fun.
The best exercise for birth muscles is simply scrubbing floors on your hands and knees. Maybe you can think of a way to do this exercise in a way that is more fun.
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You would think that when it is explained to birth mothers that there is a way of handling the muscles that do the work of giving birth so that they don't cause paint they would listen and learn instead of calling the teacher a liar.
This is a simple thing to learn. It is simply that the birth muscles are made strong enough to do the job if we don't interfere with them.
Just think of the people being told that Christ rose from the dead!! They made all kinds of reasons for Christ being gone from His grave. Even today most people do not believe that there is a powerful, loving, holy God who is active in our world and responds to us.
So people do not believe in a simple fact that birth muscles can work well if left alone.
So let it be.
This is a simple thing to learn. It is simply that the birth muscles are made strong enough to do the job if we don't interfere with them.
Just think of the people being told that Christ rose from the dead!! They made all kinds of reasons for Christ being gone from His grave. Even today most people do not believe that there is a powerful, loving, holy God who is active in our world and responds to us.
So people do not believe in a simple fact that birth muscles can work well if left alone.
So let it be.