Does anyone know who started the winter celebration of Christmas?

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SpoonJuly

Guest
#21
Hi SpoonJuly, you make a very good (and sad) point, and I certainly understand what you are saying. Then again, you cannot expect non-Christians to think like Christians do about Christmas.

It also seems to me that having the world celebrate His birth is far better than not celebrating/remembering it (even if it is done for the wrong reasons). It also gives those of us who know/understand what the real "reason for the season" is a regular opportunity to teach non-Christians what/Who all the hoopla and celebration is actually supposed to be about, yes :)

~Deut
Actually, I was talking about those who claim to be Christians.
If you really want to celebrate the birth of Jesus, omit the tree, the gifts, and the parties and gather together with other believers and/or family and read about the birth and death and resurrection of Jesus with much prayer and thanksgiving.
That is what my family has done since before I was born.
There has never been a tree, gift given or a party atmosphere.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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#22
I think that everyone that shuns "celebrating" Christmas should not take any time off from work. Companies would be very happy to have employees that would continue working through to New Year's eve.... Then take a day off, and go back to work.

Seriously, does anyone really believe that just because a pagan holiday was "converted" to a celebration of Jesus' birth, that we are really doing pagan worship? How silly. If I do not believe in pagan gods, and have been born again, nothing that I do could make me "accidentally" participate in pagan worship..... no matter what the day used to represent.

If my birthday fell on October 31, should I change the day I celebrate it, since, after all, that IS a satanic holiday....:rolleyes:

There are many, many serious things to be concerned about.... celebrating "Christmas" isn't one of them.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#23
I think that everyone that shuns "celebrating" Christmas should not take any time off from work. Companies would be very happy to have employees that would continue working through to New Year's eve.... Then take a day off, and go back to work.

Seriously, does anyone really believe that just because a pagan holiday was "converted" to a celebration of Jesus' birth, that we are really doing pagan worship? How silly. If I do not believe in pagan gods, and have been born again, nothing that I do could make me "accidentally" participate in pagan worship..... no matter what the day used to represent.

If my birthday fell on October 31, should I change the day I celebrate it, since, after all, that IS a satanic holiday....:rolleyes:

There are many, many serious things to be concerned about.... celebrating "Christmas" isn't one of them.
You are using human reasoning and conflating a birthday falling on the same day...

Lets consult the Most High:

Deuteronomy 12:29-32, “When YHWH your Father cuts off the nations from in front of you, and you displace them and live in their land, Be careful not to be ensnared into following them by asking about their gods (elohim), saying: How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do the same. You must not worship YHWH your Father in their way,..”
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
3,334
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#24
Actually, I was talking about those who claim to be Christians.
If you really want to celebrate the birth of Jesus, omit the tree, the gifts, and the parties and gather together with other believers and/or family and read about the birth and death and resurrection of Jesus with much prayer and thanksgiving.
Hi again SpoonJuly, as long as the focus remains on the One whose birth is being celebrated, why not do it all, even as Christians?

And while I understand why you have the kind of Christmas traditions that you do, I have MANY non-Christians in my giant family (there are 5,000+ in driving distance), so I have never wanted to appear as if I was shunning them by isolating myself from them on the one day each year that they choose to openly celebrate the Lord's birth, even if it ends up mostly being for all the wrong reasons (because sadly, the kind of Christmas celebration that your family has would hardly work for the many non-Christians in my semi-immediate family).

~Deut
 
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SpoonJuly

Guest
#25
Hi again SpoonJuly, as long as the focus remains on the One whose birth is being celebrated, why not do it all, even as Christians?

And while I understand why you have the kind of Christmas traditions that you do, I have MANY non-Christians in my giant family (there are 5,000+ in driving distance), so I have never wanted to appear as if I was shunning them by isolating myself from them on the one day each year that they choose to openly celebrate the Lord's birth, even if it ends up mostly being for all the wrong reasons (because sadly, the kind of Christmas celebration that your family has would hardly work for the many non-Christians in my semi-immediate family).

~Deut
I do not mean to judge or offend, but I will not compromise my belief or standard for family.
I do not believe that Jesus is the focus when one brings in the things of the world. (trees, gifts, party)
Such things distract from Jesus and His love and gift of eternal life.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
#26
With all due respect, it seems a bit of actual researched history of the early church is in order.

There are essentially no specific Christian holidays supported in the Bible; early Christians were converted Jews and followed Jewish traditions with respect to holidays.
Many gentiles were converted too...bringing with them some pagan traditions.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#27
Many gentiles were converted too...bringing with them some pagan traditions.
This is an interesting topic IMO, this thought has crossed my mind when I study that era: Do you believe they were converted to the religion the MEssiah taught and did or the religion Rome made?
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
#28
This is an interesting topic IMO, this thought has crossed my mind when I study that era: Do you believe they were converted to the religion the MEssiah taught and did or the religion Rome made?
Well, the church at Corinth could have been dealing with pagan practices, but they were genuine believers, I agree as time progressed the simple gospel was soon obfuscated, the church in Rome certainly went this way once Constantine stopped the persecution and Christianity became more dominant.

It is very hard to know, I agree.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#29
Well, the church at Corinth could have been dealing with pagan practices, but they were genuine believers, I agree as time progressed the simple gospel was soon obfuscated, the church in Rome certainly went this way once Constantine stopped the persecution and Christianity became more dominant.

It is very hard to know, I agree.
While there are probably no across the board difinitive answers, it seems there were many sects during and post Messiah and His disciples time. So kind of a person to person basis, I think this is why Rome prohibited the ownership, upon threat of death of any Scripture manuscripts, so they could more or less control the narritive. I can't help but be thinkful we have so much access to Scripture, Biblical study materials and historical record/evidence. Truly a blessing. Latley I have been studying a number of history books that give a look into the time from when Messiah ascended and Rome "became a Christian Empire in a day". Interesting stuff indeed!
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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#30
You should have gotten this right at least.

Christ was NOT born "in the springtime" but in mid- to late September. Possibly even in early September.
The relevant quote about the time of the year is there were shepherds sleeping in the field with their flocks. Here is some information from a site about the issue.

http://nabataea.net/birthdate.html
Excerpt from the site.

Here an authority of no mean standing tells us that in the dry summer season the hills are well-nigh bare, affording insufficient pasture, so the shepherds then normally keep their sheep near the town and enfold them at night. But when the winter rains fall, the hills become clothed with grass, and the shepherds, knowing this, take their sheep further a field. Then, because it would make the sheep walk too far to reach the folds every evening, expending energy needlessly, they simply watch their flocks in the fields all night. This seems to be precisely what the evangelist Luke describes:

"And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:8). The shepherds were not in the town; the flock was not in a fold in or near the town. They were afar in 'the field' or common pasturage. The sheep were taken there only in the winter, when the winter rains brought forth grass on the hills.

Another authority of the highest rank, Dr. Alfred Edersheim, who considers it likely that the angel appeared to the shepherds at the traditional site, states:

"This Migdol Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheep-ground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town" (Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah 1:186).

He surveys (in Appendix VII) all the evidences he is aware of, and while he admits that 'absolute certainty' is impossible as to the exact date of the Nativity, he shows that the known 'factors do not really conflict with the December dating. "There is no adequate reason," he wrote, "for questioning the historical accuracy of this date. The objections generally made rest on grounds which seem to me historically untenable."

Readers of Scripture who possess first-hand knowledge, or have acquaintance with authoritative works on the climate of Palestine, recognize that the arguments against the December date, based upon wintry and snowy conditions, are untenable. The facts have long been known.

As far back as 1863, Smith's Bible Dictionary, under the heading 'Palestine: the Climate', explained the rarity of snow in southern Palestine, while it conceded its more frequent occurrence in the northern parts of the land. The mean temperature at Jerusalem during December is said to run around 47 to 60 degrees F.

It certainly would not hurt sheep to be out at night in that sort of temperature. The Dictionary further states:

"As in the time of our Saviour (Luke 12: 54), the rains come chiefly from the S. or S.W. They commence at the end of October or beginning of November, and continue with greater or less constancy till the end of February or middle of March, and occasionally, though rarely, to the end of April. It is not a heavy continuous rain, so much as a succession of severe showers or storms with intervening periods of fine bright weather, permitting the grain crops to grow and ripen. And although the season is not divided by any entire cessation of rain for a lengthened interval, as some represent, yet there appears to be a diminution in the fall for a few weeks in December and January, after which it begins again, and continues during February and till the conclusion of the season."

It may be noted that the traditional date .for the birth of Christ falls in this period of the diminution of rainfall toward the end of December. The former rains would have produced grass on the hills, and the fine bright weather intervening between the rains, with temperatures averaging 55 degrees F. would be excellent for sheep grazing on the hills east of David's royal city.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,483
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#31
God did not specifically command Christians to celebrate specific feast days or "holy" (holi-) days.

God did not specifically forbid Christians from celebrating specific feast days or holidays.

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.

Those who celebrate Christmas do so unto the Lord. Those who refrain from celebrating Christmas do so unto the Lord.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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#32
1 Peter 2:16, “as free, yet not using your freedom as a cloak for evil, but as servants of the Mighty One.”

freedom in the MEssiah is not freedom to "honor Him using pagan practice"

this is crazy...

John 4:24, “Yah is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship in spirit and truth.”
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,483
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#33
1 Peter 2:16, “as free, yet not using your freedom as a cloak for evil, but as servants of the Mighty One.”

freedom in the MEssiah is not freedom to "honor Him using pagan practice"

this is crazy...

John 4:24, “Yah is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship in spirit and truth.”
Exactly which "pagan practices" concern you? Retelling the story of His birth? Singing songs which tell of His advent? Taking time from busy schedules to join together with others in fellowship and food with His birth as the occasion of honour? Perhaps giving of gifts, in memory of the many gifts the Father has given us in Christ?

All terribly pagan, I know. Shocking that Christians would do such things, isn't it?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
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#34
Exactly which "pagan practices" concern you? Retelling the story of His birth? Singing songs which tell of His advent? Taking time from busy schedules to join together with others in fellowship and food with His birth as the occasion of honour? Perhaps giving of gifts, in memory of the many gifts the Father has given us in Christ?

All terribly pagan, I know. Shocking that Christians would do such things, isn't it?
All the things that are Messiah focused I thin kare awesome and would love to do every day including Dec 25th, however using pagan forms of worship that are commonly used are not ways to worship the true Mighty One...

I could give 20 encyclopedias, dictionaries etc showing the "christmas" rituals are pagan in origin.

it goes way back...



Dec 25 is generally around the time of the solstice "the day the sun is reborn"

tree = tree of knowledge of good and evil

ornaments = forbidden fruit

angel or star on top of tree = satan who wanted to be higher than the throne of Yah

garland = serpent


 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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#35
Hebrew birthdays would onley coencide with the other calenders about once every 19 or so years,not quite twice in our lords days on earth...
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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#36
I do not mean to judge or offend, but I will not compromise my belief or standard for family.
Yikes, did I actually ask you to do that? Please forgive me if I did, because that was 'never' my intention.
I do not believe that Jesus is the focus when one brings in the things of the world. (trees, gifts, party). Such things distract from Jesus and His love and gift of eternal life.
There is no question that they can if they are allowed to. I don't believe that they have to though (but that is simply my opinion and my experience), and as I said, celebrating a traditional Christmas, one that allows us to include our non-Christian family members on the only day of the year that they might be willing to celebrate and talk openly about Him certainly has many advantages (some of which I detailed in an earlier post in this thread).

I will reiterate again (just to be clear) that I am by no means insisting that "my" way of doing Christmas is somehow superior to "your" way of doing it. Also, I grew up in a family that did Christmas traditionally, just like you grew up in one that did not, so I lean towards and am comfortable with a traditional Christmas for that reason as well.

~Deut
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#37
It certainly would not hurt sheep to be out at night in that sort of temperature.
That is not the only reason why the birth of Christ could not have been in December. The timing of the conception and birth of John the Baptist as related to timing of the service of his father in the temple has a major bearing on this. The details are available by doing an internet search.

In any event December 25 was originally and clearly a pagan holiday, and was simply adapted by the Catholic Church, along with a lot of other pagan festivals and ceremonies. The Protestants did not make this an issue but it is historically inaccurate.
 

Alertandawake

Senior Member
Aug 20, 2017
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#38
Have a read up on the Saturnalia festival, and Sol Invictus. Way too similar when comparing to Christmas.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#39
With all due respect, it seems a bit of actual researched history of the early church is in order.

There are essentially no specific Christian holidays supported in the Bible; early Christians were converted Jews and followed Jewish traditions with respect to holidays.
And Christmas was never a part of the OT jewish sabbaths..

If you think the catholic church is Christian then i pity you..
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
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#40
Dec 25 is generally around the time of the solstice "the day the sun is reborn"

tree = tree of knowledge of good and evil

ornaments = forbidden fruit

angel or star on top of tree = satan who wanted to be higher than the throne of Yah

garland = serpent

With all due respect - with the exception of the first item, these are ridiculous analogies that border on the paranoid.

The 25th does roughly correspond to the Winter Solstice - see my previous post. Also as "Alterandawake" has alluded to, this was also a time of year when many Roman pre-Christian celebrations were going on. Some of these traditions were carried into the Christmas tradition. This is not uncommon though - cultures borrow from one another; America is probably the best example of this process.

On another note - the emperor Constantine seems to also be a target for the start of many "RC traditions". He simply made Christianity "legal" in the Roman Empire. he was essentially an emperor of a Christian people; he himself did not convert until shortly before he died. It's likely his support of Christianity was more political than personal.