Rapture= false teaching

[lecoop]

Well that is certainly one way to see this passage. I personally don't subscribe to such reasonably deduced explanations for scripture, because they tend to preclude the revelation of the Spirit. Could not another possibility be that God's hand is what is withholding the son of perdition? If we look to the story of Job, we find that the devil himself was restrained by God, that Job had a hedge built all around him and his family, by God's favor. Truthfully, God's hand, His favor, has been restraining the devil for a very long time. If not for this favor, the devil would have already long before this destroyed all of us, and every part of creation possible.

Again, I am not subscribing to either position, pre or post. What I am doing is allowing the Spirit to teach me in this, and where He does not teach, I try not to make a judgment.

That is wise. I did the same thing. I still am for Revelation 17 & 18. I believe this is the best way to see this passage, for the simple reason, Paul is the only writer of the New Testament that received the revelation of the rapture of the church. then, if you examine verse 6, and notice the first three words, "and now you know" who is the restrainer. Why would Paul write those four words? We have to try and get inside Paul's head. First off, he MUST have written these 4 words because he JUST TOLD us who the restrainer was, and second, he must have told us in a cloaked or hidden manner, so wrote these 4 words so we would examine more closely what he just wrote.

Then I believe this is in perfect agreement with 1 Thes. 4-5 also. By the way, I was not smart enough to see those three parallel sentences. That was the Holy Spirit pointing that out to me.

Coop

 

[VW]

That is wise. I did the same thing. I still am for Revelation 17 & 18. I believe this is the best way to see this passage, for the simple reason, Paul is the only writer of the New Testament that received the revelation of the rapture of the church. then, if you examine verse 6, and notice the first three words, "and now you know" who is the restrainer. Why would Paul write those four words? We have to try and get inside Paul's head. First off, he MUST have written these 4 words because he JUST TOLD us who the restrainer was, and second, he must have told us in a cloaked or hidden manner, so wrote these 4 words so we would examine more closely what he just wrote.

Then I believe this is in perfect agreement with 1 Thes. 4-5 also. By the way, I was not smart enough to see those three parallel sentences. That was the Holy Spirit pointing that out to me.

Coop

I think that Paul told the Thessalonians in person, and when writing them later, reminded them of what he had said to them. He wrote, "Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed." This is a case where we truly need the Spirit's revelation to understand.

Blessings,
vic

 

[walt2000]

Seven Thunders of Revelations

This is not a End of Time Prediction. It is a true interp. of Revelation no time is Known​

This is the little scroll in Ez.2/9,Dan.12/4.Rev.10/4
Sweet in the mouth,Sour in the stomach
Can any one tell me or interpt.Rev.10/4
using the rule in Rev. 22/18.19 .walt2000

22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book. 22:19 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, may God take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.
You seem to want ,and insist on leaving Revelation ,so Read the above.
And I guess what can you get If you think the universe is 6000 years walt2000​

think that Paul told the Thessalonians in person, and when writing them later, reminded them of what he had said to them. He wrote, "Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed." This is a case where we truly need the Spirit's revelation to understand.​

WELL
IT IS REVELED
By walt2000​

 

[VW]

Well, walt, I didn't add anything to the prophecy of John. And what I posted was an attempt to keep others from adding to scripture. So, just what is this inapproiate warning about?

 

[walt2000]

People usually add the scenario to propagate their own.walt2000

 

[walt2000]

This chart above is the result of a word for word ribbon of Christ oun words.walt2000

 

[walt2000]

Seven Thunders of revelations​

 

[walt2000]

 

[lecoop]

Sorry Walt,

But if you are passing this chart off as truth, you missed the truth by about 2000 years.

If you had truly studied the vision in chapters 4 and 5, you would know that the first few seals were broken about 33 AD, as soon as Jesus ascended into the throne room.

Therefore, ANY chart of the 70th week will NOT include the four horsemen of Revelation.

I think you should go back to prophecy 101 and start over.

Coop

 

[sensitive]

I think that the reason why Christians some of them anyway are so concerned with the rapture teaching and whether or not it is true is because they are afraid. Yes afraid. Because when you read about the horrible things that Christians are going to be delivered up, killed, or you won't be able to buy or sell unless you take the mark of the beast it instills FEAR into the minds of Christians to read these things. So to believe we are going to be delivered is very desirable teaching. I have heard all the teachings.

Again what I think the root problem here is FEAR. Living and growing up in America I am not in fear of being put to death for being a Christian. So when I read about the possibility of me being put to death for my testimony in Christ Jesus, well, heck yeah, the idea of being raptured out of all of that is most desirable! Whether that is the case or not there are good debates on either side is the problem leaving it truly a mystery.

So the root problem here is fear of being put to death or tortured for your testimony in Christ Jesus and whether or not you can stand up to it. Remember Peter was so fearful he denied Christ three times before the cock crowed just as Jesus prophesied he would. Later Peter was crucified upside down for his beliefs in Christ Jesus.

So yes it is fear that is causes these debates for we would much rather be raptured out than go through those horrific things. But consider this. There are Christians in other countries that are going through these very things as I type this. People being tortured and put to death for their testimony in Christ Jesus and their refusal to deny HIM.

So bottom line I think we all need to examine ourselves and ask the question, "What would we do if persecuted?"

That is the real issue here.

 

[Red33]

Again what I think the root problem here is FEAR. Living and growing up in America I am not in fear of being put to death for being a Christian. So when I read about the possibility of me being put to death for my testimony in Christ Jesus, well, heck yeah, the idea of being raptured out of all of that is most desirable! Whether that is the case or not there are good debates on either side is the problem leaving it truly a mystery.

So the root problem here is fear of being put to death or tortured for your testimony in Christ Jesus and whether or not you can stand up to it. Remember Peter was so fearful he denied Christ three times before the cock crowed just as Jesus prophesied he would. Later Peter was crucified upside down for his beliefs in Christ Jesus.

Let's take it a step further and instead of torturing you or putting you to death, the authorities would torture or put your children to death if you did not deny and renounce your faith in Christ or take the mark of the beast. Then what would you do, denounce your faith in Christ or save your children. What if your husband was not a believer and he pleaded with you to save your children first and you could work things out later and still believe as you take the mark? Not such a no brainer is it. I wonder how much self preservation would be involved in your decision when your own family is at stake.

It is absurd to implicate those who believe the promise of being raptured and caught up to meet the Lord in the air, as the the church and body of Christ before the Great Tribulation, as being motivated by fear. You indite others in the church like VW does because you do not have the truth in your understanding as to the will of God for the church and its head, Jesus Christ. Believers have been persecuted, tortured and put to death in every generation since the inception of the church. You lay a charge against believers in the church that Jesus Christ nor the Holy Spirit has never done through prophecy, through the word or through what the Spirit has said to the churches for over 2,000 years. So take your fear tactics and send them back to the gates of hell where they came from.

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[lecoop]

I think that the reason why Christians some of them anyway are so concerned with the rapture teaching and whether or not it is true is because they are afraid. Yes afraid. Because when you read about the horrible things that Christians are going to be delivered up, killed, or you won't be able to buy or sell unless you take the mark of the beast it instills FEAR into the minds of Christians to read these things. So to believe we are going to be delivered is very desirable teaching. I have heard all the teachings.

Again what I think the root problem here is FEAR. Living and growing up in America I am not in fear of being put to death for being a Christian. So when I read about the possibility of me being put to death for my testimony in Christ Jesus, well, heck yeah, the idea of being raptured out of all of that is most desirable! Whether that is the case or not there are good debates on either side is the problem leaving it truly a mystery.

So the root problem here is fear of being put to death or tortured for your testimony in Christ Jesus and whether or not you can stand up to it. Remember Peter was so fearful he denied Christ three times before the cock crowed just as Jesus prophesied he would. Later Peter was crucified upside down for his beliefs in Christ Jesus.

So yes it is fear that is causes these debates for we would much rather be raptured out than go through those horrific things. But consider this. There are Christians in other countries that are going through these very things as I type this. People being tortured and put to death for their testimony in Christ Jesus and their refusal to deny HIM.

So bottom line I think we all need to examine ourselves and ask the question, "What would we do if persecuted?"

That is the real issue here.

What is the truth? Why not just read the truth and BELIEVE it?

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man

What does Luke mean by "all these things?" To get the complete answer we need to read this Olivet discourse in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Here are some of the things we can escape.

Luke 12:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luk 13
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)...

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Matt 24
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


God is telling us through Luke that there IS A WAY OF ESCAPE! What is that way? Of course it is the PRETRIB rapture of the church. HERE is the escape! Read it!

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Please note, just 3 verses after the classic rapture verse, Paul speaks of the "Day of the Lord." Why would he do that? It is very simple: the rapture is back to back with the Day of the Lord. The signs of the Day of the Lord come immediately after the rapture. (see the 6th seal) In fact, what Paul is really teaching here is that the rapture is the TRIGGER for the day of the Lord.

There is a SUDDENLY coming - at a time of peace and safety - like today. It will be a WORLD WIDE earthqake worse than anything this world has experienced. Now, Paul gives us a paradigm: he will compare TWO different groups of people at this sudden event, and show us TWO DIFFERENT outcomes.

First, those living in darkness GET THE SUDDEN DESTRUCTION.
Second, those living in the light ESCAPE this sudden destruction by way of "salvation" meaning rapture, for Paul writes that we get to LIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM (rapture.)

So don't EVER think that Paul did not give us the TIMING of the rapture! It will come at a time of peace and safety (like today) and JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord begins.

So there is NO NEED for any kind of fear: if you BELIEVE in the pretrib rapture and are WATCHING for Him, you will "escape all these things."

Coop

 

[walt2000]

Sorry Walt,

But if you are passing this chart off as truth, you missed the truth by about 2000 years.

If you had truly studied the vision in chapters 4 and 5, you would know that the first few seals were broken about 33 AD, as soon as Jesus ascended into the throne room.

Therefore, ANY chart of the 70th week will NOT include the four horsemen of Revelation.

I think you should go back to prophecy 101 and start over.

Coop

Revelation is a future event , If you can't see anything in that flash card I gave you , I don't think you are going to get it in anther 2000 years.It is obvious to even the blind .You don't have to do any work it's all done for you. All the hints I Gave you around the perimeter of the chart and you still don't see .
Rev.14/2 is The Great Thunder, the 8th. Thunder. White Horse to White Horse. The Blue Line .walt2000

 

[Timofree]

Jesus is coming back= TRUE teaching!!!
I may well never fully grasp how before I see Him coming on the clouds, but as long as we cling to Him, as interesting as it might be to discuss, it doesn't matter much. Ultimately it's in His hands.

Im not sure pre, mid, post or whatever, but let's not forget those dear saints all over the world who's blood is currently being spillled for their faith. However you want to word it, it's a time of tribulation for them.

 

[Graybeard]

I think that the reason why Christians some of them anyway are so concerned with the rapture teaching and whether or not it is true is because they are afraid. Yes afraid. Because when you read about the horrible things that Christians are going to be delivered up, killed, or you won't be able to buy or sell unless you take the mark of the beast it instills FEAR into the minds of Christians to read these things. So to believe we are going to be delivered is very desirable teaching. I have heard all the teachings.

Again what I think the root problem here is FEAR. Living and growing up in America I am not in fear of being put to death for being a Christian. So when I read about the possibility of me being put to death for my testimony in Christ Jesus, well, heck yeah, the idea of being raptured out of all of that is most desirable! Whether that is the case or not there are good debates on either side is the problem leaving it truly a mystery.

So the root problem here is fear of being put to death or tortured for your testimony in Christ Jesus and whether or not you can stand up to it. Remember Peter was so fearful he denied Christ three times before the cock crowed just as Jesus prophesied he would. Later Peter was crucified upside down for his beliefs in Christ Jesus.

So yes it is fear that is causes these debates for we would much rather be raptured out than go through those horrific things. But consider this. There are Christians in other countries that are going through these very things as I type this. People being tortured and put to death for their testimony in Christ Jesus and their refusal to deny HIM.

So bottom line I think we all need to examine ourselves and ask the question, "What would we do if persecuted?"

That is the real issue here.

Okay so I believe in the Rapture and your comments that my belief is rooted and driven by fear made me pause and think about it..."Is it fear that has caused me to cling to the hope of a Rapture?...." I sincerely questioned myself, and I can honestly answer that it is a confident NO!.....fear is the last thing on my mind!....I yearn for the joy of His return!


Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

That's what drives me!!...the fact is that these very signs are to be witnessed in our present time....knowing it is soon!!
so sorry my dear...you got it wrong!

 

[VW]

Again what I think the root problem here is FEAR. Living and growing up in America I am not in fear of being put to death for being a Christian. So when I read about the possibility of me being put to death for my testimony in Christ Jesus, well, heck yeah, the idea of being raptured out of all of that is most desirable! Whether that is the case or not there are good debates on either side is the problem leaving it truly a mystery.

So the root problem here is fear of being put to death or tortured for your testimony in Christ Jesus and whether or not you can stand up to it. Remember Peter was so fearful he denied Christ three times before the cock crowed just as Jesus prophesied he would. Later Peter was crucified upside down for his beliefs in Christ Jesus.

Let's take it a step further and instead of torturing you or putting you to death, the authorities would torture or put your children to death if you did not deny and renounce your faith in Christ or take the mark of the beast. Then what would you do, denounce your faith in Christ or save your children. What if your husband was not a believer and he pleaded with you to save your children first and you could work things out later and still believe as you take the mark? Not such a no brainer is it. I wonder how much self preservation would be involved in your decision when your own family is at stake.

It is absurd to implicate those who believe the promise of being raptured and caught up to meet the Lord in the air, as the the church and body of Christ before the Great Tribulation, as being motivated by fear. You indite others in the church like VW does because you do not have the truth in your understanding as to the will of God for the church and its head, Jesus Christ. Believers have been persecuted, tortured and put to death in every generation since the inception of the church. You lay a charge against believers in the church that Jesus Christ nor the Holy Spirit has never done through prophecy, through the word or through what the Spirit has said to the churches for over 2,000 years. So take your fear tactics and send them back to the gates of hell where they came from.

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

God forgive you. I am having a hard time doing so.

 

[VW]

I think that the reason why Christians some of them anyway are so concerned with the rapture teaching and whether or not it is true is because they are afraid. Yes afraid. Because when you read about the horrible things that Christians are going to be delivered up, killed, or you won't be able to buy or sell unless you take the mark of the beast it instills FEAR into the minds of Christians to read these things. So to believe we are going to be delivered is very desirable teaching. I have heard all the teachings.

Again what I think the root problem here is FEAR. Living and growing up in America I am not in fear of being put to death for being a Christian. So when I read about the possibility of me being put to death for my testimony in Christ Jesus, well, heck yeah, the idea of being raptured out of all of that is most desirable! Whether that is the case or not there are good debates on either side is the problem leaving it truly a mystery.

So the root problem here is fear of being put to death or tortured for your testimony in Christ Jesus and whether or not you can stand up to it. Remember Peter was so fearful he denied Christ three times before the cock crowed just as Jesus prophesied he would. Later Peter was crucified upside down for his beliefs in Christ Jesus.

So yes it is fear that is causes these debates for we would much rather be raptured out than go through those horrific things. But consider this. There are Christians in other countries that are going through these very things as I type this. People being tortured and put to death for their testimony in Christ Jesus and their refusal to deny HIM.

So bottom line I think we all need to examine ourselves and ask the question, "What would we do if persecuted?"

That is the real issue here.

You are not far wrong. I believed in the rapture once, with all my heart. I had also not been drawing near to God. I had not been in His presence to be judged in my heart, to see the truth of my sin and the wonder of His salvation. Now I do not so much discount the rapture as I do the belief which denies the power of God in the life of the child of God. Or, a form of godliness without the power of God.

Peter was afraid, and denied knowing Jesus 3 times. Later, after he had received the Spirit, and had walked in the presence of God for many years, he was crucified upside down. Paul was a violent aggressor against Christ Jesus, by persecuting His flock, His sheep. He was filled with the Spirit and was persecuted from that time onward.

Much of the persecution that the church sees today is political. The persecution of the days coming will not be political, it will be out and out spiritual warfare. The church is not equipped for this war.

So the actual issue is: do we really know God? Are we walking in the Spirit and in Christ? Have we truly died at the cross to life again in His resurrection? If so, we will not be afraid.

And by smooth words he will turn to godlessness those who act wickedly toward the covenant, but the people who know their God will display strength and take action. And those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many; yet they will fall by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plunder, for many days. Now when they fall they will be granted a little help, and many will join with them in hypocrisy. And some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine, to purge, and make them pure, until the end time; because it is still to come at the appointed time.

In His love,
vic

 

[lecoop]

Revelation is a future event ,

Readers: let's check this statement for accuracy:

Rev 1
9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Hmmm. It seems that this part of Revelation is when John was still alive, about 95 AD. In fact, the letters to the churches in chapters 2-3 were also churches existing in John's day and His letter (this book) was to be delivered to each church. So even chapter 3 is still 95 AD.

If one really studies the vision of chapter 4, you will see that it is a vision OF THE PAST! It is a vision of about 33 AD, looking back to a time BEFORE JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD. (John got to see the very moment that Jesus ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended.

If one examines seal #5, they would discover it is the seal for CHURCH AGE martyrs. Stephen was one of the first. It is the first place where we see a long wait. This seal was broken with the first 4, about 33 AD. But these martyrs were told that they must wait for the FINAL church age martyr to be killed as they were - - as church age martyrs. So we are now waiting as they are for the church age to end. It will end at the 6th seal.

This is the TRUTH of the book of Revelation. So my statement still stands: His chart needs a LOT of revision.

If you can't see anything in that flash card I gave you , I don't think you are going to get it in anther 2000 years.It is obvious to even the blind .You don't have to do any work it's all done for you.

All the hints I Gave you around the perimeter of the chart and you still don't see .
Rev.14/2 is The Great Thunder, the 8th. Thunder. White Horse to White Horse. The Blue Line .walt2000

To his credit, he has kept the seals, trumpets and vials separate. Many try in error to mix them up.
However, the truth is, the seals are a part of the CHURCH AGE, not a part of the 70th week. It is the 6th seal that ENDS the church age. He has the seals listed as the first thunder.

Walt, I would like to see a scripture to show how the seals are the "first thunder." John does not mention the 7 thunders until chapter 10. In fact, the 7 thunders come AFTER the 6th trumpet. So I stand firm in my comments: your chart needs to be redone. you are pushing something as truth, when in fact, it is ERROR.

Coop

 

[sensitive]

To say you have no fear so vehemently reminds me of how vehemently Peter denied what Jesus had just told him would happen. Peter denied what Jesus prophesied over him saying that he would follow him even to death, then later he denied him three times. So people denying their own fear is not wise. This is human nature. To be afraid is human nature and to deny that you would be afraid of persecution like we have never experienced in these United States of America is absurd. To blast me like you did RED? I have to shake my head. To me telling Christians don't worry you are going to be raptured out of everything and won't have to suffer is giving false hope. It leaves one totally unprepared in the event you ever had to face real persecution such as some of our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus are in other countries right now. Get mad at me all you want, I only pointed out human nature. Everyone of the disciples fled just like Jesus said they would and Jesus was left all alone just like he said it would happen in the face of persecution, so naturally a teaching that promises you won't have to go through anything horrible is pretty indeed.

 

[sensitive]

All of the disciples except for one were put to death in some horrible manner. They were not promised deliverance and some were not delivered. So to give me scriptures and tell me I am promised is to me taking scriptures out of context.