Joshua’s long day

[Scrobulous]

If the universe is to vanish today, i mean everything, darkness and silence will remain- shows that they don't depend on anything.



Existence of light has been confirmed by minds not science, if everyone was blind would light still exist? would the age of the world be 13b years? even if the answer is yes, how would the blind people accept these as reality?

Q. You say the universe is 13B years and also believe that the earth is 4.5B years. A year, originally, is the period of time a fully formed Earth revolves around the sun once. Do you believe there was 9B years before the earth was fully formed? How is that if the earth is the standard clock for the period of time called a year?

If the universe disappeared today there would be no darkness and no silence. Such terms have no meaning if there is no universe. I don’t know how often I need to say this.
It is not necessary for the existance of light to be confirmed. Light was generated by the first stars and no one was there to confirm it. Yet the light was still there. It can be confirmed now by collecting light that has travelled across the universe from the earliest galaxies.
If everyone was blind light would still exist. Whether people accepted the reality is immaterial.
The year was originally defined in terms of the movement of the earth. A year in the sense that science defines it now is in terms of seconds and multiples of them. A second is the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom.
Yes, I do believe there was 9B years before the earth was formed.

 

[Noose]

If the universe disappeared today there would be no darkness and no silence. Such terms have no meaning if there is no universe. I don’t know how often I need to say this.

This is where we are not going to agree, the description 'no silence' means there is sound and the description 'no darkness' means there is light which brings your world view crumbling down. This is not just literature and word play, science uses words and the words must have meaning.

And you also seem to suggest that darkness and silence can come into existence- immaterial things can not be created or destroyed.

The year was originally defined in terms of the movement of the earth. A year in the sense that science defines it now is in terms of seconds and multiples of them. A second is the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom.
Yes, I do believe there was 9B years before the earth was formed.

So time only started when light started travelling?

 

[Scrobulous]

This is where we are not going to agree, the description 'no silence' means there is sound and the description 'no darkness' means there is light which brings your world view crumbling down. This is not just literature and word play, science uses words and the words must have meaning.

And you also seem to suggest that darkness and silence can come into existence- immaterial things can not be created or destroyed.




So time only started when light started travelling?

I am going to ignore your comments about light and sound, since you are incapable of comprehending what I say.
Light and sound and their converses are properties of the universe. They came into existance when the universe was created, as did space and time. Before the universe none of these things existed.
Your suggestion that immaterial things cannot be created or destroyed is bogus.
The age of the universe is the number of seconds since the big bang. It is independent of when light started travelling.

 

[Zmouth]

Here is wisdom from an Alabama bumper sticker, and I do adhere to it always.

So that is where you get your wisdom from, it all makes sense now.....

"God said it! I believe it! That settles it!"

Humm, yet it is written that all scripture is given by inspiration but I can't say that is what I heard but if I had to believe I heard it then I wouldn't believe I had heard it.

I do wish everyone would stop their yammering now.

Oh please don't stop now, since it is written that God is light then it would definitely be interesting be a blessing to hear what God's Light is since you obviously must have knowledge of it or have seen it.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; John 3:11​

FYI: Lightening is not a light but plasma. So you got me a little worried that you might reply

God has only spoken to me once while I as awake.

Where you driving at the time?

 

[Noose]

The universe exists in the human mind and when sin was found in the human mind, all creation (universe) decays (2nd law of thermodynamics) because of sin in human mind.

Rom 8:
18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that h the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

 

[Scrobulous]

The universe exists in the human mind and when sin was found in the human mind, all creation (universe) decays (2nd law of thermodynamics) because of sin in human mind.

Rom 8:
18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that h the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

If the universe is simply a construct of the human mind, which human mind? For all humans to be connected to each other, reality can only be a construct from the mind of God. Reality must be the same for all people. If we all had different universes, then we wouldn’t relate to each other. There would be conflicts between the various versions of reality in different people’s heads. If reality is a kind of mass hallucination from God, then it is indistinguishable from a universe created outside the human mind. So where does this get us?
The fact is that this egocentric position that you champion doesn’t correspond to what we already know. We know that many events happened before men arrived and that many events happen that man doesn’t register. Things exist that clearly are not the product of a human mind. Do you decide on the path a bee will steer? To suggest that everything is the product of the human mind flies in the face of all reason.
Nothing that Paul says about the creation implies that it is all in the human mind.

 

[Noose]

If the universe is simply a construct of the human mind, which human mind? For all humans to be connected to each other, reality can only be a construct from the mind of God. Reality must be the same for all people. If we all had different universes, then we wouldn’t relate to each other. There would be conflicts between the various versions of reality in different people’s heads. If reality is a kind of mass hallucination from God, then it is indistinguishable from a universe created outside the human mind. So where does this get us?
The fact is that this egocentric position that you champion doesn’t correspond to what we already know. We know that many events happened before men arrived and that many events happen that man doesn’t register. Things exist that clearly are not the product of a human mind. Do you decide on the path a bee will steer? To suggest that everything is the product of the human mind flies in the face of all reason.
Nothing that Paul says about the creation implies that it is all in the human mind.

C'mon, Paul says the universe is awaiting for the glory to be revealed in us so that it can be freed from bondage of decay. IOW, there's a connection between the universe and our hearts/minds.

Each one of us doesn't have their own reality, there's only one reality which is Truth (God), but our understanding has failed so each one of us has different understanding and this is what we call sin.

 

[Zmouth]

They came into existance when the universe was created, as did space and time. Before the universe none of these things existed.

So you believe the universe was created? Would you care to share what you believe existed before the universe?

It seems most people who claim a belief in the scriptures and science generally accept the Hypothesis of the Primordial Atom published by Georges Lemaître, a Catholic Priest, which interestingly now only shows upon on Google searches as the Hypothesis of the Primeval Atom. Yet whatever flavor of the day they choose to use as the title of Lemaître's published hypothesis, it is commonly know now as the 'Big Bang'.​

​

The term 'Big Bang' which was first coined by Fred Hoyle was given as a negative connotation since Hoyle considered Lemaître's hypothesis as a pseudoscience. He found the idea that the universe had a beginning resembled an argument for a creator, "for it's an irrational process, and can't be described in scientific terms" [Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hoyle} ​

However, if you do respond to this post it would help if you specify how you define the Biblical term 'create' since many define it as simply making something while I would suggest that it is more specific than just making something but rather infers an act which results in something coming into existence which has never existed before in either substance or form.

 

[PS]

And the sun stood still, and the moon stood still, until the people had avenged themselves on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? And the sun stood still in the midst of the heavens, and did not hasten to go down about a whole day. (Jos 10:13 MKJV)

It is a quotation from the poetical book of Jashure inserted into the thread of the narrative after it had been completed, most probably by another hand than that of the author of the Book of Joshua. (Albert Barnes, paraphrased.)

 

[Scrobulous]

So you believe the universe was created? Would you care to share what you believe existed before the universe?

It seems most people who claim a belief in the scriptures and science generally accept the Hypothesis of the Primordial Atom published by Georges Lemaître, a Catholic Priest, which interestingly now only shows upon on Google searches as the Hypothesis of the Primeval Atom. Yet whatever flavor of the day they choose to use as the title of Lemaître's published hypothesis, it is commonly know now as the 'Big Bang'.​

​

The term 'Big Bang' which was first coined by Fred Hoyle was given as a negative connotation since Hoyle considered Lemaître's hypothesis as a pseudoscience. He found the idea that the universe had a beginning resembled an argument for a creator, "for it's an irrational process, and can't be described in scientific terms" [Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hoyle} ​

However, if you do respond to this post it would help if you specify how you define the Biblical term 'create' since many define it as simply making something while I would suggest that it is more specific than just making something but rather infers an act which results in something coming into existence which has never existed before in either substance or form.

Yes, I believe the universe was created. How else could a universe exist, assuming we discount the steady state idea and its offspring?
When you ask what existed before, I have to ask the question, existed where?
The biblical form of creation suggests, as you say, creation ex-nihilo.

 

[Scrobulous]

C'mon, Paul says the universe is awaiting for the glory to be revealed in us so that it can be freed from bondage of decay. IOW, there's a connection between the universe and our hearts/minds.

Each one of us doesn't have their own reality, there's only one reality which is Truth (God), but our understanding has failed so each one of us has different understanding and this is what we call sin.

Of course there is a connection between us and the creation. But this does not mean that the creation depends solely on man. For all we know, God may be running other projects in the universe.

 

[PS]

Yes, I believe the universe was created. How else could a universe exist, assuming we discount the steady state idea and its offspring?
When you ask what existed before, I have to ask the question, existed where?
The biblical form of creation suggests, as you say, creation ex-nihilo.

The six days of creation as recorded in scripture compare one-for- one with our present day scientific knowledge. How can, I ask myself, the writers of Genesis have known this except by divine revelation?

Day 1. Archean Eon
Day 2. Proterozoic Eon
Day 3. Phanerozoic Eon
Day 4. Palaeozoic Era
Day 5. Mesozoic Era
Day 6. Cenozoic Era

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_evolutionary_history_of_life

 

[tourist]

Of course there is a connection between us and the creation. But this does not mean that the creation depends solely on man. For all we know, God may be running other projects in the universe.

God most likely is.

 

[Zmouth]

When you ask what existed before, I have to ask the question, existed where?

Wouldn't that be the eternal expanse?

 

[Scrobulous]

Wouldn't that be the eternal expanse?

What do you mean by that?

 

[Scrobulous]

The six days of creation as recorded in scripture compare one-for- one with our present day scientific knowledge. How can, I ask myself, the writers of Genesis have known this except by divine revelation?

Day 1. Archean Eon
Day 2. Proterozoic Eon
Day 3. Phanerozoic Eon
Day 4. Palaeozoic Era
Day 5. Mesozoic Era
Day 6. Cenozoic Era

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_evolutionary_history_of_life

The problem with this interpretation is that the Phanerozoic Eon, your day 3, includes the the Paleozoic, Mesozoic, and Cenozoic eras, that is days 4, 5 and 6. Also Genesis explicitely states that each day consists of a morning and an afternoon, which suggests the text is thinking of it’s days as days, rather than eras and eons.
I am more inclined to the view that Genesis is God trying to describe the creation in terms that can be understood by people living in the 1st century, where the narrative would be taken literally and in the 21st century where we can regard it as poetry or mythology. Such genres are by no means illegitimate forms of communication. They don’t detract from the truth of the bible. God is not interested in telling us the literal details of the creation, just that he made everything.

 

[Scrobulous]

"... if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, ..." Ezek 14:9

Hilarious!

 

[Zmouth]

What do you mean by that?

The 'Eternal Expanse' is that which exists beyond the finite body of space we call the universe.

 

[Scrobulous]

The 'Eternal Expanse' is that which exists beyond the finite body of space we call the universe.

Yes. That would be my assumption.

 

[Zmouth]

"... if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, ..." Ezek 14:9

Hilarious!

If all things are possible with God then that obviously must include lying. If God can't lie then all things wouldn't be possible for God then would it? And if those who don't believe that all things were possible God will definitely dismiss the possibly that God could lie since the is written that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, as written in Hebrew 6:18;

That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Heb 6:18

But it isn't written that the LORD will deceive the prophet, merely that if the prophet is deceived then you will know the reason why