The Abomination of Desolation

[eternally-gratefull]

Again,,,here's Josephus war's 2 http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html read it this time and tell me if the Jews received the mark(of Rome) or if Josephus said that they had no Piety for Caesar and revolted instead.

Those Jews absolutly refused to bow to Rome and "revolted", better known as "Jewish wars/revolt" which means that they absolutely did not receive the "Mark of the beast"...

And then tell us how someone setting up this at the end of the war qualifies the scripture where the Christians are told "when you see the AOD spoken of by Daniel..." that they should then flee to the mountains,,,,lol, AFTER THE WAR!!!,,,,

Tell me how this so called war was

Worldwide

Greater than WW1 or WW2, let alone some of the other smaller wars in the 20th century (great tribuation such as has never been seen before or after)

How rome could have controlled every aspect of any persons money (can not buy or sell)

Was destroyed by Christ?

I do not understand this thought that AD 70 and what occured can even remotely be seen as the great tribulation spoken of by Christ, or the great war/time of jacobs trouble spoken of in the OT prophecys,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Was Jesus relating to the Jews who are currently living in the land of Israel and who do not believe in Him, to flee when they saw the abomination that maketh desolate?
Why would the Lord address a nation not called by His name, who do not believe in Him to flee; as the vast majority of Jews would not even be aware of His warning, having never read the New Testament?
I recognize the Lords remarks in regards to all believers throughout the world to flee when they see the abomination that maketh desolate stand where it ought not.
This fits very nicely with Revelation 12:14 & 7 where the woman flees into the wilderness for a time, times, and half a time (1,260 days) and is spiritually fed; which according to Daniel 7:25 represent the saints.
With these correlations in scriptures, I then recognize the Lord is addressing saints to flee from the beasts system which is being set up, and is not addressing the faithless who will adore the beasts system (Revelation 13:8).


Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus refered to Jews.

This thought that he could not be talking about the people living in israel today as a means to symbolise prophecy is faulty at best.

Paul called the jews blind in part. And their blindness would remain until the time of the gentile is completed, At this time, they would repent and be saved, This is also called the time of Jacobs troubel, a time of great tribulation which would be on the world. And cause Israel to repent. Are those people in israel who are unbelieving jews? I have no idea. What I do know. Is if they are. There will be a time their persecution is so severe, it will cause them to look to God. And when they do, God will us that time to cause them to repent.

This is not a who is saved who is not saved debate, this is a debate on who is the women, Who is Israel. What is the abomination of desolation. Where is it. Is it literal. is it symbolic.

Again I must ask, Why would God give a symbolic prophesy? It would not prove who he is. And could not be used to complete its purpose. A symbolic interpretation makes Gods prophesies no better than Nostrodomus (sp??)

 

[trofimus]

"Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them"

"The deserters give the Romans pitful reports of increasing famine in the city and attacks by insurgents performing house-to-house searches for food, beating and torturing those within. The wealthy are robbed and murdered."

"Titus decides to blockade the city completely to prevent food supplies entering...the famine within the city intensifies."

Josephus Flavius

 

[trofimus]

Famines:
"The victims of famine are dying in countless numbers. Hungry rebels like mad dogs stagger from house to house searching for food. Shoe leather and grass is gnawed on. "

False prophets:
"The populace, especially poor women and children, are persuaded by a "false prophet" to go up to the Temple court to receive deliverance from the Deity. The crowd of about 6,000 climbs onto the porticoes, which are set on fire by the Romans. All perish."

"There were many false prophets at the time, says Josephus, yet people had not paid attention to the genuine signs of destruction: a star resembling a sword standing over the city, a comet, a brilliant light around the altar, a vision of armed battalions in the sky, and voices in the Temple, along with the prophecies of a peasant crying 'Woe to Jerusalem.' "It is impossible for men to escape their fate, even though they foresee it."

Abomination:
"Romans carry standards into the sanctuary at the east gate and sacrifice to them. So much gold has been taken from Temple that the price of gold throughout Syria is halved. The priests are executed by Titus. "

1,000,000 dead:
Number of prisoners taken in the entire war: 97,000. Died during siege: 1,100,000. This large number during the siege was due to the Passover celebration, as Jews from many countries had been in the city for the festival when the siege began. Josephus tells skeptical readers this number is consistent with Cestius' population estimate under Nero.

Temple and Jerusalem destroyed:
Titus orders the whole city and Temple to be razed to the ground, leaving only the tallest towers and a small portion of the wall on the west. The Xth legion is left to garrison Jerusalem.

http://www.josephus.org/FlJosephus2/warChronology7Fall.html

 

[luigi]

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus said that everything mentioned in Luke 21 must be fulfilled before the generation alive at that time passed away. This being so how could anything mentioned in Luke 21 be happening 2000 years later?

Have prior generations, seen the seas and waves roaring to the extent that their hearts are failing them recognizing things are going to get worse (Luke 21:25-26)?
Have prior generations seen the Lord coming on a cloud with power and great glory (Luke 21:27)?
The answer to these questions is: No.
The generation that witnesses the events described in Luke 21, Matthew 24, and Mark 13 will not pass away before the end of Satan's system. This means the events in these chapters will not take 40 or more years to complete before the Lord will commence to reign.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 

[luigi]

Jesus refered to Jews.

This thought that he could not be talking about the people living in israel today as a means to symbolise prophecy is faulty at best.

Paul called the jews blind in part. And their blindness would remain until the time of the gentile is completed, At this time, they would repent and be saved, This is also called the time of Jacobs troubel, a time of great tribulation which would be on the world. And cause Israel to repent. Are those people in israel who are unbelieving jews? I have no idea. What I do know. Is if they are. There will be a time their persecution is so severe, it will cause them to look to God. And when they do, God will us that time to cause them to repent.

This is not a who is saved who is not saved debate, this is a debate on who is the women, Who is Israel. What is the abomination of desolation. Where is it. Is it literal. is it symbolic.

Again I must ask, Why would God give a symbolic prophesy? It would not prove who he is. And could not be used to complete its purpose. A symbolic interpretation makes Gods prophesies no better than Nostrodomus (sp??)

I bring scriptures that correlate to the table, to which you deny by claiming them symbolizing faulty prophesy.
You are correct in that the Jews blindness will remain until the time of the gentile is completed (Revelation 11:2).
This 42 month period in which the gentile treads Jerusalem underfoot correlates with the abomination that maketh desolate (the gentile) invading and deslolating the land of Israel. Death and Hell coming over every morning by day and by night and daily taking a sacrifice of many lives (Isaiah 28:18-20).

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

 

[KJV1611]

Have prior generations, seen the seas and waves roaring to the extent that their hearts are failing them recognizing things are going to get worse (Luke 21:25-26)?
Have prior generations seen the Lord coming on a cloud with power and great glory (Luke 21:27)?
The answer to these questions is: No.
The generation that witnesses the events described in Luke 21, Matthew 24, and Mark 13 will not pass away before the end of Satan's system. This means the events in these chapters will not take 40 or more years to complete before the Lord will commence to reign.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Do you think Jesus will come back on a literal cloud or do you think it's figurative language where the clouds represent something like a cloud of witnesses or something of that sort?

 

[KJV1611]

I bring scriptures that correlate to the table, to which you deny by claiming them symbolizing faulty prophesy.
You are correct in that the Jews blindness will remain until the time of the gentile is completed (Revelation 11:2).
This 42 month period in which the gentile treads Jerusalem underfoot correlates with the abomination that maketh desolate (the gentile) invading and deslolating the land of Israel. Death and Hell coming over every morning by day and by night and daily taking a sacrifice of many lives (Isaiah 28:18-20).

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

Wasn't the covenant with death (Old Covenant) disannulled when Jesus came and gave them the New Covenant when he came the first time?

 

[ComeLordJesus]

People that say Daniel 9:27 has to do with Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 A.D. need to realize that it says a covenant will be confirmed for one week or 7yrs. Rome never confirmed a covenant of 7yrs. with Israel. So this passage does not show that 70 A.D. is what it is in reference to and it is still in the future.

 

[trofimus]

People that say Daniel 9:27 has to do with Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 A.D. need to realize that it says a covenant will be confirmed for one week or 7yrs. Rome never confirmed a covenant of 7yrs. with Israel. So this passage does not show that 70 A.D. is what it is in reference to and it is still in the future.

Or you are using a bad translation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I bring scriptures that correlate to the table, to which you deny by claiming them symbolizing faulty prophesy.
You are correct in that the Jews blindness will remain until the time of the gentile is completed (Revelation 11:2).
This 42 month period in which the gentile treads Jerusalem underfoot correlates with the abomination that maketh desolate (the gentile) invading and deslolating the land of Israel. Death and Hell coming over every morning by day and by night and daily taking a sacrifice of many lives (Isaiah 28:18-20).

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

No, your not getting the points I am trying to make, I am not denying them, I just do not agree with your interpretation of scripture. Or your interpretation of prophesy. And to say I am is just wrong dude, Thats uncalled for! And does not support your view.

Your making the abomination of desolation a symbolic event not a literal event.

In daniels day, In Jesus day, an abomination which makes desolate is an idol or unlcean thing placed in a most holy place, defiling the temple or makingn it ceremonially unclean, thus rendering it useless. So any interpretation which does not fit this defenition is not an interpretation we should be following

Rev 11:2 is not about the abomination, it is about what happens to Jerusalem and the temple AFTER the abomination is SEEN STANDING in the HOLY PLACE.


Matt 24: 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

Again, The abomination is an object, It is in a particualar place (the holy place) And it is something that can be seen, it is not a symbolic thing, it is literal.

Is 28 is a prophesy concerning Jesus, as a cornerstone which is rejected in Jesus day. Not sure what that has to do with the abomination of desolation or your point. .

 

[KJV1611]

People that say Daniel 9:27 has to do with Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 A.D. need to realize that it says a covenant will be confirmed for one week or 7yrs. Rome never confirmed a covenant of 7yrs. with Israel. So this passage does not show that 70 A.D. is what it is in reference to and it is still in the future.

I think Daniel 9:27 is Jesus confirming the covenant between God and Abraham.

 

[trofimus]

27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations...

Theodotion

 

[ComeLordJesus]

I think Daniel 9:27 is Jesus confirming the covenant between God and Abraham.

How in the world did you come up with that? Can you explain?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How in the world did you come up with that? Can you explain?

Who? And what did they come up with?

 

[trofimus]

Who? And what did they come up with?

You would know if you had not half of CC on your ignore list.

 

[ComeLordJesus]

Who? And what did they come up with?

KJV1611 said he thought Dan.9:27 was Jesus confirming the covenant between Abraham and and God.

 

[KJV1611]

How in the world did you come up with that? Can you explain?

To start with the grammar says it's Christ. The subject of verse 26 is the Messiah and the bit about the prince to come is a side note. Verse 27 continues with the subject of verse 26 which is Christ.

But the main reason I believe that is because Christ according to Paul confirmed the Abrahamic covenant.

Gal_3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Also when Christ was crucified he became the ultimate sacrifice and ended the need for animal sacrifices.

 

[trofimus]

Masoretic text:
26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he [Christ or the prince] shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he [Christ or the prince] shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease...

Theodotion:
26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one/Christ shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.
27 And one week [not said who will do it] shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away [not said by whom]...

Old Greek:
26 And after seven and seventy and sixty-two weeks, an anointing will be removed and will not be. And a king of nations will demolish the city and the sanctuary along with the anointed one, and his consummation will come with wrath even until the time of consummation. He will be attacked through war.
27 And the covenant will prevail for many, and it will return again and be rebuilt broad and long. [nothing about establishing some new covenant]

Vulgate:
26 And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain: and the people that shall deny him shall not be his. And a people, with their leader, that shall come, shall destroy the city, and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war the appointed desolation.
27 And he [Christ or the leader of army] shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week:
----

Its hard to discuss the prophecy when we actually do not know which version is right.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

KJV1611 said he thought Dan.9:27 was Jesus confirming the covenant between Abraham and and God.

Oh, I can not see what he says. Did he answer you? I have never heard that interpretation myself..