The Abomination of Desolation

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Nov 23, 2013
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So you are claiming that the Lord was referring to the then generation in the first century having witnessed all the events described in Mark 13; Luke 21; and Matthew 24; all of which before the end came?
If so, I see you are one who believes the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem as the end that came.
Do you realize that the Jews who remained in Jerusalem in 70 AD, were those who rejected Christ and had exiled all believers from the land of Judea years earlier (Acts 8:1)?
The faithless who were around in Jerusalem in 70AD were those upon whom the wrath of God came down hard upon (1 Thessalonians 2:15). Do you think the Lord in Mark 13; Luke 21; and Matthew 24, was providing warning to the faithless in 70 AD Jerusalem?

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
No I don't believe the end came at 70 AD, Israel came to an end but that's all. In Matthew 24 the disciples asked 3 question, when would the temple be destroyed, what would the sign of his coming and when would the end of the world be.

The temple was destroyed and Israel made desolate.
According to Matthew 10 Jesus came before the disciples preached to all the cities of Israel.
The world hasn't ended and I do believe Christ will return to rule and reign 1000 years.

So basically I believe the only thing that has happened is the kingdom was taken from Israel and Israel was destroyed and this time is called the time of Jacob's trouble. And Jesus brought in the kingdom of heaven.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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"and when would the end of the world be"

16 - you are relying on the KJV - the disciples asked when the end of the age would be not the end of the world:

Matt 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

Similarly in Hebrews the KJV has it incorrect:

(Heb 9:26 KJV) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
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The temple was destroyed and Israel made desolate.
Yes, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, but not every stone was cast down from atop the other (Mark 13:2; Matthew 24:2; & Luke 21:6). The current Wailing wall, the foundation to the temple still stands.

Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Luke 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
 

Locutus

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Feb 10, 2017
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So yer saying Christ got it wrong.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
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So yer saying Christ got it wrong.
No, the Lord did not get it wrong. The destruction of Jerusalem where not one stone of the current Wailing wall will be left atop the other is forthcoming, with the overflowing scourge that will pass through, morning by morning passing over, by day and by evening, taking a daily sacrifice of Israeli lives (Isaiah 28:18-20).

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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The current Wailing wall, the foundation to the temple still stands.
Its not the foundation to the temple, its just a wall that was (as Jews believe) around the temple. It is not a building and it was not a part of the temple.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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No, the Lord did not get it wrong. The destruction of Jerusalem where not one stone of the current Wailing wall will be left atop the other is forthcoming,.
How so - he actually pointed out the temple that was THEN standing:

Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things?

What yer doing is trying to fit Christ statement to something well into the future to fit in with your "theology"

(Mat 24:1 KJV) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.

They weren't showing Jesus some buildings 2000 years into the future, and Jesus was not speaking of buildings 2000 years into the the future.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
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Its not the foundation to the temple, its just a wall that was (as Jews believe) around the temple. It is not a building and it was not a part of the temple.
Even if it weren't a foundation wall to the temple (to which many Jews pray at its base believing it to be so), its large blocks would still have been the base to one of the very large edifices to which the Lord states: that not one stone of any of the great buildings would lie atop the other.

Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
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How so - he actually pointed out the temple that was THEN standing:

Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things?

What yer doing is trying to fit Christ statement to something well into the future to fit in with your "theology"

(Mat 24:1 KJV) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.

They weren't showing Jesus some buildings 2000 years into the future, and Jesus was not speaking of buildings 2000 years into the the future.
While it is well known that the Romans burned all of Jerusalem in 70 AD, they still did not go the trouble of casting down every huge boulder from atop the other, as this would have taken weeks, and numerous slave crews which they would have had to feed to do the labor.
This will be accomplished by daily aerial sorties as described in Isaiah 28:18-20.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Even if it weren't a foundation wall to the temple (to which many Jews pray at its base believing it to be so), its large blocks would still have been the base to one of the very large edifices to which the Lord states: that not one stone of any of the great buildings would lie atop the other.

Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Wall around the temple is not a building. Like a fence around your house is not a building.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
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Wall around the temple is not a building. Like a fence around your house is not a building.
It's a foundation wall, but even if it were only a wall, do you think the Lord would not have thought of that before coming up with the statement of not one stone standing atop another? Did the Romans say: This isn't a building wall, let's leave it alone and go work on the building walls?
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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Still no mention of a future temple - the disciples never answered "Oh you mean a temple 2000 years in the future".

A plain reading of the text gives the context - the 1st century AD:

(Mark 13:1 KJV) And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

(Mark 13:2 KJV) And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

All the statements are in accordance with Luke "compassed with armies" statement:

(Luke 21:6 KJV) As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

(Luke 21:20 KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

(Luke 21:32 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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It's a foundation wall, but even if it were only a wall, do you think the Lord would not have thought of that before coming up with the statement of not one stone standing atop another? Did the Romans say: This isn't a building wall, let's leave it alone and go work on the building walls?
Its not a foundation wall. Walls are not foundations, anyway.

Jesus was not mistaken.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
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Here are other scriptures I believe fit in with the upcoming overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:18-20 that shall destroy much of the Middle East, including the land of Israel.

Amos 6:8 The Lord God hath sworn by himself, saith the Lord the God of hosts, I abhor the excellency of Jacob, and hate his palaces: therefore will I deliver up the city with all that is therein.
9 And it shall come to pass, if there remain ten men in one house, that they shall die.
10 And a man's uncle shall take him up, and he that burneth him, to bring out the bones out of the house, and shall say unto him that is by the sides of the house, Is there yet any with thee? and he shall say, No. Then shall he say, Hold thy tongue: for we may not make mention of the name of the Lord.
11 For, behold, the Lord commandeth, and he will smite the great house with breaches, and the little house with clefts.

14 But, behold, I will raise up against you a nation, O house of Israel, saith the Lord the God of hosts; and they shall afflict you from the entering in of Hemath unto the river of the wilderness.
 

luigi

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Dec 6, 2015
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Still no mention of a future temple - the disciples never answered "Oh you mean a temple 2000 years in the future".

A plain reading of the text gives the context - the 1st century AD:

(Mark 13:1 KJV) And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

(Mark 13:2 KJV) And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

All the statements are in accordance with Luke "compassed with armies" statement:

(Luke 21:6 KJV) As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

(Luke 21:20 KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

(Luke 21:32 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
I agree, I see no mention of a future temple.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
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Its not a foundation wall. Walls are not foundations, anyway.

Jesus was not mistaken.
It still has great stones, part of a great structure that was not cast down.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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How can one see this standing in a holy place. And be a sign for people to see to cause them to run, because immediatly following this event, will be great tribulation?
I would offer. When the “time of reformation” was here 2000 years ago it was signaled by the words of Christ; “It is finished” this is when next Jesus of his own will gave up the Holy Spirit, returning to the father of Spirits as to its glory the graves were opened and many old testament saints entered the new heavenly Jerusalem as the bride of Christ .(the first resurrection)

The temporal use of temples made with human hands was no longer effective. The veil was rent. The new restored order had come. This was restored to the order from before the Jews had an outward representative as a kings ruling over men.

This is something that God sent a strong delusion to believe the lie. He gave those apostate Jews over to do what they should not of .

They who refused to hear his word as it is written demanded of Samuel the last Judge that they wanted to be like the other pagan nations of the world because of their jealousy of the things seen.

They did not want God reigning from heaven as a unseen entity .God gave them over again temporally to do what they should not of . That period of time was used as a parable for that time then present…..a way for the Holy Spirit to reveal the unseen spiritual understanding hid from natural man

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the "time of reformation". Hebrews 9

In the new order as this side of the reformation which we have today, as that in which we have for the last two thousand years... we no longer look to the temporal temple made of stone with the hands of men. But the new temple, the Spirit of Christ not made with the hands of men living in the new hearts of His new creation . This is in order to both will and perform His good pleasure (imputed righteousness and not in respect to the flesh as that seen

The motive of operation of the antichrists(many) is to stand in the unseen Holy place of God, placing a man in place of God not seen, insisting as a "law of men called a law of the fathers that we do need men seen, to teach us as if they were the promised unseen anointing Holy Spirit of Christ…...our unseen comforter and guide. We I believe are warned of the of the Abomination of Desolation the antichrists standing in the Holy place in 1 John2.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. (the warning) These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you/But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.1 John 2:8-27

That above I believe would give us the understanding as a warning of the of the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place (the unseen glory of God). It was that place as abomination of desolation standing in the Holy place of again that began the period of kings in Israel when they did not desire to walk by faith the unseen eternal .

A good example working in action in respect to of abomination of desolation standing in the Holy place is shown in Mathew 16:22. It is simply blasphemy. Which is contributing the work of one to another as the things of men that offend the unseen things of God .The same thing as Plagiarism on the highest scale.

Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy in respect the Son of man, Jesus (seen ). Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not seen is not forgivable

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.Mathew 16:22-23

Men as that seen standing in the unseen Holy place of the Holy Spirit, not seen .It would seem that Satan the father of lies moves men to believe it is still in the future as another of his lying sign and wonder
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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It still has great stones, part of a great structure that was not cast down.
And what is your point, btw?

a) Jesus was mistaken
b) Jesus spoke metaphorically, not technically about every stone in Jerusalem
c) gospel authors exaggerated Jesus's words
d) the gospel text was edited later to sound more like a total destruction of every detail
e) the datation of the wall is wrong
f) the theory of the origin of the wall is wrong

g) something else?
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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I think "not one stone" etc. is not to be taken precisely other than to mean a good demolition job.

Adam Clarke's commentary:

There shall not be left here one stone - These seem to have been the last words he spoke as he left the temple, into which he never afterwards entered; and, when he got to the mount of Olives, he renewed the discourse. From this mount, on which our Lord and his disciples now sat, the whole of the city, and particularly the temple, were clearly seen.

This part of our Lord's prediction was fulfilled in the most literal manner. Josephus says, War, book vii. c. 1: "Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the whole city and temple, τε πολιν απασαν και τον νεων κατασκεπτειν, except the three towers, Phaselus, Hippicus, and Mariamne, and a part of the western wall, and these were spared; but, for all the rest of the wall, it was laid so completely even with the ground, by those who dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited."

Maimonides, a Jewish rabbin, in Tract. Taanith, c. 4, says, "That the very foundations of the temple were digged up, according to the Roman custom." His words are these: "On that ninth day of the month Ab, fatal for vengeance, the wicked Turnus Rufus, of the children of Edom, ploughed up the temple, and the places round about it, that the saying might be fulfilled, Zion shall be ploughed as a field." This Turnus, or rather Terentius Rufus, was left general of the army by Titus, with commission, as the Jews suppose, to destroy the city and the temple, as Josephus observes.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

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I would offer. When the “time of reformation” was here 2000 years ago it was signaled by the words of Christ; “It is finished” this is when next Jesus of his own will gave up the Holy Spirit, returning to the father of Spirits as to its glory the graves were opened and many old testament saints entered the new heavenly Jerusalem as the bride of Christ .(the first resurrection)

The temporal use of temples made with human hands was no longer effective. The veil was rent. The new restored order had come. This was restored to the order from before the Jews had an outward representative as a kings ruling over men.

This is something that God sent a strong delusion to believe the lie. He gave those apostate Jews over to do what they should not of .

They who refused to hear his word as it is written demanded of Samuel the last Judge that they wanted to be like the other pagan nations of the world because of their jealousy of the things seen.

They did not want God reigning from heaven as a unseen entity .God gave them over again temporally to do what they should not of . That period of time was used as a parable for that time then present…..a way for the Holy Spirit to reveal the unseen spiritual understanding hid from natural man

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the "time of reformation". Hebrews 9

In the new order as this side of the reformation which we have today, as that in which we have for the last two thousand years... we no longer look to the temporal temple made of stone with the hands of men. But the new temple, the Spirit of Christ not made with the hands of men living in the new hearts of His new creation . This is in order to both will and perform His good pleasure (imputed righteousness and not in respect to the flesh as that seen

The motive of operation of the antichrists(many) is to stand in the unseen Holy place of God, placing a man in place of God not seen, insisting as a "law of men called a law of the fathers that we do need men seen, to teach us as if they were the promised unseen anointing Holy Spirit of Christ…...our unseen comforter and guide. We I believe are warned of the of the Abomination of Desolation the antichrists standing in the Holy place in 1 John2.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. (the warning) These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you/But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.1 John 2:8-27

That above I believe would give us the understanding as a warning of the of the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place (the unseen glory of God). It was that place as abomination of desolation standing in the Holy place of again that began the period of kings in Israel when they did not desire to walk by faith the unseen eternal .

A good example working in action in respect to of abomination of desolation standing in the Holy place is shown in Mathew 16:22. It is simply blasphemy. Which is contributing the work of one to another as the things of men that offend the unseen things of God .The same thing as Plagiarism on the highest scale.

Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy in respect the Son of man, Jesus (seen ). Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not seen is not forgivable

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.Mathew 16:22-23

Men as that seen standing in the unseen Holy place of the Holy Spirit, not seen .It would seem that Satan the father of lies moves men to believe it is still in the future as another of his lying sign and wonder
This did not answer my question, The blood of bulls and goats was always a symbol. It is no different today than it was when the temple was built.

Jesus said you would see the abomination STANING in the HOLY PLACE.

If it is not standing there, their can be no fulfilment.

Jesus did not symbolically fulfill th elaw. He fulfilled it. He fulfilled many prophesies concerning his first advent literally. Take precidence and interpret it literally. Otherwise it is useless.