The Abomination of Desolation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
495
84
28
And what is your point, btw?

a) Jesus was mistaken
b) Jesus spoke metaphorically, not technically about every stone in Jerusalem
c) gospel authors exaggerated Jesus's words
d) the gospel text was edited later to sound more like a total destruction of every detail
e) the datation of the wall is wrong
f) the theory of the origin of the wall is wrong

g) something else?
My point is it's a future event, still to come.
This is further supported by the other scriptures I've posted (Isaiah 28:18-20; & Amos 6:8-11 &14), which call for a great sacrifice in the land of Israel.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
495
84
28
I think "not one stone" etc. is not to be taken precisely other than to mean a good demolition job.

Adam Clarke's commentary:

There shall not be left here one stone - These seem to have been the last words he spoke as he left the temple, into which he never afterwards entered; and, when he got to the mount of Olives, he renewed the discourse. From this mount, on which our Lord and his disciples now sat, the whole of the city, and particularly the temple, were clearly seen.

This part of our Lord's prediction was fulfilled in the most literal manner. Josephus says, War, book vii. c. 1: "Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the whole city and temple, τε πολιν απασαν και τον νεων κατασκεπτειν, except the three towers, Phaselus, Hippicus, and Mariamne, and a part of the western wall, and these were spared; but, for all the rest of the wall, it was laid so completely even with the ground, by those who dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited."

Maimonides, a Jewish rabbin, in Tract. Taanith, c. 4, says, "That the very foundations of the temple were digged up, according to the Roman custom." His words are these: "On that ninth day of the month Ab, fatal for vengeance, the wicked Turnus Rufus, of the children of Edom, ploughed up the temple, and the places round about it, that the saying might be fulfilled, Zion shall be ploughed as a field." This Turnus, or rather Terentius Rufus, was left general of the army by Titus, with commission, as the Jews suppose, to destroy the city and the temple, as Josephus observes.
I take the Lord literally to mean not one stone atop another.
Aerial sorties flying over morning after morning, by day and by night over a period of months is probably what is indicated by Isaiah 28:18-20 that will accomplish this task.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
2,835
1,978
113
Hi!

Do you believe that the kingdom came in a spiritual sense at Pentecost? I believe yes.
Do you believe that the kingdom will come in a literal, physical sense SOON to Earth? I believe yes.

Also, what does that photo of yours say? "american sol".
My guess is you are a military guy and it says SOLDIER! Am i right?

Also one more thing if you dont mind sir: Do you believe the gospel of the grace of God and the gospel of the kingdom is the same thing?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
3,089
499
83
How so - he actually pointed out the temple that was THEN standing:

Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things?

What yer doing is trying to fit Christ statement to something well into the future to fit in with your "theology"

(Mat 24:1 KJV) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.

They weren't showing Jesus some buildings 2000 years into the future, and Jesus was not speaking of buildings 2000 years into the the future.
So when Jesus said "destroy this temple and i will raise it up in three days.." was He really claiming to be a mason or even a carpenter?!!

Of course Jesus was not speaking of any building not even the one 2000 years ago.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
3,089
499
83
Still no mention of a future temple - the disciples never answered "Oh you mean a temple 2000 years in the future".

A plain reading of the text gives the context - the 1st century AD:

(Mark 13:1 KJV) And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

(Mark 13:2 KJV) And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

All the statements are in accordance with Luke "compassed with armies" statement:

(Luke 21:6 KJV) As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

(Luke 21:20 KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

(Luke 21:32 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
3,089
499
83
I agree, I see no mention of a future temple.
Eph 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
 
Apr 1, 2018
69
14
8
Good point bro! Many have not thought of this. (BY MANY IM LOOKING AT YOU PRETERISTS!!)

Think about this too: how can the world see the two witnesses without current technology?
Well how can something be seen from different generations unless its been there all along and if its been there all along and its still there now are we blind to not see it
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
675
113

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
4,298
417
83
Well how can something be seen from different generations unless its been there all along and if its been there all along and its still there now are we blind to not see it

lol,Genesis 2:4 ,,,generations ,aeon...
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,067
824
113
I think "not one stone" etc. is not to be taken precisely other than to mean a good demolition job.
.

Yes it would seem that Christians are typyed as "lively stones" or pliable hearts because they were hewn from the Rock, Christ. Upon him is the spiritual unseen house of God built that the gates of hell could never prevail against. The reformation is over, the shadows have become the representative glory of God in 1 Peter 1:11, the graves were opened. It is the new manner of time that the Spirit of Christ revealed. The time of first resurrection had its beginning. No need for a temple made with human hands as new creatures. We are considered the temple made up of as if we are lively stones. Whose hard hearts have ben made softer by the love of our savior working in us

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow 1 Peter 1:9-11

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

It seemed the fathers (two kinds) as part of the Pharisees sect violated the warning to call no man on earth father on earth as that seen the temporal...…. for one is our father in heaven . They were looking to the flesh of Abraham as those who walk by sight after the oral traditions of men . they refused to believe all things written in the law and the prophets. those kind of father made the word of God without effect by their oral traditions

Christ as one of the "think not" doctrines speaks of the lively stones that he creates to build his spiritual house on, the church

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham" to our father": for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

I would offer that we would rather have our living God as "to our father", not seen .We walk by faith and not by sight. we look to the bosom of Abraham as the invisible presence of our Rock, Christ. Abraham a name that means the father of many nations (all). Not the fleshly Abraham to our father. Giving glory to the things seen like venerating the flesh in Catholicism. That would be the abomination standing in the holy place (robbing the unseen glory of God)
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
775
113
My point is it's a future event, still to come.
This is further supported by the other scriptures I've posted (Isaiah 28:18-20; & Amos 6:8-11 &14), which call for a great sacrifice in the land of Israel.
But Jesus was talking about the temple they were viewing, thats the context of the text.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
775
113
Good point bro! Many have not thought of this. (BY MANY IM LOOKING AT YOU PRETERISTS!!)

Think about this too: how can the world see the two witnesses without current technology?
Think about this: How can those who pierced Christ see Him in His coming? (They will not be resurrected before His coming).

Also, "every eye will see Him" will everybody sit before their television, every individual, in that moment?

We should be careful to take things too literally and technologically. That was not how they thought in those days.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
775
113
John 2:19 Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.”

Viewing a temple doesn't necessarily mean He was talking about that temple.
I was talking about another verse and about another context.

"And as some were speaking about the temple, that it was adorned with goodly stones and consecrated gifts, He said, “As to these things which you are beholding, the days will come in which no stone will be left upon a stone, which will not be thrown down.”
Lk 21:5
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
3,089
499
83
I was talking about another verse and about another context.
I know, just pointing out an obvious error in your assumption because even in this verse, Jesus was talking about a temple that they were all viewing.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
3,089
499
83
No error. Read Luke 21:5.
I have just gone through it, i don't see anything:

Luke 21:
5Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6“As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”

7“Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

8He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.

10Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

They thought He was speaking of that physical temple just like in Jon 2, but they were wrong.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
775
113
I have just gone through it, i don't see anything:

Luke 21:
5Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6“As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
...
They thought He was speaking of that physical temple just like in Jon 2, but they were wrong.
The text is so clear, there is no explanation by the author that Jesus was speaking about his body like in the gospel of John.