Are You Believing a Heresy? You Might According to a New Study
- Thread starter Lillywolf
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
And then there are the twelve tribes of Israel which will be a believing remnant on earth and settled in the land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Christians should get rid of this false idea called Replacement Theology. It makes a mockery of Bible prophecies and is not even true.
Christians should get rid of this false idea called Replacement Theology. It makes a mockery of Bible prophecies and is not even true.
-
1
- Show all
No.
Daniel's 70 weeks are part of a much larger time prophecy (Daniel 8:13-14,26, 9:13-15, 10:6, 14:6-12, etc) but the 70 weeks themselves are already completed, in AD 34, as per Hebrews 2:3; Romans 15:8:
You are incorrect on the timeframe. The 70 weeks do not reach unto the 2nd Advent. They reached unto the 1st Advent. This may be demonstrated in some thorough detail.
Daniel's 70 weeks are part of a much larger time prophecy (Daniel 8:13-14,26, 9:13-15, 10:6, 14:6-12, etc) but the 70 weeks themselves are already completed, in AD 34, as per Hebrews 2:3; Romans 15:8:
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Heb_9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb_10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord (beginning 6 months after John the Baptist (AD 26, in AD 27 (483 years (69 weeks) from 457 BC)) 3 1/2 years, cut off in the midst of the week, AD 31), and was confirmed (3 1/2 more years unto Stephen in AD 34) unto us by them that heard him (Acts 1 and onward unto Acts 7);
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
They (70 weeks, 490 years) began in 457 BC, in the 7th Year of Artaxerxes I Longimanus/Machrocheir, as per scripture, Daniel 9:25; Ezra 6:14 ("the commandment"), and Ezra 7, not only by scripture, by historo-chronology, including astrochronology. The date is fixed in history.You are incorrect on the timeframe. The 70 weeks do not reach unto the 2nd Advent. They reached unto the 1st Advent. This may be demonstrated in some thorough detail.
Jesus Christ is Israel (Revelation 3:21; John 16:33). Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; and His children are His disciples, Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33. The prophets and apostles of God, by the Holy Ghost said so.
2Co_1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Co_1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Now kindly pay CLOSE ATTENTION to what Daniel prophesied and forget about your fantasies:
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Dan 9:24)
What does it mean "to bring in everlasting righteousness" -- on earth and in Israel?
Does it mean -- or does it not mean -- exactly what it says? Eternal and everlasting righteousness and peace upon the whole earth.
And has that actually happened or are we living in a time of universal conflict and wickedness???
This can only happen after the second coming of Christ, which can only happen after the 70th week of Daniel is fulfilled in the future.
Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment. (Isa 32:1)
For unto us a child [CHRIST] is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Isa 9:6,7)
And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away. (Isa 35:10)
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Dan 9:24)
What does it mean "to bring in everlasting righteousness" -- on earth and in Israel?
Does it mean -- or does it not mean -- exactly what it says? Eternal and everlasting righteousness and peace upon the whole earth.
And has that actually happened or are we living in a time of universal conflict and wickedness???
This can only happen after the second coming of Christ, which can only happen after the 70th week of Daniel is fulfilled in the future.
Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment. (Isa 32:1)
For unto us a child [CHRIST] is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Isa 9:6,7)
And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away. (Isa 35:10)
It seems you do not like immediate context and choose what you will of it:
Are the "four beasts" also redeemed in your view? They would have to be included in your understanding, since they are connected by "kai" (and).
It is folly to confuse the "us" of verse 9 with either the 4 beasts or 24 elders, rather than the "saints" (which are another group entirely from either the 4 beasts or 24 elders). It also would deny the other evidences I gave. I would asky ou to re-read carefully and re-compare all the places in scripture which speak of those 4 Beasts and Elders (Ancients). They are not human. They have never fallen, as humans have.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Are the "four beasts" also redeemed in your view? They would have to be included in your understanding, since they are connected by "kai" (and).
It is folly to confuse the "us" of verse 9 with either the 4 beasts or 24 elders, rather than the "saints" (which are another group entirely from either the 4 beasts or 24 elders). It also would deny the other evidences I gave. I would asky ou to re-read carefully and re-compare all the places in scripture which speak of those 4 Beasts and Elders (Ancients). They are not human. They have never fallen, as humans have.
Jesus Christ (who is Israel*) has already brought in Everlasting Righteousness. He was the foundation stone, upon which all the Temple is built.
Everlasting righteousness began with Jesus.
Jesus stood up in AD 34 [Acts 7:55-56 KJB], the end of the 70 weeks, in Daniel 9, and thus the close of the probation of the Jews as a nation, the sanhedrin, having rejected the Head and the body. He will so stand again [Daniel 12:1; Luke 13:25; Revelation 22:11 KJB, etc]
AD 27 + 3 1/2 = AD 31; crucifixion. The first of the final week of the 70 weeks, as Jesus told Peter [Matthew 18:22 KJB]
AD 31 + 3 1/2 = AD 34; Stephen martyred. End of the 70 weeks, as we see in Hebrews 2:3; Roamns 15:8 KJB
Parallels [the short version, two rainbows]:
Jesus in AD 27 Anointed with the Holy Ghost, ministry 3 1/2 years, miracles, taken captive AD 31, rejected by the sanhedrin, condemned to death, dies outside the city
Disciples/Apostles in AD 31 anointed with the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, ministry 3 1/2 years, miracles, Stephen is taken captive AD 34, rejected by the sanhedrin, condemned to death, dies outside of the city.
Through Christ Jesus, it is the end of sin, He brought in everlasting righteousness, reconciliation, etc.
* Jesus Christ is Israel (Revelation 3:21; John 16:33). Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; and His children are His disciples, Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33. The prophets and apostles of God, by the Holy Ghost said so.
2Co_1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Everlasting righteousness began with Jesus.
Jesus stood up in AD 34 [Acts 7:55-56 KJB], the end of the 70 weeks, in Daniel 9, and thus the close of the probation of the Jews as a nation, the sanhedrin, having rejected the Head and the body. He will so stand again [Daniel 12:1; Luke 13:25; Revelation 22:11 KJB, etc]
AD 27 + 3 1/2 = AD 31; crucifixion. The first of the final week of the 70 weeks, as Jesus told Peter [Matthew 18:22 KJB]
AD 31 + 3 1/2 = AD 34; Stephen martyred. End of the 70 weeks, as we see in Hebrews 2:3; Roamns 15:8 KJB
Parallels [the short version, two rainbows]:
Jesus in AD 27 Anointed with the Holy Ghost, ministry 3 1/2 years, miracles, taken captive AD 31, rejected by the sanhedrin, condemned to death, dies outside the city
Disciples/Apostles in AD 31 anointed with the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, ministry 3 1/2 years, miracles, Stephen is taken captive AD 34, rejected by the sanhedrin, condemned to death, dies outside of the city.
Daniel 9:27 KJB - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Hebrews 10:12 KJB - But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Hebrews 10:26 KJB - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 2:3 KJB - How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Romans 15:8 KJB - Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Through Christ Jesus, it is the end of sin, He brought in everlasting righteousness, reconciliation, etc.
Matthew 1:21 KJB - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Hebrews 9:26 KJB - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
2 Corinthians 5:18 KJB - And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2 Corinthians 5:19 KJB - To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Hebrews 2:17 KJB - Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Joh_4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
Joh_5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh_19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
1Pe_4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
Heb_1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
2Co_9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
Rom_3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
* Jesus Christ is Israel (Revelation 3:21; John 16:33). Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; and His children are His disciples, Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33. The prophets and apostles of God, by the Holy Ghost said so.
2Co_1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
-
1
- Show all
If I could offer another way of looking at it. I think the......on earth and in Israel..... would depend of which Israel is in view seeing not all is Israel is Israel as the bride of Christ . Two choices. Israel as a inward Jew born of the Spirit of Christ, a new creation . Or a Jew in respect to the outward flesh as in natural unconverted man (no faith)?
I would also offer to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins was witnessed the moment Christ said; "it is finished and gave up the Holy Spirit of Christ" the graves were opened and many disembodied born again spirits left the earthly Jerusalem, and entered Zion the heavenly city, prepared as the wife of Christ
Eternal and everlasting righteousness is not the same as Eternal and everlasting righteousness and peace.
Eternal righteousness does not guarantee eternal peace at least not in this world. In this world we are promised tribulation., as a sign of the times there will be wars and rumors of war right up till the last day. When men say peace, peace then will come sudden destruction like a thief in the night.
I think it was designed that way. In that perhaps men might seek after God as he draws them nearer revealing that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood as that which could never enter the new heaven and earth the kingdom of God
And has that actually happened or are we living in a time of universal conflict and wickedness???
I would suggest that Christ is the prince of peace and he is ruling and therefore reigning with his people (Christians) working in there hearts as he sends them out with the gospel according to the good pleasure of His word with the promise...……….. the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform it
The Zion in the verse you offered above represents the heavenly city or kingdom of heaven. She is called the new Jerusalem as he bride of Christ. Her joy will not be taken away it is everlasting. the former thing are gone .
Revelation 21:4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Daniel 12:1 says, "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: …" (see also Rev12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought against his angels.")
Are you saying that Jesus is "Michael"?
I appreciate what Gaebelein says here:
[quoting]
"But we shall see now what is meant by the deliverance of Daniel’s people.
Physical resurrection (as so often stated: a general resurrection) is not taught in the second verse. Physical resurrection is used as a figure of the national revival of Israel in that day. They have been sleeping nationally in the dust of the earth, buried among the Gentiles. But at that time there will take place a national restoration, a bringing together of the house of Judah and of Israel. It is the same figure as used in the vision of the dry bones in Ezekiel 37:1-28. This vision is employed by the men, who have invented the theory of a second chance and larger hope for the wicked dead to back up their evil teaching, but anyone can see that it concerns not the Gentiles but the Jewish people and that it is not a bodily resurrection, but a national revival and restoration of that people. Their national graves, not literal burying places, will be opened and the Lord will bring them forth out of all the countries into which they have been scattered."
[end quoting]
see also Rev11:15, etc...
Are you saying that Jesus is "Michael"?
I appreciate what Gaebelein says here:
[quoting]
"But we shall see now what is meant by the deliverance of Daniel’s people.
Physical resurrection (as so often stated: a general resurrection) is not taught in the second verse. Physical resurrection is used as a figure of the national revival of Israel in that day. They have been sleeping nationally in the dust of the earth, buried among the Gentiles. But at that time there will take place a national restoration, a bringing together of the house of Judah and of Israel. It is the same figure as used in the vision of the dry bones in Ezekiel 37:1-28. This vision is employed by the men, who have invented the theory of a second chance and larger hope for the wicked dead to back up their evil teaching, but anyone can see that it concerns not the Gentiles but the Jewish people and that it is not a bodily resurrection, but a national revival and restoration of that people. Their national graves, not literal burying places, will be opened and the Lord will bring them forth out of all the countries into which they have been scattered."
[end quoting]
see also Rev11:15, etc...
All the main Reformers of the Reformation, and even as far back in history as Melito of Sardis (Archangel).
You may find those quotations with official book citations here, see Chapter 11, and Appendix 2 - **link removed**
The list includes such notable people as Martin Luther, Philip Melanchthon, Hengstenberg, Jean Calvin, John Wesley; Adam Clarke, Faribairn, Deodati; John Gill, Charles Spurgeon, Isaac Watts, 1599/1560 Geneva Bible, historians, scientists, many dictionaries, concordances, etc Lutherans, Calvinists, Baptists, Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Millerites, Adventists, 7th day Adventists; Non Conformist, Scientists; Scholars, Linguists, Bible translators and many others, all basically (some slight differences in detail depending) teaching that Jesus is Michael (Deity), the Uncreated Son of the Father, the Highest Messenger of the Father's Love.
I may cite any person you desire on the list in full in original language where available.
You may find those quotations with official book citations here, see Chapter 11, and Appendix 2 - **link removed**
The list includes such notable people as Martin Luther, Philip Melanchthon, Hengstenberg, Jean Calvin, John Wesley; Adam Clarke, Faribairn, Deodati; John Gill, Charles Spurgeon, Isaac Watts, 1599/1560 Geneva Bible, historians, scientists, many dictionaries, concordances, etc Lutherans, Calvinists, Baptists, Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Millerites, Adventists, 7th day Adventists; Non Conformist, Scientists; Scholars, Linguists, Bible translators and many others, all basically (some slight differences in detail depending) teaching that Jesus is Michael (Deity), the Uncreated Son of the Father, the Highest Messenger of the Father's Love.
I may cite any person you desire on the list in full in original language where available.
Last edited by a moderator:
^ EDIT: I was called away from my computer in an urgent matter before I had the chance to correct the last Scripture reference, which should read: "Rom11:15" (not Rev11:15)
"For if the casting away of them [Israel] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" (paralleling all the passages, like Dan12:1-4,10 and Ezek37:12-14,20-23 and Hos5:15-6:3 and more... all regarding Israel's FUTURE)
"For if the casting away of them [Israel] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" (paralleling all the passages, like Dan12:1-4,10 and Ezek37:12-14,20-23 and Hos5:15-6:3 and more... all regarding Israel's FUTURE)
If you are saying these people in your list, Reformers and others, believe the angel Michael is Jesus, you are out of your mind. I’ve read so many of these theologians, and that is the last thing any of these strong Trinitarians would ever say!
Your JW leaders have sure brain washed you to believe a lie.
Jesus is God. One of the three persons or hypostasis of the Triune God. I pray God shows you the truth one day!
Your JW leaders have sure brain washed you to believe a lie.
Jesus is God. One of the three persons or hypostasis of the Triune God. I pray God shows you the truth one day!
-
1
- Show all
No, the four beasts are not redeemed, just the twenty four elders. The four beasts, as with the angels, speak but don't sing. (Rev. 4:8), (5:12). The only time we are told that angels sang was at the creation of the universe before the fall of satan. (Job 38:7) The 24 elders do both speak and sing in worship. (4:10-11) (5:9) (5:11-12)
Thus (Rev. 5:9) is speaking to the 24 elders only.
You also see the 24 elders as clothed in white raiment. (Rev. 4:4) Being clothed in white speaks to being clothed in the righteousness of Christ. And the Church is clothed in the righteousness of Christ. (Rev. 3:4-5) (19:7-8)
You also see the 24 elders having crowns of gold upon their heads. Crowns are for rewards after a judgment. (1Cor. 9:25) So it shows that the 24 elders have experienced a judgment already, having been clothed in white and receiving crowns. And at this point in time the judgement of angels hasn't taken place.
Thus because the 24 elders have been redeemed, have been clothed in white, have received rewards of crowns, I believe they are of the human race and not angels.
Quantrill
Thus (Rev. 5:9) is speaking to the 24 elders only.
You also see the 24 elders as clothed in white raiment. (Rev. 4:4) Being clothed in white speaks to being clothed in the righteousness of Christ. And the Church is clothed in the righteousness of Christ. (Rev. 3:4-5) (19:7-8)
You also see the 24 elders having crowns of gold upon their heads. Crowns are for rewards after a judgment. (1Cor. 9:25) So it shows that the 24 elders have experienced a judgment already, having been clothed in white and receiving crowns. And at this point in time the judgement of angels hasn't taken place.
Thus because the 24 elders have been redeemed, have been clothed in white, have received rewards of crowns, I believe they are of the human race and not angels.
Quantrill
Read the material for they as listed (in general) indeed teach and document that Jesus is Michael ("(Deity), the Uncreated Son of the Father, the Highest Messenger of the Father's Love."). I know that you have not, since I can see the counter for DL has not increased.
I am not a JW, never have been and stated that already in another location. In fact the WTS/JW have a semi Roman Catholic, semi-Reformationist position on the subject.
Jesus is the Person/Being of the Son, Uncreated and eternal Deity, God (not the Person/Being of the Father, neither the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost). Michael is one of His many names in scripture. See the material.
Please actually take the time to read my response and the material in the DL, which I can also tell, you did not carefully do.
I am not a JW, never have been and stated that already in another location. In fact the WTS/JW have a semi Roman Catholic, semi-Reformationist position on the subject.
Jesus is the Person/Being of the Son, Uncreated and eternal Deity, God (not the Person/Being of the Father, neither the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost). Michael is one of His many names in scripture. See the material.
Please actually take the time to read my response and the material in the DL, which I can also tell, you did not carefully do.