Chronic worrying.

[Clear_River]

Okay, a little introduction about me and my mental health. Since the age 12, I had always had an obsessional worry that sometimes produces unwanted thoughts, mental images and feelings for example at the age 12 I had unwanted thoughts about God & Jesus to the point not wanted to pray, see images or go to church without triggering a disgusting thought. Then, later on, I start worrying about committing the unpardonable sins. (I still think about once in a while) somewhere either on mid-2014 or 2015 I overcame the unwanted thoughts and feelings relating to Jesus and god and then I developed a fear of being about a pedophile too the point I stop interacting or barely interacted with family members that had young children and hated going to areas that had children nearby even as far as not watching movies that contain children. Which in turn affected my social skills. I overcame the fear of being a pedophile in late 2017 along with few others. Now my anxiety is 10x times worse than before to point it's sometimes plain stupid like fear of food and yellow or worrying about having early onset Alzheimer's even tho I am 17 years old and many many more that come and goes even the fears I had overcome. As of now, I am highly hypervigilant of what I say, do think, behave, and my thought process and feelings. My main fear is being a sociopath but my obsessional fears go back and forth in a matter of minutes, hours or days.

 

[Just_kendra]

You may be a Christian empath like me. It seems like unknowingly you pick up other people emotions.

 

[Angela53510]

I think 12 is the onset of puberty. So, that is probably why it started then. As for the OCD, obsessions and so forth, you really need to see a doctor and psychatrist. And a therapist. You really are quite mentally ill, and they can train you to not obsess like this. Also, there are meds that help with your condition.

I would love to say God will help you, and he does have to be part of the process. But what you are talking about is not spirtual, but psychological. I do hope you get help, and soon. The longer you obsess the deeper the ruts in your brain, and the harder to get out of this pattern of thoughts.

 

[Solemateleft]

Clear_River,
welcome to cc. It is both good that you are aware of your inner battles, and brave of you to seek support. You are likely to receive lots of advice and support - I pray that you find the help that your heart so desperately desires. I pray that you have a support group at your local church or a spiritual leader that you can consult with for personal support. I also pray that you seek (or continue) professional counseling - to ensure you receive an extensive diagnostic in order to begin to receive the best treatment possible for your troubles.
God Bless

 

[TabinRivCA]

Okay, a little introduction about me and my mental health. Since the age 12, I had always had an obsessional worry that sometimes produces unwanted thoughts, mental images and feelings for example at the age 12 I had unwanted thoughts about God & Jesus to the point not wanted to pray, see images or go to church without triggering a disgusting thought. Then, later on, I start worrying about committing the unpardonable sins. (I still think about once in a while) somewhere either on mid-2014 or 2015 I overcame the unwanted thoughts and feelings relating to Jesus and god and then I developed a fear of being about a pedophile too the point I stop interacting or barely interacted with family members that had young children and hated going to areas that had children nearby even as far as not watching movies that contain children. Which in turn affected my social skills. I overcame the fear of being a pedophile in late 2017 along with few others. Now my anxiety is 10x times worse than before to point it's sometimes plain stupid like fear of food and yellow or worrying about having early onset Alzheimer's even tho I am 17 years old and many many more that come and goes even the fears I had overcome. As of now, I am highly hypervigilant of what I say, do think, behave, and my thought process and feelings. My main fear is being a sociopath but my obsessional fears go back and forth in a matter of minutes, hours or days.

Get involved in a Church you like, ask for believers to bind all evil spirits, and listen to messages on the areas you need direction in. A great old-timer w/on-line vids on healing, answered prayer, etc is Kenneth Hagin Sr.

 

[Subhumanoidal]

@Clear_River

I think 12 is the onset of puberty. So, that is probably why it started then. As for the OCD, obsessions and so forth, you really need to see a doctor and psychatrist. And a therapist. You really are quite mentally ill, and they can train you to not obsess like this. Also, there are meds that help with your condition.

I would love to say God will help you, and he does have to be part of the process. But what you are talking about is not spirtual, but psychological. I do hope you get help, and soon. The longer you obsess the deeper the ruts in your brain, and the harder to get out of this pattern of thoughts.

I'm copying this response because it's the best one. This certainly sounds like OCD, and if it is going to church or watching false teachers on YT won't help. Nor does this have anything to do with empathy.
As stated you need to have a professional diagnosis but OCD certainly sounds right.

 

[TabinRivCA]

@Clear_River

I'm copying this response because it's the best one. This certainly sounds like OCD, and if it is going to church or watching false teachers on YT won't help. Nor does this have anything to do with empathy.
As stated you need to have a professional diagnosis but OCD certainly sounds right.

There is eternal empathy in the shed Blood of Jesus, 'By His stripes we are healed'. But one has to believe in it first. So what if Kenneth Hagin Sr, a great old-time healer/teacher/preacher with miracles and signs following has tapes on YT. I trust in the power of God's promises to heal not secular practitioners, and He does heal all the time...to believers.

 

[theanointedsinner]

Okay, a little introduction about me and my mental health. Since the age 12, I had always had an obsessional worry that sometimes produces unwanted thoughts, mental images and feelings for example at the age 12 I had unwanted thoughts about God & Jesus to the point not wanted to pray, see images or go to church without triggering a disgusting thought. Then, later on, I start worrying about committing the unpardonable sins. (I still think about once in a while) somewhere either on mid-2014 or 2015 I overcame the unwanted thoughts and feelings relating to Jesus and god and then I developed a fear of being about a pedophile too the point I stop interacting or barely interacted with family members that had young children and hated going to areas that had children nearby even as far as not watching movies that contain children. Which in turn affected my social skills. I overcame the fear of being a pedophile in late 2017 along with few others. Now my anxiety is 10x times worse than before to point it's sometimes plain stupid like fear of food and yellow or worrying about having early onset Alzheimer's even tho I am 17 years old and many many more that come and goes even the fears I had overcome. As of now, I am highly hypervigilant of what I say, do think, behave, and my thought process and feelings. My main fear is being a sociopath but my obsessional fears go back and forth in a matter of minutes, hours or days.

here's a thought that might help:

anytime you are worried about something, and you found out your worry doesn't happen, give thanks to God out of temporary relief

consider how great God's love is, when God reject's Satan's crazy request for God's permission

in the book of Job, Satan has to ask God's permission,
who can know how many of those crazy request God said no to?

that can help us meditate and be thankful of God's protective love for you as well

and thank God for love, hope that helps

 

[Subhumanoidal]

There is eternal empathy in the shed Blood of Jesus, 'By His stripes we are healed'. But one has to believe in it first. So what if Kenneth Hagin Sr, a great old-time healer/teacher/preacher with miracles and signs following has tapes on YT. I trust in the power of God's promises to heal not secular practitioners, and He does heal all the time...to believers.

No, hes an occult teacher under a biblical guise.
And healing can come from various sources. To dismiss healing from other sources is a lack of wisdom.
Also there Are Christian psychologists.
Bu his stripes we are healed. Read it in context. It's not physical healing.
Eternal empathy? Never read that in the bible. Nor does empathy have to do with OCD.

 

[Davenport]

Clear River, have you looked into medication for your anxiety?

A brain is easy to drive, but hard to steer. Over time, you've wired your brain in some nasty fashion and it will take years to fix, once you figure out how to fix it. I can tell you how to fix it, but whether you follow through or not is up to you.

Okay, a little introduction about me and my mental health. Since the age 12, I had always had an obsessional worry that sometimes produces unwanted thoughts, mental images and feelings for example at the age 12 I had unwanted thoughts about God & Jesus to the point not wanted to pray, see images or go to church without triggering a disgusting thought. Then, later on, I start worrying about committing the unpardonable sins. (I still think about once in a while) somewhere either on mid-2014 or 2015 I overcame the unwanted thoughts and feelings relating to Jesus and god and then I developed a fear of being about a pedophile too the point I stop interacting or barely interacted with family members that had young children and hated going to areas that had children nearby even as far as not watching movies that contain children. Which in turn affected my social skills. I overcame the fear of being a pedophile in late 2017 along with few others. Now my anxiety is 10x times worse than before to point it's sometimes plain stupid like fear of food and yellow or worrying about having early onset Alzheimer's even tho I am 17 years old and many many more that come and goes even the fears I had overcome. As of now, I am highly hypervigilant of what I say, do think, behave, and my thought process and feelings. My main fear is being a sociopath but my obsessional fears go back and forth in a matter of minutes, hours or days.

 

[Angela53510]

There is eternal empathy in the shed Blood of Jesus, 'By His stripes we are healed'. But one has to believe in it first. So what if Kenneth Hagin Sr, a great old-time healer/teacher/preacher with miracles and signs following has tapes on YT. I trust in the power of God's promises to heal not secular practitioners, and He does heal all the time...to believers.

One of my closest friends and a former mentor became an ordained pastor with Kenneth Copeland. She believed his garbage, hook, line and sinker. Then she got breast cancer. As a minister, Kenneth Copeland ministries prayed with her, and encouraged her to hold onto he healing.

The doctors made her have a masectomy, but she claimed healing, and didn't have chemo or radiation. Why go through that, when you are already healed? She had a growing church, and they prayed for her. They had healing meetings and prayed for her. They believed for her, for a miracle healing, as she believed and claimed that healing.

A year later, the cancer metastasized to her brain. She went insane, and died soon after. There are no real healings in these pseudoteachers ministries. Just manufactured ones, while the people who are really sick, die.

My friend should still be alive, but she is dead. She died for a principle that was not Biblical, but the doctrines of evil, greedy men.

Another friend, who also followed Kenneth Copeland and believed in healing. He had his congregation pray for healing from an enlarged prostate. Some days he felt better, but it was all Placebo Effect. He finally collapsed in his own home, and couldn't even get to the phone. But, God was with him and that a close Christian friend, who did not believe in name it and claim it, dropped by. He was rushed to the ER, had surgery, and now, 15 years later, he is alive, preaching the gospel to anyone who will listen, at the age of 88. He also says, "God uses doctors."

A hard lesson for him, but better than dying like the other friend. Word Faith is quite simply a heresy. If you want me to show you why, from the Bible, we can do that, too! But not on this thread, but probably the BDF would be better.

 

[Craigb513]

This is the devils work he is responsible he is trying to trick tou into a life of sin. Stay true to jesus and pray to him and you will be healed ot is the only thing you can do

 

[TabinRivCA]

One of my closest friends and a former mentor became an ordained pastor with Kenneth Copeland. She believed his garbage, hook, line and sinker. Then she got breast cancer. As a minister, Kenneth Copeland ministries prayed with her, and encouraged her to hold onto he healing.

The doctors made her have a masectomy, but she claimed healing, and didn't have chemo or radiation. Why go through that, when you are already healed? She had a growing church, and they prayed for her. They had healing meetings and prayed for her. They believed for her, for a miracle healing, as she believed and claimed that healing.

A year later, the cancer metastasized to her brain. She went insane, and died soon after. There are no real healings in these pseudoteachers ministries. Just manufactured ones, while the people who are really sick, die.

My friend should still be alive, but she is dead. She died for a principle that was not Biblical, but the doctrines of evil, greedy men.

Another friend, who also followed Kenneth Copeland and believed in healing. He had his congregation pray for healing from an enlarged prostate. Some days he felt better, but it was all Placebo Effect. He finally collapsed in his own home, and couldn't even get to the phone. But, God was with him and that a close Christian friend, who did not believe in name it and claim it, dropped by. He was rushed to the ER, had surgery, and now, 15 years later, he is alive, preaching the gospel to anyone who will listen, at the age of 88. He also says, "God uses doctors."

A hard lesson for him, but better than dying like the other friend. Word Faith is quite simply a heresy. If you want me to show you why, from the Bible, we can do that, too! But not on this thread, but probably the BDF would be better.

Kenneth Hagin Sr, who I referred to was known for healing, as Kathryn Kuhlman, Smith Wigglesworth, and countless others. Jesus went around healing, Mk 5:34 + everyone else, and said we (believers) would do greater things than him. There are so many Scriptures on healing and miracles that I perceive as literal but I certainly wouldn't force anyone else to.

 

[TabinRivCA]

No, hes an occult teacher under a biblical guise.
And healing can come from various sources. To dismiss healing from other sources is a lack of wisdom.
Also there Are Christian psychologists.
Bu his stripes we are healed. Read it in context. It's not physical healing.
Eternal empathy? Never read that in the bible. Nor does empathy have to do with OCD.

K Hagin Sr an occult teacher I'm sure the many healed and ministered through his dedication to the Lord would disagree. He himself was healed in spite of a dismal prognosis from Drs. Yes, eternal empathy is what I see in the gift of Jesus and His shed Blood and God's unconditional love. Jesus, Mt 10:8 '...heal the sick, cast out demons...' I don't pick out whose to do this, the Lord does.

 

[Angela53510]

Kenneth Hagin Sr, who I referred to was known for healing, as Kathryn Kuhlman, Smith Wigglesworth, and countless others. Jesus went around healing, Mk 5:34 + everyone else, and said we (believers) would do greater things than him. There are so many Scriptures on healing and miracles that I perceive as literal but I certainly wouldn't force anyone else to.

My bad! But, since Kenneth Copeland studied under Hagin, adopted his heretical doctrines, not just on healing but on many other things, my point remains. I guess you could say that Copeland is basically "grandfathered" into the clause. As for John 14:12, I think that context is important.

" ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ κἀκεῖνος ποιήσει, καὶ μείζονα τούτων ποιήσει, ὅτι ἐγὼ πρὸς τὸν πατέρα πορεύομαι·" John 14:12 Greek

"“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." John 14:12 ESV

First, this verse is part of Jesus' reply to Philip, who asked Jesus, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” (v. 8) Then, Jesus deals with their unbelief, and takes about his relationship to his Father. That is the context of this.

Up till this time, Jesus has always prayed to the Father, this time, he is saying in verse 13-14, that HE is the one who will be answering, when he goes to be with the Father.

"Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it." John 14:13-14 ESV

So, this passage is Trinitarian, and Jesus reaffirms what HE is doing! The Lord's Prayer directs us to pray to the Father, but in John 14, Jesus is giving one of his last teachings to his disciples, before he goes to the cross. He is showing that HE is God. That he answers prayer! So, is this passage about us? Not so much! It is about Jesus! He is God, and moreover, he is soon to die on the cross as an atonement for our sins.

Of course, the "great works" Jesus speaks of are what we do, through him. In fact, the greater works Jesus promised but not yet accomplished, are those of "taking away the sin of the world." (1:29), and baptizing in the Holy Spirit (1:33) Up till now, Jesus has turned water into wine, healed the sick, multiplied the loaves, but he has not, at least explicitly, forgiven or taken away anyone's sin. Clearly, something is missing!

That something is far greater than the "signs" as John calls them, that Jesus did while on earth, to fulfill prophecy as to who he was. And the real purpose of Jesus' incarnation was not to perform a few signs, wonderful as they were, but in fact, to go to the cross to reconcile us to God. He gave everything for us, and in obedience to his heavenly Father.

I think the greater works, have to be preaching the gospel, and leading people to Christ. John is very precise in his word usage. He does not use the words "greater signs" in John 14:12. He would have used the word "signs" if he meant miracles. While the other gospels do refer to what Jesus did, even they do NOT ever use the word "miracle." Only the longer ending of Mark 16, which is spurious. So, yes, Jesus did works. But what was his greatest work? Dying on the cross so we might be redeemed from sin. (And the rest of the Bible doesn't talk about miracles very much, either, although it records that God did many amazing things through the apostles, I will not deny!)

So, if that was truly Jesus greatest work, what are the greater works (not signs!) that we will do? Obviously, obeying his Great Commission in Matt 28, to preach the gospel to all the world.

"And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Matt 28:17-20.

So, what did these disciples doubt??? This was Jesus in front of them! Risen from the dead! Did they doubt what Jesus said next? That they were going to spread the gospel? Because, they could not doubt the resurrection, Jesus was right there! They could not doubt the signs and wonders, because they saw Jesus do them. I think that what they doubted, contrary to what some teach, is that they doubted that they were going to preach the gospel to the whole world.

And in fact, that was always Plan A. Plan A was to preach the gospel to all the nations. There was never a Plan B, about miracles being the "greater works!" Jesus offered the forgiveness of sins to the world. There is no greater work than that.

And getting back to the book of John, always remember the context! John 14, 15 and 16 go together. What does Jesus say in John 15:26-27?

"“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning." John 15:26-27

The Helper, Advocate or Spirit is going to help us "bear witness about Jesus." What happens next? "You, (meaning we, these days!) will also bear witness. Read John 14-16 in context, followed by Jesus high priestly prayer in John 17 and there is nary a sign or miracle in sight! Instead, Jesus is talking about salvation and forgiveness of sin. And preaching it! What does John 16 say?

"Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged." John 16:7-11

John 16 says the Spirit is going to come to convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. This is the gospel! The gospel is about receiving forgiveness from sin!

Wow, glad I did this little study! I knew the Word Faith use of this verse was wrong, wrong, wrong! I just didn't realize what a self centred false gospel it was in twisting this verse to make it about healing and miracles, instead of about the central doctrine of the Bible - Jesus dying on the cross, redeeming us, and then that we are supposed to bring the world to him!

 

[PennEd]

Okay, a little introduction about me and my mental health. Since the age 12, I had always had an obsessional worry that sometimes produces unwanted thoughts, mental images and feelings for example at the age 12 I had unwanted thoughts about God & Jesus to the point not wanted to pray, see images or go to church without triggering a disgusting thought. Then, later on, I start worrying about committing the unpardonable sins. (I still think about once in a while) somewhere either on mid-2014 or 2015 I overcame the unwanted thoughts and feelings relating to Jesus and god and then I developed a fear of being about a pedophile too the point I stop interacting or barely interacted with family members that had young children and hated going to areas that had children nearby even as far as not watching movies that contain children. Which in turn affected my social skills. I overcame the fear of being a pedophile in late 2017 along with few others. Now my anxiety is 10x times worse than before to point it's sometimes plain stupid like fear of food and yellow or worrying about having early onset Alzheimer's even tho I am 17 years old and many many more that come and goes even the fears I had overcome. As of now, I am highly hypervigilant of what I say, do think, behave, and my thought process and feelings. My main fear is being a sociopath but my obsessional fears go back and forth in a matter of minutes, hours or days.

Sorry about what you are going through, but there are an awful lot of "I"s, and "my"s in your post!

The enemy has you so focused on your faults and temptations that there is no time or room for the cure. Jesus Christ.

Get out and help people. Thonk about THEIR problems and concerns, and this will take your mind off YOUR problems and concerns.

The enemie's purpose is to steal, kill, and destroy. That's his mission. Recognize this is what he is attempting to do you.

Take every thought captive and give it to the Lord.

He loves you. We love you. Now you love others.

 

[TabinRivCA]

My bad! But, since Kenneth Copeland studied under Hagin, adopted his heretical doctrines, not just on healing but on many other things, my point remains. I guess you could say that Copeland is basically "grandfathered" into the clause. As for John 14:12, I think that context is important.

" ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ κἀκεῖνος ποιήσει, καὶ μείζονα τούτων ποιήσει, ὅτι ἐγὼ πρὸς τὸν πατέρα πορεύομαι·" John 14:12 Greek

"“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." John 14:12 ESV

First, this verse is part of Jesus' reply to Philip, who asked Jesus, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” (v. 8) Then, Jesus deals with their unbelief, and takes about his relationship to his Father. That is the context of this.

Up till this time, Jesus has always prayed to the Father, this time, he is saying in verse 13-14, that HE is the one who will be answering, when he goes to be with the Father.

"Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it." John 14:13-14 ESV

So, this passage is Trinitarian, and Jesus reaffirms what HE is doing! The Lord's Prayer directs us to pray to the Father, but in John 14, Jesus is giving one of his last teachings to his disciples, before he goes to the cross. He is showing that HE is God. That he answers prayer! So, is this passage about us? Not so much! It is about Jesus! He is God, and moreover, he is soon to die on the cross as an atonement for our sins.

Of course, the "great works" Jesus speaks of are what we do, through him. In fact, the greater works Jesus promised but not yet accomplished, are those of "taking away the sin of the world." (1:29), and baptizing in the Holy Spirit (1:33) Up till now, Jesus has turned water into wine, healed the sick, multiplied the loaves, but he has not, at least explicitly, forgiven or taken away anyone's sin. Clearly, something is missing!

That something is far greater than the "signs" as John calls them, that Jesus did while on earth, to fulfill prophecy as to who he was. And the real purpose of Jesus' incarnation was not to perform a few signs, wonderful as they were, but in fact, to go to the cross to reconcile us to God. He gave everything for us, and in obedience to his heavenly Father.

I think the greater works, have to be preaching the gospel, and leading people to Christ. John is very precise in his word usage. He does not use the words "greater signs" in John 14:12. He would have used the word "signs" if he meant miracles. While the other gospels do refer to what Jesus did, even they do NOT ever use the word "miracle." Only the longer ending of Mark 16, which is spurious. So, yes, Jesus did works. But what was his greatest work? Dying on the cross so we might be redeemed from sin. (And the rest of the Bible doesn't talk about miracles very much, either, although it records that God did many amazing things through the apostles, I will not deny!)

So, if that was truly Jesus greatest work, what are the greater works (not signs!) that we will do? Obviously, obeying his Great Commission in Matt 28, to preach the gospel to all the world.

"And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Matt 28:17-20.

So, what did these disciples doubt??? This was Jesus in front of them! Risen from the dead! Did they doubt what Jesus said next? That they were going to spread the gospel? Because, they could not doubt the resurrection, Jesus was right there! They could not doubt the signs and wonders, because they saw Jesus do them. I think that what they doubted, contrary to what some teach, is that they doubted that they were going to preach the gospel to the whole world.

And in fact, that was always Plan A. Plan A was to preach the gospel to all the nations. There was never a Plan B, about miracles being the "greater works!" Jesus offered the forgiveness of sins to the world. There is no greater work than that.

And getting back to the book of John, always remember the context! John 14, 15 and 16 go together. What does Jesus say in John 15:26-27?

"“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning." John 15:26-27

The Helper, Advocate or Spirit is going to help us "bear witness about Jesus." What happens next? "You, (meaning we, these days!) will also bear witness. Read John 14-16 in context, followed by Jesus high priestly prayer in John 17 and there is nary a sign or miracle in sight! Instead, Jesus is talking about salvation and forgiveness of sin. And preaching it! What does John 16 say?

"Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged." John 16:7-11

John 16 says the Spirit is going to come to convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. This is the gospel! The gospel is about receiving forgiveness from sin!

Wow, glad I did this little study! I knew the Word Faith use of this verse was wrong, wrong, wrong! I just didn't realize what a self centred false gospel it was in twisting this verse to make it about healing and miracles, instead of about the central doctrine of the Bible - Jesus dying on the cross, redeeming us, and then that we are supposed to bring the world to him!

Nice research, I also like Mk 16:17 Jesus says 'And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My Name they shall cast out demons, speak in new tongues .....they will lay hands on the sick and they will be made well...'.

 

[Angela53510]

Nice research, I also like Mk 16:17 Jesus says 'And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My Name they shall cast out demons, speak in new tongues .....they will lay hands on the sick and they will be made well...'.

Again, the longer ending of Mark, including your quote Mark 16:17, is spurious. Do you know what that means? It means it was added much later, and does not appear in the earliest manuscripts. This is important!! Do we want to base our doctrine on a text that Mark didn't write?

Now, I grant that after Mark 16:8 seems cut off, especially in Greek. The last work of Mark 16:8 is γάρ or "for." In Greek, you don't end a sentence with gar, ever! So, something definitely came after. But was it the shorter ending, the intermediate ending or the longer ending? I vote none of the above.

As one commentary says of the longer ending:

It is virtually certain that Mark 16:9-20 is a later addition and not the original ending of this gospel. Since none of the autograph copies of NT documents survives (the actual version written by the author) the NT is constructed of later copies. They date from 135 AD to about 1200 AD. About 6000 of these copies exist, they range from a little larger than a postage stamp (the Rylands papyrus) to complete manuscripts of the entire Bible. Generally, these manuscripts show remarkable agreement, however Mark is the exception to this rule and presents the gravest textual problem in the NT.

The two oldest manuscripts Codex Vaticanus (B) and Codex Sinaiticus (א) omit 16:9-20 as do several other early translations of versions including the Old Latin, the Sinaitic Syriac manuscripts, about 100 Armenian manuscripts and the two oldest Georgian manuscripts. Neither Clement of Alexandria or Origen were aware of the existence of the longer ending (they never referred to it in their writings) and Eusebius and Jerome attest that vv 9-20 were absent from the majority of Greek copies known to them. Ammonius' unique system of cross-referencing parallel passages in the Gospels does not include Mark 16:9-20.

The textual evidence is totally against Mark 16:9-20 being part of the original gospel. This is important external evidence, and it cannot be ignored. Some modern translations like NIV do not include it at all, but most modern versions have notes or square brackets[] indicating it is spurious or not in the original manuscript.

Internal evidence is overwhelmingly against the longer ending being part of the gospel, too!

1. Verse 8 is the frightened and fleeing women, verse 9 begins by presupposing the resurrected Jesus, who appears to Mary Magdalene. She is introduced as a newcomer, "out of whom [Jesus] had driven seven demons." v 9, although Mark has mentioned her three times before (Mark 15:40, 47, 16:1)

2. In vv 9-20 for the first time in Mark, Jesus is referred to as the "Lord Jesus" v.19 or simply "the Lord" v. 20, rather than Mark's custom of calling Jesus by his given name. Such reverential nomenclature likely derives from later Christian worship.

3. Particularly noticeable in the longer ending of Mark are the number of new words that appear no where else in Mark. In the shorter version of Mark nine of 34 words are new, and in the longer ending there are an additional 18 words that otherwise do not appear in Mark, plus several unique word forms and syntactical constructions. Several of Mark's signature stylistic features are absent from the longer ending.

4. The repeated chastisement of the disciples for their "disbelief" v 11, 14, 16: the gospel proclamation; and the prominence given to charismatic signs in vv 17-18 stands in stark contrast to the reserve of Jesus in Mark with regards to signs and wonders.

External and internal evidence necessitates the conclusion that 16:9-20 is not the original ending of Mark, but rather a later addition, which is in fact, incongruous addition.

*James R. Edwards, The Gospel According to Mark, The Pillar New Testament Commentary, (Grand Rapids Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2002), 497-499.

 

[TabinRivCA]

Again, the longer ending of Mark, including your quote Mark 16:17, is spurious. Do you know what that means? It means it was added much later, and does not appear in the earliest manuscripts. This is important!! Do we want to base our doctrine on a text that Mark didn't write?

Now, I grant that after Mark 16:8 seems cut off, especially in Greek. The last work of Mark 16:8 is γάρ or "for." In Greek, you don't end a sentence with gar, ever! So, something definitely came after. But was it the shorter ending, the intermediate ending or the longer ending? I vote none of the above.

As one commentary says of the longer ending:

It is virtually certain that Mark 16:9-20 is a later addition and not the original ending of this gospel. Since none of the autograph copies of NT documents survives (the actual version written by the author) the NT is constructed of later copies. They date from 135 AD to about 1200 AD. About 6000 of these copies exist, they range from a little larger than a postage stamp (the Rylands papyrus) to complete manuscripts of the entire Bible. Generally, these manuscripts show remarkable agreement, however Mark is the exception to this rule and presents the gravest textual problem in the NT.

The two oldest manuscripts Codex Vaticanus (B) and Codex Sinaiticus (א) omit 16:9-20 as do several other early translations of versions including the Old Latin, the Sinaitic Syriac manuscripts, about 100 Armenian manuscripts and the two oldest Georgian manuscripts. Neither Clement of Alexandria or Origen were aware of the existence of the longer ending (they never referred to it in their writings) and Eusebius and Jerome attest that vv 9-20 were absent from the majority of Greek copies known to them. Ammonius' unique system of cross-referencing parallel passages in the Gospels does not include Mark 16:9-20.

The textual evidence is totally against Mark 16:9-20 being part of the original gospel. This is important external evidence, and it cannot be ignored. Some modern translations like NIV do not include it at all, but most modern versions have notes or square brackets[] indicating it is spurious or not in the original manuscript.

Internal evidence is overwhelmingly against the longer ending being part of the gospel, too!

1. Verse 8 is the frightened and fleeing women, verse 9 begins by presupposing the resurrected Jesus, who appears to Mary Magdalene. She is introduced as a newcomer, "out of whom [Jesus] had driven seven demons." v 9, although Mark has mentioned her three times before (Mark 15:40, 47, 16:1)

2. In vv 9-20 for the first time in Mark, Jesus is referred to as the "Lord Jesus" v.19 or simply "the Lord" v. 20, rather than Mark's custom of calling Jesus by his given name. Such reverential nomenclature likely derives from later Christian worship.

3. Particularly noticeable in the longer ending of Mark are the number of new words that appear no where else in Mark. In the shorter version of Mark nine of 34 words are new, and in the longer ending there are an additional 18 words that otherwise do not appear in Mark, plus several unique word forms and syntactical constructions. Several of Mark's signature stylistic features are absent from the longer ending.

4. The repeated chastisement of the disciples for their "disbelief" v 11, 14, 16: the gospel proclamation; and the prominence given to charismatic signs in vv 17-18 stands in stark contrast to the reserve of Jesus in Mark with regards to signs and wonders.

External and internal evidence necessitates the conclusion that 16:9-20 is not the original ending of Mark, but rather a later addition, which is in fact, incongruous addition.

*James R. Edwards, The Gospel According to Mark, The Pillar New Testament Commentary, (Grand Rapids Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2002), 497-499.

Sorry, remind me what your point here is, thx.

 

[CharliRenee]

Clear River, have you looked into medication for your anxiety?

A brain is easy to drive, but hard to steer. Over time, you've wired your brain in some nasty fashion and it will take years to fix, once you figure out how to fix it. I can tell you how to fix it, but whether you follow through or not is up to you.

Very insightful, nice to see.