Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

[MattforJesus]

There is no pre-seven years resurrection of the saints, and the great tribulation is the last three and one half years.

Israel has 70 weeks, 490 years, to get in the truth, and anoint the most holy who is Jesus, which 69 weeks has passed, and the last week is the time that God causes all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom in Revelation 13, and turn Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

Israel is blinded in part, until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles, and so all Israel shall be saved.

When the man of sin, New Age Christ, establishes peace in the Middle East, it will pave the way for all the Jews to go to Israel, and the Jews will not be in the nations anymore, which is what the man of sin wants, but God means it for good.

The Jews will go back to animal sacrifices for they are still blinded in part with no hassle from the Palestinians, and the Jews will split Jerusalem with the Palestinians.

The Gentile nations will come together and say Peace and safety as they try to establish peace on earth, and the 7 years period will begin.

Paul said when they say Peace and safety the saints will not be deceived by that and will know it is not of God, and Jesus will deliver the saints from the temptation that shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell on earth, which the Bible says multitudes in the valley of decision, for the day of the LORD is in near in the valley of decision, for will they stay with God, get with God, or follow the world.

So the saints are on earth when the 7 years period starts.

Repentance and salvation are still available to the world during the first three and one half years, and the 6 trumpets are warnings to the world to turn to God, but after the 6th trumpet the world does not repent of their sins, and turn to God, and abandon their agenda of establishing a kingdom that acknowledges no personal God, but honors the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power, and believe in evolution, and they can still evolve to be greater and spiritual.

So God gives them the man of sin to rule over them for the last three and one half years.

And example is WW1, set up League of Nations, did not turn to God, WW2, set up United Nations, did not turn to God, and that pattern will continue until the 6th trumpet Islam against the world, which is so terrible that the world turns to the New Age Christ as the solution to have peace on earth.

When the people that do not love God follow the beast, and take the mark of the beast which has to do with technology, probably the microchip linked to satellite, then repentance and salvation are no longer available to the world, and the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in.

God will then turn Israel as a nation to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

The Bible says that the gathering of the saints unto Christ will not happen until there is a falling away first, which is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel, and the truth, which they prohibit the Gospel, and go by the new age movement and their false interpretation of the Bible based on the occult and evolution, and they interpret all religions that way, and is the unified religious system, and anything taught contrary to that is a hate crime, which is what sparked the war between Islam and the world.

At the end of the three and one half years the falling away first happened, which the Bible says when the transgressors are come to the full, then a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences shall stand up and deceive them, which the man of sin will exalt himself above all that is called God, or is worshipped, and will not regard the God of his fathers, nor regard any god, but in his estate he shall honor the God of forces, and a God his fathers knew not.

Then the saints can be gathered unto Christ.

But the beast makes war against the saints and prevails against them, and he shall destroy the mighty and holy people, and they are given in to his hands for three and one half years, and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people all things in Daniel are finished.

Which then comes the end when the Son shall deliver the kingdom up to the Father, when He shall have put down all His enemies, the last one being death.

At the end of the 7 years period the saints that remain shall then be caught up to Christ.

There is only 2 resurrections, the resurrection of the saints, and the resurrection of the dead 1000 years later.

Jesus said when the resurrection happens the hypocrites will not be with Jesus, and when He shuts the door then they cannot enter, so if it is a pre-seven years resurrection, there would not be any left behind saints, or tribulation saints, for nobody could get right with God after that, but the beast makes war against the Gentile saints for the last three and one half years, and the 2 witnesses are preaching to the Jews in Israel, and using force to put down their enemies, and turning the Jews to the truth, which the Bible says the nation of Israel is protected from physical attack for the 7 years period.

God said He will gather all nations together against Jerusalem and then go forth and fight against those nations as He did in the day of battle.

And the LORD my God shall come and all the saints with thee, and Jesus comes from heaven to fight the world and the saints are with Him, so they had to be caught up to come back with God.

 

[Locutus]

If you want to believe full preterism, more power to you. I think you have made a serious error. But you have to follow your convictions and I can respect that.

If you have really studied all the views in depth, the pros and cons of each, and believe full preterism is correct then I can always respect that.

I spent almost two years of intense study trying to "defeat" full preterism - in the end I lost.

I left behind the left behinds.

While FP can't explain every line of scripture it certainly makes more sense than the other eschatologies.

 

[Ahwatukee]

My quote from 2 Thessalonians is about the Lord returning on the last day and what happens that day. I don't believe the Lord already returned in 70 a.d. which is what you seem to be implying. That is a belief of preterists.

I have not so much have inferred that you are claiming that the Lord already returned in 70 Ad. You'll not find that in any of my posts.

You are also making the same ASSUMPTION that the "last day" is a period that lasts over 1,000 years. Logic should tell you that that is ridiculous. You must do this or your entire system of premillennialism falls apart.

I also did not claim that the thousand years last longer than a thousand years. Let me establish some definitions for you:

The gathering of the church (Rapture) = the Lord descends from heaven in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 where He went to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare places for all believers. I Thess.4:13-17 is a detailed account of the fulfillment of the Lord's return to gather the church and take us back to the Father's house, which again is in heaven.

The Wrath of God = Also called "the day of the Lord" and "the hour of trial" which will take place after the church has been removed from the earth. God's wrath will be carried out via the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring. This time of wrath will take place during the last seven years of the seventy seven year periods prophesied by Daniel and will be initiated by that ruler, the antichrist when he establishes his seven year covenant with many for one seven.

The Great Tribulation Saints = The group of white robed saints which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles), who are those who will become believers after the church is has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. These saints are those who are referred to starting from Rev.5:8 and onward.

The Second Coming = Christ returns to the earth visually and physically to end the age, with His angels and the church following behind him - (Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 17:14 and 19:11-21)

Thousand year reign of Christ = A literal thousand years with Christ reigning over the earth, with the resurrected church, great tribulation saints and the 144,000 reigning with the Lord in their immortal and glorified bodies. The millennial kingdom will begin when the Lord returns at the second coming

Also, Jesus never said he was going to rule and reign on earth from Jerusalem. You got that from dispensation teachers.

That might be true if I had any dispensation teachers, which I don't. All of my conclusions are based on my own personal studies and not the teachings of men. But in regards of Jesus ruling from Jerusalem, here are some of the scriptures to support what you said doesn't exist:

"The whole assembly fell silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul describing the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. When they had finished speaking, James declared, “Brothers, listen to me! Simon has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own. The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:

‘After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent.

Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,

so that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,

and all the Gentiles who bear My name,

says the Lord who does these things

that have been known for ages.’

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We also have the angel telling Mary the mother of Jesus the following:

"Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. So the angel told her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you shall give Him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful
Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end.

He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore.

[quote[ You will not find one verse to support it in the New Testament where Jesus he is going to do that. In fact he says the exact opposite when standing before Pilate in John 18: 36, "My kingdom is not of this world."[/quote]

Well as you can see, I have provide a couple of verses regarding the prophecy of Jesus ruling from the throne of king David which you said I would not find. And regarding when Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world," He was speaking about at that time. In other words, He was meant to go back to heaven after His resurrection and not to be crowned as the king of Israel and uproot the Roman empire, which is what the leaders of Israel and the people wanted. However, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, then He will rule this earth, with his called, chosen and faithful followers ruling with him for a literal thousand years.

It is a spiritual kingdom that lives and reigns in men and women's hearts and is advancing in the world through the proclamation of the gospel.

The above is just a repeated false apologetic. The millennial kingdom will be a literal thousand year period, where at which time Satan will be restricted to the Abyss, which is under the earth, so that he is unable to have any kind of exposure or influence upon the inhabitants during the millennial kingdom.

Luke 17: 20-21, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation. They will not say, 'See here or see there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." It is not a carnal kingdom for 1,000 years in Jerusalem.

Regarding the above where Jesus said, "the kingdom of God is within you," it is better interpreted as "the kingdom of God is among you" with Jesus referring to himself as the kingdom of God being among them.

The rest of your post is just dispensational teaching that does not come from the Bible. If you continue to insist that the "last day" is over 1,000 years long then it will be hard for you to see things differently.

Once again I have never said that the thousand years were any longer than a thousand years. It is you who continue to say that, but I have never said it. The thousands begins when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, which is the same time when Satan is confined to the Abyss and when the great tribulation saints are resurrected.

 

[delirious]

That tells me that you did not read my post. Therefore, here is an excerpt from it showing the chronological order of end-time events:


* We are here

* The Lord descends and gathers His church (Rapture)

* The ruler/antichrist establishes his seven year covenant

* The wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment are in operation throughout the seven years

* The Lord returns to the earth to end the age after the 7th bowl has been poured out (second coming)

* The beast and false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire, alive

* Satan is thrown into the Abyss and is sealed in it during that thousand year reign of Christ

* Great tribulation saints are resurrected and reign with Christ during the thousand years

* Satan is released at the end of the thousand years for one last rebellion

* Great white thrown judgment of the unrighteous dead takes place

* This current heaven and earth pass away

* New heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem - the eternal state

I did read your post. So you are a pre-tribber. That makes your position even worse. You have the rapture happening roughly 7 years prior to ANOTHER return of Christ. Two returns in seven years. A second and third coming.

The other MAJOR problem you have with your timeline above is you have saints being raised on the "last day" which somehow is more than 7 years before the "last day" of this age and the start of your millennium.

I already gave you John 12: 48 which says the wicked and righteous are judged the same day. The last day.

The only way the premillennialist has to get around this is to twist Scripture and say the last day is over 1,007 years long. Where do they get that from the Bible? They don't. It's dispensational teaching to try and support an unscriptural position.

How do you answer Job 14: 12? "So man does not rise till the heavens are no more. They will not awake or be roused from their sleep."

You have people being resurrected when there is still a heavens.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

REVELATION 4-7 ONE RAPTURE OR TWO RAPTURES
​

One rapture for the church saints and another rapture for the tribulation saints.

 

[delirious]

As I said in my previous post, you are interpreting "I will raise them up at the last day" as referring to one specific day. However, just as "the day of the Lord" and "the hour of trial" are neither a day, nor an hour in length, neither is the "last day" that the Lord is referring to. What He is saying is that He will raise them up during the end times. As proof of this, the "first resurrection" has phases or stages to it with Jesus being the first fruits, followed by the dead and the living of the church, then later the male child/144,000, the two witnesses and then the great tribulation saints when Christ returns to the earth to end the age.

In order to come to a right conclusion, it is important to understand that the gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. When you or others have the church being gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, then you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer. So right of the bat you have a enormous problem, since believers cannot go through the time of God's wrath.



All the above is saying is that we cannot inherit the kingdom of God in these mortal bodies, which is followed by Paul saying, "behold I show you a mystery. We shall not all be dead, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. For the dead shall rise first and then we who are still alive will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This event of the gathering of the church is a separate event vs. when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

Therefore regarding your statement above, the church will have been gathered by the Lord prior to His wrath, with those great tribulation saints who make it through the time of God's wrath, alive, as those who will populate the earth during the millennial kingdom, not the church. The church will have already been resurrected and caught up at least seven years earlier and will be in their immortal and glorified bodies and will be ruling with Christ during the His thousand year kingdom.



So according to your premill view you have people marrying and repopulating the earth. But according to Scripture there can be no marriage in the next age therefore there can be no repopulation.

Your error above is that you are not recognizing that there difference between the church and the great tribulation saints. The church is gathered prior to the beginning of God's wrath, which is initiated by the opening of the 1st seal. The great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17, are those who will have not been believers prior to the gathering of the church, but will become believer during that time. These are those



I never said that! The thousand years will be a literal thousand years, which will begin when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.



How convenient of you to pass it off those characteristics as being symbolic in order to get rid of its literal meaning. There not being any ferocity between pray and predator, the lion eating straw like the Ox and a child being able to put his hand into a vipers nest, is describing the peaceful characteristics of the millennial kingdom. Since we have never had a time in history since this was written, then the only time that could happen would be during the millennial kingdom.

Your conclusions are false. Consider the following: In Rev.19:6-8 we have the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in verse 14, we see the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen that she had just received.

All you are doing, like so many, are believing in and spreading false teachings.[/QUOTE]


If you don't get it from my original post you probably wont. Most of what you just said in your reply is dispensational teaching and not from the Bible.

It's all good. We can agree to disagree.

 

[SpoonJuly]

REVELATION 4-7 ONE RAPTURE OR TWO RAPTURES
​

One rapture for the church saints and another rapture for the tribulation saints.

So when are the OT saints raptured?
How many "raptures" will take place?

 

[delirious]

I have not so much have inferred that you are claiming that the Lord already returned in 70 Ad. You'll not find that in any of my posts.



I also did not claim that the thousand years last longer than a thousand years. Let me establish some definitions for you:

The gathering of the church (Rapture) = the Lord descends from heaven in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 where He went to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare places for all believers. I Thess.4:13-17 is a detailed account of the fulfillment of the Lord's return to gather the church and take us back to the Father's house, which again is in heaven.

The Wrath of God = Also called "the day of the Lord" and "the hour of trial" which will take place after the church has been removed from the earth. God's wrath will be carried out via the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring. This time of wrath will take place during the last seven years of the seventy seven year periods prophesied by Daniel and will be initiated by that ruler, the antichrist when he establishes his seven year covenant with many for one seven.

The Great Tribulation Saints = The group of white robed saints which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles), who are those who will become believers after the church is has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. These saints are those who are referred to starting from Rev.5:8 and onward.

The Second Coming = Christ returns to the earth visually and physically to end the age, with His angels and the church following behind him - (Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 17:14 and 19:11-21)

Thousand year reign of Christ = A literal thousand years with Christ reigning over the earth, with the resurrected church, great tribulation saints and the 144,000 reigning with the Lord in their immortal and glorified bodies. The millennial kingdom will begin when the Lord returns at the second coming



That might be true if I had any dispensation teachers, which I don't. All of my conclusions are based on my own personal studies and not the teachings of men. But in regards of Jesus ruling from Jerusalem, here are some of the scriptures to support what you said doesn't exist:

"The whole assembly fell silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul describing the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. When they had finished speaking, James declared, “Brothers, listen to me! Simon has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own. The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:

‘After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent.

Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,

so that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,

and all the Gentiles who bear My name,

says the Lord who does these things

that have been known for ages.’

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We also have the angel telling Mary the mother of Jesus the following:

"Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. So the angel told her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you shall give Him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful
Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end.

He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore.

[quote[ You will not find one verse to support it in the New Testament where Jesus he is going to do that. In fact he says the exact opposite when standing before Pilate in John 18: 36, "My kingdom is not of this world."

Well as you can see, I have provide a couple of verses regarding the prophecy of Jesus ruling from the throne of king David which you said I would not find. And regarding when Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world," He was speaking about at that time. In other words, He was meant to go back to heaven after His resurrection and not to be crowned as the king of Israel and uproot the Roman empire, which is what the leaders of Israel and the people wanted. However, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, then He will rule this earth, with his called, chosen and faithful followers ruling with him for a literal thousand years.



The above is just a repeated false apologetic. The millennial kingdom will be a literal thousand year period, where at which time Satan will be restricted to the Abyss, which is under the earth, so that he is unable to have any kind of exposure or influence upon the inhabitants during the millennial kingdom.



Regarding the above where Jesus said, "the kingdom of God is within you," it is better interpreted as "the kingdom of God is among you" with Jesus referring to himself as the kingdom of God being among them.



Once again I have never said that the thousand years were any longer than a thousand years. It is you who continue to say that, but I have never said it. The thousands begins when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, which is the same time when Satan is confined to the Abyss and when the great tribulation saints are resurrected.[/QUOTE]


Ruling from the throne of David is not the same as ruling from an earthly Jerusalem. You found no verses to support that. Jesus never said he would rule from this earth in Jerusalem. He never will. He rules from the right hand of the Father in heaven (which the throne of David is a symbolic reference too) when he will return, one time, to judge everyone and create the new heavens and new earth.

You may say you don't have any dispensational teachers but that is definitely the books you have been reading. Most of what you said is dispensational teaching and does not come from the Bible. I can tell that you can't see that because of the amalgamation that dispensational teachers do with those texts. You can only see them one way now with one specific timeline.

Once again, you have people being resurrected when there is still a heavens. Job 14: 12 says they won't be until the heavens are no more. Who is right?



It's all good.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

So when are the OT saints raptured?
How many "raptures" will take place?

The thread 'splains it . . .

 

[SpoonJuly]

REVELATION 4-7 ONE RAPTURE OR TWO RAPTURES
​

One rapture for the church saints and another rapture for the tribulation saints.

The thread 'splains it . . .

Disappointed you did not answer my question.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I did read your post. So you are a pre-tribber. That makes your position even worse. You have the rapture happening roughly 7 years prior to ANOTHER return of Christ. Two returns in seven years. A second and third coming.

Regarding the above, this is where you and others err and that by not recognizing that there is a difference between the event of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. These are two separate events with two different purposes. When the church is gathered the Lord does not return to the earth, but only catch up to meet the church in the air where He will then take the entire church back to the Father's house (in heaven) to those places that He went to prepare for us so that where He is we may be also. (John 14:1-3)

The other MAJOR problem you have with your timeline above is you have saints being raised on the "last day" which somehow is more than 7 years before the "last day" of this age and the start of your millennium.

As I continue to tell you, the "last day" is not a specific single day. What Jesus is saying is that he will raise them up during the end times and that because there are several resurrections, which do not and cannot take place at the same time. Therefore, the first resurrection is made up of phases or stages. Everyone who takes part in one of those phases belong to the first resurrection. It is those who are resurrected after the thousand years and during the great white throne judgment, who do not belong to the first resurrection and because of this the second death will have power over them. When the scripture states that "the rest of the dead did not come to life until after the thousand years have completed" it is because they will have not been worth to take part in the first resurrection. These will be people whose spirits will be resurrected out of Sheol/Hades throughout all of history. The books will be opened and they will be judged according to all of their sins, every idle word that they will have spoken. Neither the church, nor the 144,000, not the great tribulation saints will be judged at the great white throne judgment.

I already gave you John 12: 48 which says the wicked and righteous are judged the same day. The last day.

Below is the scripture:

"There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. "

I don't know why you would use that scripture to claim that both the righteous and the wicked are judged at the great white throne judgment (last judgment), because it does not support your claim. If you will read the scripture above, it states that "there is a judge for the one who [rejects me and does not receive my word], which would not include the righteous. After the church is gathered and taken back to the Father's house, then we will stand before the Bema Seat of Christ and will be judged, not for sin, but for rewards or loss of rewards.

 

[delirious]

There is only 2 resurrections, the resurrection of the saints, and the resurrection of the dead 1000 years later.

And the LORD my God shall come and all the saints with thee, and Jesus comes from heaven to fight the world and the saints are with Him, so they had to be caught up to come back with God.

You should read my original post. It disproves any possibility of a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. I have shown from the post that their is only one physical resurrection that happens and it is after the "1,000 years". The "first resurrection" is a spiritual one for people who put their faith in Christ. The "second resurrection" is the one when all people, both just and unjust, are raised after the 1,000 years. Please read my post carefully and you will see that a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Disappointed you did not answer my question.

Look, I'm not going to reinvent the wheel for you. It is contained in the link. I'm busy doing other things for the Lord.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Look, I'm not going to reinvent the wheel for you. It is contained in the link. I'm busy doing other things for the Lord.

WOW! Did not mean to interrupt your hours of posting on this site.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Your error above is that you are not recognizing that there difference between the church and the great tribulation saints. The church is gathered prior to the beginning of God's wrath, which is initiated by the opening of the 1st seal. The great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17, are those who will have not been believers prior to the gathering of the church, but will become believer during that time. These are those



I never said that! The thousand years will be a literal thousand years, which will begin when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.



How convenient of you to pass it off those characteristics as being symbolic in order to get rid of its literal meaning. There not being any ferocity between pray and predator, the lion eating straw like the Ox and a child being able to put his hand into a vipers nest, is describing the peaceful characteristics of the millennial kingdom. Since we have never had a time in history since this was written, then the only time that could happen would be during the millennial kingdom.

Your conclusions are false. Consider the following: In Rev.19:6-8 we have the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in verse 14, we see the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen that she had just received.

All you are doing, like so many, are believing in and spreading false teachings.

If you don't get it from my original post you probably wont. Most of what you just said in your reply is dispensational teaching and not from the Bible.

It's all good. We can agree to disagree.[/QUOTE]

Well, that would be pretty difficult seeing that the information above is from my own studies in scripture. I don't follow any teachers. So, you assumption is just that, an assumption and a false one.

Regarding "we can agree to disagree" I'm afraid it is not that simple, because you are distorting the word of God with your teaching. And Regarding false teachings about Revelation, the following warning is given:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

This is what you are doing on many levels by your teaching.

 

[delirious]

Regarding the above, this is where you and others err and that by not recognizing that there is a difference between the event of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. These are two separate events with two different purposes. When the church is gathered the Lord does not return to the earth, but only catch up to meet the church in the air where He will then take the entire church back to the Father's house (in heaven) to those places that He went to prepare for us so that where He is we may be also. (John 14:1-3)



As I continue to tell you, the "last day" is not a specific single day. What Jesus is saying is that he will raise them up during the end times and that because there are several resurrections, which do not and cannot take place at the same time. Therefore, the first resurrection is made up of phases or stages. Everyone who takes part in one of those phases belong to the first resurrection. It is those who are resurrected after the thousand years and during the great white throne judgment, who do not belong to the first resurrection and because of this the second death will have power over them. When the scripture states that "the rest of the dead did not come to life until after the thousand years have completed" it is because they will have not been worth to take part in the first resurrection. These will be people whose spirits will be resurrected out of Sheol/Hades throughout all of history. The books will be opened and they will be judged according to all of their sins, every idle word that they will have spoken. Neither the church, nor the 144,000, not the great tribulation saints will be judged at the great white throne judgment.



Below is the scripture:

"There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. "

I don't know why you would use that scripture to claim that both the righteous and the wicked are judged at the great white throne judgment (last judgment), because it does not support your claim. If you will read the scripture above, it states that "there is a judge for the one who [rejects me and does not receive my word], which would not include the righteous. After the church is gathered and taken back to the Father's house, then we will stand before the Bema Seat of Christ and will be judged, not for sin, but for rewards or loss of rewards.

Sir, you keep quoting dispensational teaching as if it is Scripture. You are saying that the "secret rapture" doesn't count as a coming. Who decided that? Dispensationalists. It is obviously a coming. You have a second and third coming which Scripture knows nothing about.

You also say the last day stretches for a 1,000 years. You don't get that from the Bible either. More dispensational teaching. Show me where in the Bible any of the writers said the last day = 1,000 years. That is ludicrous. You must do that to make your system work.

Technically, you can say there are two phases to the resurrection. Christ the first fruits and those that are His at His coming. There is one resurrection. The just and unjust on the same day which is the Great White Throne judgment.

Everything you keep saying is just dispensational timeline and not Scripture. I know that you think it is Scripture but it is an amalgamation of dispensational teaching to produce a certain timeline of events to make a pre-trib rapture and 1,000 year reign work. The problem is those Scriptures don't support it like you think they do.

You still haven't answered my question about Job 14: 12. You have people resurrected while there is still a heavens when Scripture says there will not be a heavens when people are resurrected.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You should read my original post. It disproves any possibility of a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. I have shown from the post that their is only one physical resurrection that happens and it is after the "1,000 years". The "first resurrection" is a spiritual one for people who put their faith in Christ. The "second resurrection" is the one when all people, both just and unjust, are raised after the 1,000 years. Please read my post carefully and you will see that a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible.

Your claim above shows that you are in error, for there multiple resurrections which belong to the first resurrection. So you're telling us that Jesus being the first fruits of the first resurrection takes place at the same time when the church is resurrected? Or that the resurrection of the two witnesses, which clearly takes place in the middle of the seven years took place at the same time as when Jesus was resurrected?

Remember, Jesus is the first fruits of the first resurrection. Since then, no one else nor any other group has been resurrected. The church is next. What causes the problem with expositors, is the use of the word "first" as in "first resurrection. "First" does not mean "only." It just so happens that the resurrection of the great tribulation saints found in Rev.20:4-6, referred to as the "first resurrection," yet there are previous resurrections which also belong to the first resurrection, which I've already mentioned.

 

[delirious]

If you don't get it from my original post you probably wont. Most of what you just said in your reply is dispensational teaching and not from the Bible.

It's all good. We can agree to disagree.

Well, that would be pretty difficult seeing that the information above is from my own studies in scripture. I don't follow any teachers. So, you assumption is just that, an assumption and a false one.

Regarding "we can agree to disagree" I'm afraid it is not that simple, because you are distorting the word of God with your teaching. And Regarding false teachings about Revelation, the following warning is given:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

This is what you are doing on many levels by your teaching.[/QUOTE]


Your misquoting Scripture again. That warning is about anybody writing or erasing words from the scroll/book. Has nothing to do with interpretation. If what you say is true then nobody should ever attempt to interpret Revelation or they may lose out on the tree of life.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Sir, you keep quoting dispensational teaching as if it is Scripture.

That's because it is and that is where I got if from, the Bible.

You are saying that the "secret rapture" doesn't count as a coming. Who decided that? Dispensationalists. It is obviously a coming. You have a second and third coming which Scripture knows nothing about.

First of all your reference to "secret rapture" is meant to discredit it. I know these tricks. I Thess.4:13-17 describes in detail the gathering of the church. It is an event that is described as taking place in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. The word "Atomos" translated "a moment" is defined as a length of time to short to divide.

In opposition, at the end of the seven years, after the 7th bowl has been poured out, ending God's wrath, the Lord will visually and physically return to the earth to end the age. When He gathers the church He does not return to the earth and does not end the age. Until you understand that there is a difference between these two events, you will always be in error regarding end-time events. As is it is, by your belief, you have the living church going through the entire wrath of God, which Jesus already suffered on every believers behalf - Rom.5:9, I Thess.1:10, 5:9 and Rev.3:10.

You also say the last day stretches for a 1,000 years. You don't get that from the Bible either. More dispensational teaching. Show me where in the Bible any of the writers said the last day = 1,000 years. That is ludicrous. You must do that to make your system work.

NO, I do not! You are the one who keeps insisting that I am saying that, yet I have never said that. So please stop claiming that is what I am saying. You're getting hung up on phases.

Technically, you can say there are two phases to the resurrection. Christ the first fruits and those that are His at His coming. There is one resurrection. The just and unjust on the same day which is the Great White Throne judgment.

First of all, I did not say that there were "two phases" but several phases to the first resurrection. Allow me to show you your error:

"But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered the two witnesses, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell upon those who saw them. And the witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched them."

The last seven years of the seventy sevens decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, according to Dan.9:27, divided into two 3 1/2 year periods with the setting up of the abomination marking the middle of the seven. The two witnesses are said to prophecy for 1260 (3 1/2 years) days, which begins from the beginning of the seven years until the setting up of the abomination in the middle of the seven years, where they are killed after the beast comes out of the Abyss. Therefore, their resurrection takes place in the middle of the seven years and also belongs to the first resurrection. Therefore, if they are resurrected in the middle of the seven years and the great tribulation saints are resurrected 3 1/2 years later when Jesus returns to end the age, how can all of the phases of the first resurrection take place at the same time? It's impossible! Not only that, but Jesus initiated the first resurrection and it is still in operation with the church being next.

You still haven't answered my question about Job 14: 12. You have people resurrected while there is still a heavens when Scripture says there will not be a heavens when people are resurrected.

"so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no more, he will not be awakened or roused from his sleep."

So, you are going stand on the scripture above while ignoring all of the other scriptures which show resurrections taking place before this heaven and earth disappear? Tell me, what do you do with the six references to "a thousands" in Revelation 20:1-7? What are you doing to get rid of it? Because that is what you are doing. Have you ever considered that not all of the prophets, Job included, were privy to all end time events? As I already proved, the two witnesses and the great tribulation saints are resurrected prior to this current heaven and earth passing away. Instead of adopting a side of false teaching, why don't you compare and cross-reference all of the scriptures in order to come to a right conclusion.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

That's because it is and that is where I got if from, the Bible.

Yea, well he gets his doctrine from the council of Nicea. He doesn't like the Bible very much . . . maybe it sheds a little too much light where he don't want it shining.